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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » General

Subject: Craze or solid new TCG. rss

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I am interested in what the community thinks of the the lifespan of this interesting little game.

Do you think we will still be playing it in two years?

Do Wizkids/Neca have the savvy to balance and maintain a game that has had such a blazing start and turn it into a lasting and solid TCG system?
 
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Zach Tedford
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It is all speculation at this point, but I'm guessing tons of people will be playing this for multiple years to come.

Three print runs sold out on pre-orders alone.

Yes there is some things Wizkids could do that could kill it, but I think they like making money enough to make that not happen.

The main complaints so far have been availability and not much diversity at the competitive level of gaming, I only see both of those things getting better with more releases of new product for this game.
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Treebeard
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I am very interested in how the game will work across licences. Mixing Marvel, D&D, Yu-Go-Oh, and others could cause problems.
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john withers
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Only time will tell.

I think it is a solid game. I hope to be playing it in years to come. Hopefully my local shop will run OPs on a schedule friendly to my schedule for a long while to come.
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nicholas funtanilla
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I think we all will still be playing this in a few years. I potentially see this as the next really big game, like MtG or Heroclix. I know I like the game so much that I got out of Heroclix and sold everything I had to see Dice Masters through.

Love the game, and my non-nerd Wife also loves the game. Plus if you have kids like me, its awesome to play around them as to allow them to feel included by rolling dice.
 
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Yeah, 2 years, easily.

But looking more towards the D&D version.
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James K
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This is the first game I have been excited about to the level I was excited about Star Wars Miniatures back in the day. I am enjoying looking at possible synergies for competitive squad building. I can't wait for them to stop selling out so I can buy a bunch of boosters.
 
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elTigreCHino wrote:
This is the first game I have been excited about to the level I was excited about Star Wars Miniatures back in the day. I am enjoying looking at possible synergies for competitive squad building. I can't wait for them to stop selling out so I can buy a bunch of boosters.

Yes, lack of availability does actually help a game for a little while... Then it starts hurting it...
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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I already moved on. Didn't care for it. Too imbalanced and too random IMHO.
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C. E. Freeman
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kc2dpt wrote:
I already moved on. Didn't care for it. Too imbalanced and too random IMHO.


I would describe my impressions as almost the opposite of yours, I've seen several people comment that it was too random. I've always felt that the decisions that were made in the game (and there are quite a few in an average game) were more important to determining the outcome of my games than the dice rolling (there's a lot of that too).

I don't see an imbalance problem either. The original set is quite small and I find myself playing a lot of the same cards in different variations of the same theme. I prefer to play mid range control and control builds and with only one small set there are only so many cards that support my preferred style of play, which thankfully don't include Tsarina & Gobby.

Clearly you're pretty comfortable moving on based on this post and some of your other posts. While not every game is for everybody, our experiences are so different I almost wonder if we've been playing the same game. Ah well, to each their own.

Nothing lasts forever but if Wizkids gets a handle on the supply problems I don't see why MDM can't have a lengthy run.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Tacullu64 wrote:
I almost wonder if we've been playing the same game.


I wonder that as well. Maybe I'm playing it badly. Or maybe my expectations as a board-gamer differ too much from the expectations of a CCG gamer. There are some real differences in the basic game design of a CCG compared to a "everything in the box" board game. I spent some time with MLP:CCG when it came out and it's OK; we're holding off on getting any cards from the second release until GenCon for money reasons. And I just started up again with Pokemon because my 7 yr old wants to play so we'll see how I fare with that. So that's CCGs in general. But for MDM in specific...

I think there are real design shortcomings to the combination of CCG, deckbuilder, and dice. Unbalanced start, no hand management, and even if you draw what you need you may not then roll what you need. I think the licence and the low cost will attract a lot of new players, but I think the imbalance and randomness will turn off many of these players very quickly. Also, I don't see the company investing the time and management into the game; they seem to have thrown it out there and are just waiting to see if enough money rolls in to keep printing it.

My expectation is after the supply problems get fixed, and the novelty of the dice wears off, people will go back to focusing on MtG like they always do. I have seen so many CCGs come and go; I don't think MDM has found the magic formula to survival. But I would love to be wrong. I'd love to see the game become solid and fun and well supported.
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Jeremiah H
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I think it's lost some steam/early adopters due to the supply issues. I have a complete set but I'm not as enthused to play because there are no opponents in my area.

However, it's a lot of fun, and as others have said, there aren't balance issues; that's a lot of inexperience talking.

I think once the game gets wide distro and some expansions under it's belt for more variation, it will be the gold standard.

