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Terra Mystica: Fire & Ice» Forums » General

Subject: New Endgame Scoring Feels Redundant rss

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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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I'm a little concerned about these new endgame scoring bonuses, especially the "farthest distance" one. They feel like brothers/sisters of the "largest network" bonus and I am worried one race is going to frequently score first in both of those. That and a couple others (such as "most structures in one network on the edge") give a boost to some factions (such as Mermaids) that really don't need it and make network building so much more important than the cult track as to leave it in the dust.

If that is the intent, so be it. But I don't think I like it.
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William Cody
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bobcatpoet wrote:
I'm a little concerned about these new endgame scoring bonuses, especially the "farthest distance" one. They feel like brothers/sisters of the "largest network" bonus and I am worried one race is going to frequently score first in both of those. That and a couple others (such as "most structures in one network on the edge") give a boost to some factions (such as Mermaids) that really don't need it and make network building so much more important than the cult track as to leave it in the dust.

If that is the intent, so be it. But I don't think I like it.


I don't think I agree actually. The distance token is furthest distance between 2 settlements. It doesn't matter if they are connected or not. Therefore, a race that combines it's towns into one mega city will probably not win it unless everyone goes for the same strategy. And the edge token one is just the most settlements on the edge of the map not the river. Any class has an equal opportunity to expand on the edge of the map. And lastly you could always play without certain tiles if you think they are imbalanced, it seems like it doesn't affect any gameplay just adds an extra scoring goal. If you liked it before it seems like they are just adding more of what you like along with extra things you can ignore. I kind of like the Auction thing to some extent except that I don't think it should start at 40 but at 20 (current starting point) instead. I just think the victory points are worth that much more to someone and it is riskier to be taking negative points for power if you start so low on the track already.
 
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Dave Eisen
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Wccody wrote:
bobcatpoet wrote:
I'm a little concerned about these new endgame scoring bonuses, especially the "farthest distance" one. They feel like brothers/sisters of the "largest network" bonus and I am worried one race is going to frequently score first in both of those. That and a couple others (such as "most structures in one network on the edge") give a boost to some factions (such as Mermaids) that really don't need it and make network building so much more important than the cult track as to leave it in the dust.

If that is the intent, so be it. But I don't think I like it.


I don't think I agree actually. The distance token is furthest distance between 2 settlements. It doesn't matter if they are connected or not. Therefore, a race that combines it's towns into one mega city will probably not win it unless everyone goes for the same strategy. And the edge token one is just the most settlements on the edge of the map not the river. Any class has an equal opportunity to expand on the edge of the map. And lastly you could always play without certain tiles if you think they are imbalanced, it seems like it doesn't affect any gameplay just adds an extra scoring goal. If you liked it before it seems like they are just adding more of what you like along with extra things you can ignore. I kind of like the Auction thing to some extent except that I don't think it should start at 40 but at 20 (current starting point) instead. I just think the victory points are worth that much more to someone and it is riskier to be taking negative points for power if you start so low on the track already.


No comment on balance, but you do have the rule wrong. All the new scorings only apply if all involved buildings are in the same chain of directly and indirectly connected buildings.

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Charles Washington
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tThink the main goal of the expansion was to help out the Fakirs. every scoring tile and the new map itself lend to improving their scoring.

Inadvertently, the mermaids, Witches, and dwarves greatly benefit from this as well. But just because the mermaids are the #1 pre seasoN pick, does not mean they are the conference champions yet.

And largest area and greatest distance winner will likely be the same player. Even if that does not occur, winner of largest area will probably come in 2nd for greatest distance award. The other bonuses seem fine.
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J
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I will say that the new rules do make network more important than ever (and yes all involved buildings do need to be a part ). There used to be 36 network based points, now there are 72 and if you mess up and fail to get connected you can kiss those points good bye.

I don't know about balance but it does arguably weaken Earth 1 and Water 1 which I am glad about. Before we were getting to a point where people would rush E1 and most of our games would be won by someone who had E1 who usually got 20~24 points from E1 alone. Most of the other favors really couldn't compare. Now that there are 72 network based points to fight for there might be more merit to taking the income favors and using that extra income to help you secure these points.

Of course this is speculation and only playing the game will tell.
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William Cody
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Ah misread the diagram but i still consider it different enough
 
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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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allstar64 wrote:
I don't know about balance but it does arguably weaken Earth 1 and Water 1 which I am glad about. Before we were getting to a point where people would rush E1 and most of our games would be won by someone who had E1 who usually got 20~24 points from E1 alone. Most of the other favors really couldn't compare. Now that there are 72 network based points to fight for there might be more merit to taking the income favors and using that extra income to help you secure these points.


