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Subject: 1967 historical season - need help! rss

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Daniel Sundström
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I am planing on playing through the 1967 Formula One season using Formula Dé and Cafe Games' classic 60's cars that I've painted. Am posting my ideas for the season here to get your opinions on it.

So far I've got eight teams painted: BRM, Lotus, Cooper, Brabham, Ferrari, McLaren and Honda. Although McLaren and Honda only entered one car each in 1967 (and some of the others more than two on occasion), I have painted each team two cars each. However, to keep the historical accuracy I've decided to only let McLaren and Honda enter one car each (and the others two cars each). The line-up so far is:

Brabham-Repco: Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme
BRM: Jackie Stewart, Mike Spence
Cooper-Maserati: Jochen Rindt, Pedro Rodriquez
Eagle-Weslake: Dan Gurney, Richie Ginther
Ferrari: Chris Amon, Lorenzo Bandini
Honda: John Surtees
Lotus-Ford: Jim Clark, Graham Hill
McLaren-BRM: Bruce McLaren

So fourteen drivers so far. As I am looking to have a grid of twenty cars, I am contemplating on also adding the following:

Matra-Ford: Jean-Pierre Beltoise, Johnny Servoz-Gavin
Guy Ligier (Brabham-Repco): Guy Ligier
Joakim Bonnier Racing Team (Cooper-Maserati): Joakim Bonnier
Rob Walker Racing Team (Cooper-Maserati): Jo Siffert

That makes nineteen. The last entrant will have to wait, for now. As for the race tracks, this is what I've come up with in terms of Formula Dé circuits. I will try to use the most accurate circuit or replace it with something similar. All races will be three laps.

1. Kyalami, South Africa - need to get.
2. Monte Carlo, Monaco - own.
3. Zaandvort, the Netherlands - own (both).
4. Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium - own.
5. Le Mans Bugatti, France - will use Nevers Magny-Cours.
6. Silverstone, United Kingdom - need to get.
7. Nürburgring, Germany - own.
8. Mosport Park, Canada - will use Gilles Villeneuve.
9. Monza, Italy - own.
10. Watkins Glen, USA - need to get.
11. Hermanos Rodriguez, Mexico - suggestions?

So far so good, but my main problem right now is how to make the cars on the grid fit with real life performance. What I mean is, it is not likely that Joakim Bonnier should be able to perform just as well as the Brabhams during the season, as they were more competitive. To do this, I have come up with the idea of having different amount of Wear Points for each time based on how well they performed in real life. Something like this:

Brabham - 20 WP (67 points, 63 counted towards the championship)
Lotus - 18 WP (44 points)
Cooper - 16 WP (28)
Honda - 14 WP (20)
Ferrari - 14 WP (20)
BRM - 12 WP (17)
Eagle - 10 WP (13)
Rob Walker - 8 WP (6)
McLaren - 8 WP (3)
Joakim Bonnier - 8 WP (3)
Matra - 8 WP (0)
Ligier - 8 WP (0)

Thoughts on this? To much of a gap between the teams? This is what I need the most help with.

The point scoring system is the same as in 1967; 9-6-4-3-2-1 for the top six finishing drivers in each race. As for the constructors championship, only the best placed driver in each race will score points for that constructor (this is why Brabham-Repco "only" got 67 points in total despite the fact that Brabham and Hulme individualy scored 48 and 51 points respectively). Also, the best five results from the first six rounds and the best four results from the last five rounds will count towards the championship.

What are your thoughts on this as a whole? What should I change and how? What is good, what is not?

Thankful for all the feedback I can get!
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William Hoyt
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First things first!

Great idea! 1967 was a great year for F1! The rocket powered cigar cars were the epitome of power and panache!

Concerning the Works teams and Qualifying:

How will you be handling Qualifying? (per Historical Grid?) Dice roll? Or will you be doing a "Hot Lap" with each team?

I would look into Historical Data for for these myself. And if using a Die Roll, I would attach a +/- to the rolls based on the Drivers/Works previous performances.