I just hope WizKids replays the first event so everyone gets a crack at it or there will be sour grapes.
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Aaron Edwards
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Eh, I think it'll still be around in 2 years, probably even 5 years. 10 years? I'm not so sure. It's a solid game that plays pretty quick and has broad appeal. And it is supposed to be relatively inexpensive if they can ever get the supply issues worked out. These are all things working in its favor. But when the hype wears off and the dust settles, I think there are better customization games on the market that will probably win out.
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C. E. Freeman
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kc2dpt wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
I almost wonder if we've been playing the same game.


I wonder that as well. Maybe I'm playing it badly.


Not badly, but there seems little doubt you and I play it differently. Whether this leads to your bad opinion of the game or it just wasn't for you in the first place who knows.

kc2dpt wrote:
Or maybe my expectations as a board-gamer differ too much from the expectations of a CCG gamer. There are some real differences in the basic game design of a CCG compared to a "everything in the box" board game.


True. Expectations can color our opinions of things, especially if what we got was different than what we hoped for.

kc2dpt wrote:
I think there are real design shortcomings to the combination of CCG, deckbuilder, and dice. Unbalanced start, no hand management, and even if you draw what you need you may not then roll what you need.


I have to strongly disagree here, especially as it applies to MDM.

First could you please clarify unbalanced start. It doesn't seem that way to me, but I might not understand your meaning as this statement is a little vague.

There is hand management in the game. Some is in the cards like Beast: Mutate 666, GG: Norman Osborn, Gambit: Ace In The Hole and Le Diable Blanc, Ghost Rider: Spirit Of Vengeance and Brimstone Biker, Punisher: Vigilante, and the Silver Surfer global to name a few. Some of these cards give you and extra draw and some allow you to take dice from your used pile before they get back into your dice bag to await being drawn again. Either way they allow you to manage what's in your hand. Which segues nicely into the next form of hand management, the flow of the dice in the game.

The very mechanics of the game allow you a measure of control over what is in your hand if you see them for what they are and take advantage of them. The first and most obvious is the dice you purchase. You have to correctly read the game state and purchase the dice you need. If you make a mistake in a die purchase it is not only a waste of your resources for that turn it is also clutter in your dice bag that inhibits your ability to draw what you need down the road.

Understanding the flow of the dice and managing your field is a key way to make sure you are rolling the dice you need. This applies to making the correct decisions in combat. Choosing who to attack with and who to leave behind as a blocker is very important since knocked out characters go to your prep area to be rolled again next turn. If you just fielded Storm: Wind Rider you aren't going to attack with her unless it is for the win because she will go to the used pile and wait to be cycled back into your dice bag. Since you want to roll her again next turn you are much better holding her back to block and forcing one of your opponents characters to attack so you can block with her and get her knocked out. I've even pinged her with my own Human Torch: Johnny Storm to knock her out when it was better than using him on one of my opponents characters.

This game does not lack, by any stretch of the imagination, the ability to influence what you roll each turn or what is in your hand if you will.

kc2dpt wrote:
I think the licence and the low cost will attract a lot of new players, but I think the imbalance and randomness will turn off many of these players very quickly. Also, I don't see the company investing the time and management into the game; they seem to have thrown it out there and are just waiting to see if enough money rolls in to keep printing it.


Could you elaborate on the imbalances, and be forewarned, if your answer is Gobby and Tsarina my answer is I've won the only local tournament with a team made up of only commons and uncommons, defeating Gobby and Tsarina on the way to victory. I'm not the only person to do it as evidenced by other reports on these forums.

Pretty much the only randomness is what you draw from your bag and you have control over what you put in there except for the sidekicks, and you can reduce your chance to draw them by how you use them once the game starts, and the rolling of the dice would be the other random element. You have control of everything you do beyond that. There are even styles of play you can employ to control your opponents options. Of course she can use them against you too.

The game is young, we don't know how much Wizkids will invest in the game. The recent announcement of regional tournaments and a national championship is a very positive sign that they will strongly support organized play.

kc2dpt wrote:
My expectation is after the supply problems get fixed, and the novelty of the dice wears off, people will go back to focusing on MtG like they always do. I have seen so many CCGs come and go; I don't think MDM has found the magic formula to survival. But I would love to be wrong. I'd love to see the game become solid and fun and well supported.


I disagree again. The blending of familiar mechanics into a unique design gives something a bit different than anything else we have at the moment. I think it works as a game, which is the most important criteria, and Wizkids is showing signs of trying to create a strong organized play experience. Both bode well for the future of MDM.

Edit: Back to randomness briefly. I am actually surprised at how much control I feel like I have over the outcome of the game when you consider how much dice rolling you do. Sure a lucky die roll or two may tipped the scales from time to time, but isn't that true of any game involving dice.
 