It seems to me the way to weaken those two would be to make the cult tracks more meaningful. Making networks more meaningful only makes E1 more powerful, as it gives greater importance to expanding and getting those dwellings out.
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Robert
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It would seem that the races building out benefit more than the races building up. It'll be interesting whether a strategy which just puts small dots connected by shipping across the map (and forfeiting a second town, or even the first one) could win over a more classical strategy which seeks to build 2+ towns, connect them and add a few dots here and there.

Also high shipping levels will become more crucial to score well.
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J
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bobcatpoet wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
I don't know about balance but it does arguably weaken Earth 1 and Water 1 which I am glad about. Before we were getting to a point where people would rush E1 and most of our games would be won by someone who had E1 who usually got 20~24 points from E1 alone. Most of the other favors really couldn't compare. Now that there are 72 network based points to fight for there might be more merit to taking the income favors and using that extra income to help you secure these points.


It seems to me the way to weaken those two would be to make the cult tracks more meaningful. Making networks more meaningful only makes E1 more powerful, as it gives greater importance to expanding and getting those dwellings out.


Well even with the old network scoring expanding and getting those dwellings out was a top priority cause it not only got you end of game scoring but it was the best way to improve your income. That's part of what made E1 so significant. It rewarded you for doing what you would have been doing anyway and it rewarded you greatly whereas the other favors often couldn't match it. Adding a second way to get points from network doesn't really change a player's desire to get a lot of dwellings out.

What it does change however is how much a person is rewarded for building their network the best and a player who decides to takes E1 on turn 1 is at a disadvantage in that respect to players who instead took E2, F1, or W2 on turn 1 since the later players will have more resources to work with and thus a better shot at building the best network. As such giving more ways to gain points actually weakens E1 with respect to the others since E1 does not actually help you get those alternative points. It just sorta rewards you as you try to do it.
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Marc Bennett
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the biggest difference between largest area, and furthest apart is basically shipping.

having the largest area is fine but if you try to get the furthest apart goal shipping helps immensely. even in the final turn if you have a 4 shipping you can place down 3 quick settlements that will all be connected by shipping and take those points. someone who has largest area probably doesn't have the shipping infrastructure to make that happen.

and that is precisely why they put this goal in there. for most players shipping is meh, by attaching a possible goal directly to shipping (which is what the furthest apart goal does) then you make winning by shipping more viable.
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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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allstar64 wrote:
What it does change however is how much a person is rewarded for building their network the best and a player who decides to takes E1 on turn 1 is at a disadvantage in that respect to players who instead took E2, F1, or W2 on turn 1 since the later players will have more resources to work with and thus a better shot at building the best network. As such giving more ways to gain points actually weakens E1 with respect to the others since E1 does not actually help you get those alternative points. It just sorta rewards you as you try to do it.


I don't think you've made a case as to how this has changed. One could make this case with the base game. People are going to still build dwellings and a lot of them. The number of turns aren't changing, so how are the early resource favors going to overtake the early points if they aren't already?
 
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jonatan dyre
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bobcatpoet wrote:

I don't think you've made a case as to how this has changed. One could make this case with the base game. People are going to still build dwellings and a lot of them. The number of turns aren't changing, so how are the early resource favors going to overtake the early points if they aren't already?


I think he did make the case, and the point is that with more awards from Network scoring now, the relative worth of network engine boosting favors is increased, where as E1 stay unchanged.

If it is enough so that E1 is not the absolute first choice in alot of cases remains to be seen, but the other have gotten a lot more potential, since they better your scoring from max 18 to 36 from networks alone.

In the end the Engine boosting tile shall make up for the 20+ points a E1 most likely makes. By increasing the speed of developing your engine you are bound to get some points out of producing more resources than else, during the game. And with a better shot at a more valuable endgame scoring bonus also it looks a lot better.

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Markus Wegener
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I think actually playing it will tell how it feels with that many points for area building. If it doesn't feel good, there are two ideas coming up in my mind to improve that:

1. Only score the new area tile INSTEAD of the biggest network. This could really mix up the gameplay from basegame :-)
(And reduce the bonus points back to 18)

2. Reduce the points from the new area tile. For example 9/6/3 instead of 18/12/6. So it will give a nice bonus reward but will probably not be that game changing.