Concerning tracks:

Both Bugatti and Hermanos Rodriguez Mexico tracks exist for Formula De.
The Mexico circuit is "offical" in so much as the track boxes, turns, etc were all done by the original designers of the game. They only released a black/white edition of it through the Formula De : World Championship.. You can see a picture of it in the Gallery.
A version of Mosport exists as well. I believe it was created a few years back. PM me if you are interested and cannot find them. You will only need to print them to use in your Championship.

Are you planning on running the 2 Zandvoort circuits together as one big track replicating the larger "original" Zandvoort circuit? I think that would be a really neat idea.





Concerning Wear Points:

I like the system you've devised. The numbers would probably need tweaked a bit after a few run. +2 points...maybe. What exactly are you going for here? A repeat of the real historical season? Or simply a season start bias on how well each teams was comparatively? It is my thinking that if those bottom rung teams win, they should get the (+2/+1) points for next race reflecting the larger purse, confidence they surely would have gotten.

~Will

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Simon Blackwell
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Hi, I played '67 a long while ago. From my records
The WP I used were:-
Brabham GB 20
Lotus GB 18
Cooper GB 16
Honda JAP 15
Ferrari IT 15
BRM GB 15
Eagle USA 14
McLaren GB 12
Matra FRA 10
LDS SAF 9
Lola GB 8

Drivers 18no.
Chris Amon NZ Ferrari IT
Mike Parkes GB Ferrari IT
Jackie Stewart GB BRM GB
Mike Spence GB BRM GB
Pedro Rodriguez MEX Cooper GB
Jochen Rindt AUT Cooper GB
Jim Clark GB Lotus GB
Graham Hill GB Lotus GB
Hubert Hahne GER Lola GB
Sam Tingle RHO LDS SAF
Denny Hulme NZ Brabham GB
Jack Brabham AUS Brabham GB
John Surtees GB Honda JAP
Bruce McLaren NZ McLaren GB
Dan Gurney USA Eagle USA
Richie Ginther USA Eagle USA
Johnny-Servoz Gavin FRA Matra FRA
John-Pierre Beltoise FRA Matra FRA

Reserve drivers or privateer entrants to replace injured 1st choice drivers:-
Ludovico Scarfiotti IT Ferrari IT
Lorenzo Bandini IT Ferrari IT
Chris Irwin GB BRM GB
David Hobbs GB BRM GB
Jo Siffert SWI Cooper GB
Jacky Ickx BEL Cooper GB
Giancarlo Baghetti IT Lotus GB
Moises Solana MEX Lotus GB
Bob Anderson GB Brabham GB
Guy Ligier FR Brabham GB
Al Pease CAN Eagle USA



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Daniel Sundström
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Floydski wrote:
How will you be handling Qualifying? (per Historical Grid?) Dice roll? Or will you be doing a "Hot Lap" with each team?

I haven't decide yet. The better teams should, in theory, be better at qualifying that the less competitive teams, so maybe some modifiers should be put in place, wether I go with the hotlaps or the roll of the dice. This requires some thought.

Floydski wrote:
Both Bugatti and Hermanos Rodriguez Mexico tracks exist for Formula De. The Mexico circuit is "offical" in so much as the track boxes, turns, etc were all done by the original designers of the game. They only released a black/white edition of it through the Formula De : World Championship.. You can see a picture of it in the Gallery. A version of Mosport exists as well. I believe it was created a few years back. PM me if you are interested and cannot find them. You will only need to print them to use in your Championship.

These look great! I am otherwise weary of using printed circuits, but for the sake of historical accurasy, I am willing to make an exception this time around!

Floydski wrote:
Are you planning on running the 2 Zandvoort circuits together as one big track replicating the larger "original" Zandvoort circuit? I think that would be a really neat idea.

The thought have crossed my kind. The races were pretty long back then (Monaco GP was 100 laps!), but Zaandvort is the only track I can make longer then the others. Would love to have the cars race round the Nordschleife, but alas, the Nürburgring race track will have to do. But the long Zaandvort track is indeed appealing! I really want to try it!