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kc2dpt wrote:

My expectation is after the supply problems get fixed, and the novelty of the dice wears off, people will go back to focusing on MtG like they always do.


where does one fit who never played MTG?

but, hey, we already know you dislike the game...will you be repeating your dislikes over and over again as well?
 
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Justin Wertz
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As the game stands, right now, I think the IP is enough to keep it going for a few years. I don't think, however, that OP will get a lot of mileage out of it. I enjoy playing at home with randomly drawn teams, because it really keeps things fresh and exciting. There are too many rule ambiguities to create a varied metagame, so, to me, it looks like OP is handcuffed, and doesn't seem like that much fun.

Maybe if the perceived rule and balance issues get tightened up, things may be different. As for me, though, I'll keep buying more, but only for randomized team play within my own group. I could see a lot of people doing that, leaving OP adrift.
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GHOST FINGER wrote:
I am interested in what the community thinks of the the lifespan of this interesting little game.

Do you think we will still be playing it in two years?



I just want to know if I will have actually seen it in stores in two years, or will it still be MIA?
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Peter Rabinowitz
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C. E. Freeman, I'm still thinking over your comment. But in the meantime, it occurred to me that while Quarriors was not a good game it still sold a ton and had numerous expansions. Given that, I think it's safe to say this game will be around for a while.
 
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weezknight wrote:
As the game stands, right now, I think the IP is enough to keep it going for a few years. I don't think, however, that OP will get a lot of mileage out of it. I enjoy playing at home with randomly drawn teams, because it really keeps things fresh and exciting. There are too many rule ambiguities to create a varied metagame, so, to me, it looks like OP is handcuffed, and doesn't seem like that much fun.

Maybe if the perceived rule and balance issues get tightened up, things may be different. As for me, though, I'll keep buying more, but only for randomized team play within my own group. I could see a lot of people doing that, leaving OP adrift.


There are a couple of timing issues that need to be resolved yet and the FAQ could certainly do with some more attention. I must confess Wizkids lack of response in these areas has been frustrating. I'm hoping they'll use the upcoming regionals as inspiration to get to work on these. While I think OP will do better than you, confusion and rule issues at the early regionals could hurt its growth.

kc2dpt wrote:
C. E. Freeman, I'm still thinking over your comment. But in the meantime, it occurred to me that while Quarriors was not a good game it still sold a ton and had numerous expansions. Given that, I think it's safe to say this game will be around for a while.


Glad I could give you something to think about. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong for disliking MDM. After all, we all have our opinions and you know what you like better than I do. It's just you wrote some things I agreed with and others I didn't. Most of them were opinions we disagree on and that's ok, people do that all the time. However a couple of your points I didn't fully understand or in the case of hand manipulation thought that maybe there's was a right and wrong answer.

The randomness issue is very interesting. There is no denying it's there, but you said too random. That is a personal preference. While it is easy for me to understand it might be too random for your tastes, I felt that you may have been implying a greater degree of randomness in the game than I saw. I think we can try to come to grips with the actual amount of randomness in the game and then decide from there if it is too much for us as individuals.

I've never played Quarriors. It piqued my interest a couple of times but never enough to take the plunge. I'm actually indifferent to the Marvel theme but the changes they made in system for MDM did appeal to me, and I must say I haven't regretted buying in early.

 
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weezknight wrote:
As for me, though, I'll keep buying more, but only for randomized team play within my own group. I could see a lot of people doing that, leaving OP adrift.


I think this is a great approach, one that I am taking as well. However, I wonder why people feel the need to almost apologize for playing with randomly drafted teams rather than fully constructed teams.

The fact is, as tourneys skew more towards the Rainbow Draft format, the constructed team that a person has learned to play with becomes almost completely irrelevant. Competition isn't about bringing the best deck, it's about using what you know about how various characters interact to make the best of your randomized team. This isn't a side exercise or a thought experiment - this is how actual competition will be done.

At this point, it's the fully constructed teams that seem more like thought experiments to me. I now play almost exclusively with real time drafts by keeping my cards in 3 stacks sorted by rarity and dealing out a pool to draft from. It's made the game infinitely more fun and variable for me and solved almost every one of the balance issues that we've seen thus far.
 
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jhoratio wrote:
weezknight wrote:
As for me, though, I'll keep buying more, but only for randomized team play within my own group. I could see a lot of people doing that, leaving OP adrift.


I think this is a great approach, one that I am taking as well. However, I wonder why people feel the need to almost apologize for playing with randomly drafted teams rather than fully constructed teams.

The fact is, as tourneys skew more towards the Rainbow Draft format, the constructed team that a person has learned to play with becomes almost completely irrelevant. Competition isn't about bringing the best deck, it's about using what you know about how various characters interact to make the best of your randomized team. This isn't a side exercise or a thought experiment - this is how actual competition will be done.