I wouldn't like it to remove that new scoring entirely because I think it's actually a fun idea to mix up you network goals

The players who got their copy at Essen and already played it, what is your experience? Does the new additional area scoring feel broken?
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Luke s.
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I've played several games with the new end game scoring and tried them all at least once.

Most settlements tile:
2p. Mermaids vs nomads
mermaids won this but not the largest network vs the nomads. The mermaids won because of this difference.

Most settlements on edge tile:
2p. Yeti's vs chaos magicians.
Pretty easy for ice and volcanic races it seems. Yeti's won edge but chaos magicians won network. Not sure but think the yeti's won with a close margin.

Longest distance between buildings tile:
3p.witches vs riverwalkers vs dragonmasters.
Riverwalkers won both longest distance and largest network. They seem pretty good for this tile.

Largest distance between stronghold and sanctuary tile:
2p. Acolytes vs dwarves.
Both managed to build both buildings but the acolytes blocked the dwarves and they could not connect. Thus acolytes won both. This tile won't necessarily be won together with network because building both of them isn't going to happen on just any location. But when planned right and without interference of other players it could.
 
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Dave Hawk
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I can undestand settlement and the 2 distance bonus : they force you to spread all around the map instead of concentrating in a single area.

But I hate and don't understand the sense of edge bonus
Why build only around the border of the map ? it is a nonsense.
there are colors that take an advantage because of the settlement of the esagons but Others that are forced to ignore the edge bonus

and a question:
on the left and right side border, which are considered edge spaces? all the raw ? cause on the online game I think they are conidered edge only the external ones

V V V V V V V
V
_ X
V
_ X
V
V V V V V V V V

(V = yes ; X = no)
 
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Nikolai
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Prometeo78 wrote:

But I hate and don't understand the sense of edge bonus
Why build only around the border of the map ? it is a nonsense.
there are colors that take an advantage because of the settlement of the esagons but Others that are forced to ignore the edge bonus


It is true for most ways to score that they are better suited for some factions than for others. Or even not at all suited for some factions. If the first round Stronghold/Sanctuary scoring tile is out, that is disadvantageous as well for factions who don't want to build a Stronghold or Sanctuary in round 1.
That is a basic principle of the game.

Why would it be a problem? If you see that the final scoring tile Outposts is out, you probably don't want to choose a faction that is very badly suited for it. Choose one that is good at it.
Evaluating the setup of the particular game and choosing factions accordingly is at the very core of the game.
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Nikolai
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Prometeo78 wrote:

and a question:
on the left and right side border, which are considered edge spaces? all the raw ? cause on the online game I think they are conidered edge only the external ones

V V V V V V V
V
_ X
V
_ X
V
V V V V V V V V

(V = yes ; X = no)


Both the Vs and the Xs are considered border spaces with regards to the Outposts final scoring tile.
Besides this being the intuitively reasonable ruling in my opinion, you can also see it from the picture on the Outposts tile.
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Tamino Muth
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When I first played with Fire & Ice I felt that the new scoring system was downgrading the value of the cults too much but now I don't think that's the case. It's just a matter of adaption and choosing the right factions (as it was said two posts above mine). Especially edge scoring usually takes some effort to achieve as you have to build at bad spots, often without being able to build cheap TPs. The two distance scorings are also rather unrelated to the network I feel. Often times I manage to get a good distance with the Chaos Magicans but don't do well in network. Only with clusters scoring I feel that often one race will manage to get largest network as well.

When I play on Snellman where some games have the new scoring system and others don't, I really feel a big impact on the strategic approach to most games. Both systems work very well in general, you just have to adapt to them. With only network scoring for instance, you can rather easily play the Chaos Magicans or the Auren and basicly only aim for winning 3-4 cults while neglecting the network. With a second scoring in play, this strategy will be very dangerous and often losing.

I do feel though that especially the Nomads and Mermaids have gotten stronger with Fire & Ice as they are almost always suitable for aiming to win both scorings. It should also be good for the Engineers as they usually aren't that strong in cults. The Auren are probably the biggest losers of Fire & Ice. I'm not so sure about the Chaos Magicans though. Sometimes they do well with clusters or distance but edge is of course horrible. I'd be curios to see how the Riverwalkers perform with only one scoring system because they would probably have to pay more attention to the cults which would make them weaker.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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Edge scoring is really interesting, it can change the game a lot.
I don't think Riverwalkers need the extra final scoring, they want the 18 points for network and Fav10 and Fav11. In cults they might sneak 4 points when it#s not highly contested.
 
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