Floydski wrote:
Concerning Wear Points:

I like the system you've devised. The numbers would probably need tweaked a bit after a few run. +2 points...maybe. What exactly are you going for here? A repeat of the real historical season? Or simply a season start bias on how well each teams was comparatively? It is my thinking that if those bottom rung teams win, they should get the (+2/+1) points for next race reflecting the larger purse, confidence they surely would have gotten.

No, I don't want a repeat. It's not a simulation of that particular season, but I want to keep it as close to history as possible. I mean, it would've been considered a hugh upset if Bonnier won the championshop that year and I want to refect that here (but not completely remove his chances of winning either).

Your idea of +1 or +2 WP for the bottom rung teams is interesting. If 20 WP is the maximum, should all teams be able to add WP's after each win up to 20 WP? If not, where should the cut-off be in WP's? After, say, 12 WP's you don't get any better? My thinking here is this; even if Jo Siffert had managed a win in 1967, that would have been more thanks to his skills as a driver, not the car. The car would've basically been in the same competitiveness (if that is a real word?) in the next race despite the win. But yeah, if you roleplay it, a win would surely boost the morale of the team and give them some more cash to spend on the car. So, in theory, maybe their WP's should increase. But to what limit?

Also, which was not mentioned in my original post, the races will be run using all the advanced rules, but I am a little unsure regarding the tyres. Did they use soft, hard and rain tires in 1967?

Also, since drivers can get injured and miss races, some of the teams are allowed replacement drivers. Should I assign these drivers to the respective teams before the season starts or should I, as I initially had planned, to have all reserve drivers in a Drivers Pool and just have the teams pick however they want?
 
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Daniel Sundström
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I may have devised a qualifying system for the season that uses the die roll. In order to be as historicaly accurate as possible some teams should be more likely than others to qualify in the front rows of the grid. For this reason, a modifier to the die roll will be given based on the teams' amount of WP. The modifiers will be as follows:

20 WP = -3 to the die roll
18 WP = -2
16 WP = -1
14 WP = +/-0
12 WP = +1
10 WP = +2
8 WP = +3

Obviously, the goal is to roll as low as possible in qualifying (I hope that is actually in the rules, because that's how we've always played it). This means that a roll of 10 will translate to a 7 for the Brabham cars while it'll be a 13 for Siffert, McLaren, Bonnier, Ligier and the Matras. That way, the lower tier cars have slightly less chances of getting Pole position while still not making it impossible for them to surprise from time to time.

In 1967, no points were awarded for Pole position.

Also, I might add Chris Irwin in the Reg Parnell BRM as the twentieth participant. Reg Parnell Racing actually ran two cars in 1967 (the other was driven by Piers Courage), but I don't want 21 cars and Courage only participated in three races (eight for Irwin). The problem with Parnells BRMs is that, at least according to my research, had the exact same paintjob as the BRM works team, which I know is going to confuse me if I paint it that way. Still, if it's going to be a twentieth entrant, it'll have to be Reg Parnell Racing and Chris Irwin.
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denis pierron
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Irwin is a good choice because he runs 9 races, but Hahne only races in Deutschland GP.

Most of the races in 1967 where run by 17 or 18 drivers, except England 21, Mexico 19, and France 15) so 18 is a good average choice, like in my game.

Racing Simulator
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/149346/racing-simulat...
 
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Jeffrey Drought
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Not sure whether you ever completed your 1967 schedule or not but it too is my favorite F1 season. I created a variant Formula De with actual driver data. Very little of the actual Formula De game is used in my variant. Basically, all I wanted to do was play a game using the beautiful tracks and then incorporate actual drivers.

I in fact rated 10 seasons in all from 1964-1973. I have a spreadsheet with actual grids for every race that I simply copy and paste into a score sheet to play. The game-play was actually borrowed from Lamborne Games World of Motor Racing game. I modified it so it would fit the scale of Formula De with each race consisting of 1 lap. I just recently did a revision of the rules and happen to be in the midst of my first race for 1967 tonight.

I too had the same dilemma as you. I have all the tracks they created and for a French GP I use the one that was created. The only one I didnt have was Mexico City. I see one is now included in color on this site. Have been contemplating going to Kinkos to print it out.

Jeff
 
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