At this point, it's the fully constructed teams that seem more like thought experiments to me. I now play almost exclusively with real time drafts by keeping my cards in 3 stacks sorted by rarity and dealing out a pool to draft from. It's made the game infinitely more fun and variable for me and solved almost every one of the balance issues that we've seen thus far.


Constructed is still one of the legal tournament formats. I suppose it will vary from venue to venue. I'm not really interested in draft format for AvX because I already have a complete set with extra dice and enough gaming materials lying around I'm not interested in more. I'll be buying less UXM if draft is the we go around here.

Your preference for draft is just that, preference, and there is nothing wrong with that. I like constructed better. I liked the challenge of bringing my best or what I think will give me the best chance against what I think my opponents will bring. I like facing off against Gobby and Tsarina, it hasn't gotten boring for me yet, although using them doesn't fit my personal play style.

If competitive MtG has taught us anything, it's that constructed and draft require two different skill sets and that one shouldn't be favored over the other. Players need to be good at both because the largest events will require you to be successful playing both. I much prefer this approach to playing one all the time at the expense of the other.
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I think that with expansions, the game will go from strength to strength. Provided the sets aren't made in a vacuum of the others. They obviously need to be related to each other in terms of playability, and balance.
 
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Tacullu64 wrote:
Constructed is still one of the legal tournament formats. I suppose it will vary from venue to venue.


I actually wasn't aware that fully constructed was ever a suggested format for tourneys - the only format I ever saw explicitly mentioned was semi-constructed. I know stores can make their own rules, per se, but can you point me to somewhere where WizKids specifically mentions constructed as a potential tourney format?

The Hybrid format has gone over like a lead balloon of course, which was part of the reason they came up with the alternate Rainbow Draft format.

Sorry to say, but as boosters become more widely available, I think you will find fewer and fewer purely constructed tourneys. I'm sure you'll be able to find them, but I'd wager they'll be niche events.

I have all the cards as well, and what that means for me is a rich, full home experience where I have a chance to draft every card in the set over multiple plays. Has nothing to do with competitive play.

I play at a store that is fairly prominent in the MDM OP community as it's one of about half a dozen stores in the US that will host the national championships, so I'd wager how things go here is a decent indication of how they will go in general. As of now, we have gone to a purely Rainbow Draft format. We actually did a Month 1 event with a semi-constructed format and the collective response was "this isn't fun." We're going to redo the entire Month 1 with the Rainbow Draft instead and I'm guessing that will be a more or less permanent change.

I think we need to break out of the mindset of Magic and Netrunner where it's all about solidifying your strategy into one winning deck. Instead, MDM is about creatively assembling a team that will do the best it can with the cards you can access.
 
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jhoratio wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
Constructed is still one of the legal tournament formats. I suppose it will vary from venue to venue.


I actually wasn't aware that fully constructed was ever a suggested format for tourneys - the only format I ever saw explicitly mentioned was semi-constructed. I know stores can make their own rules, per se, but can you point me to somewhere where WizKids specifically mentions constructed as a potential tourney format?

The Hybrid format has gone over like a lead balloon of course, which was part of the reason they came up with the alternate Rainbow Draft format.

Sorry to say, but as boosters become more widely available, I think you will find fewer and fewer purely constructed tourneys. I'm sure you'll be able to find them, but I'd wager they'll be niche events.

I have all the cards as well, and what that means for me is a rich, full home experience where I have a chance to draft every card in the set over multiple plays. Has nothing to do with competitive play.

I play at a store that is fairly prominent in the MDM OP community as it's one of about half a dozen stores in the US that will host the national championships, so I'd wager how things go here is a decent indication of how they will go in general. As of now, we have gone to a purely Rainbow Draft format. We actually did a Month 1 event with a semi-constructed format and the collective response was "this isn't fun." We're going to redo the entire Month 1 with the Rainbow Draft instead and I'm guessing that will be a more or less permanent change.

I think we need to break out of the mindset of Magic and Netrunner where it's all about solidifying your strategy into one winning deck. Instead, MDM is about creatively assembling a team that will do the best it can with the cards you can access.


The rule book lists the formats. Rainbow is an add on.

Even though I prefer constructed I think promoting multiple formats is the best approach. Like I said, draft and constructed require different skill sets to be successful. Why you would promote one over the other as opposed to requiring people to develop multiple skill sets doesn't make much sense to me. But, Wizkids isn't in business to make sense to me.
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At this price point it has a long future.

It's cheap, quick and easy to learn. There is a nice amount of depth and a huge potential for future expansions.

It is no competitor to MtG, though I don't think many claim it to be (certainly not myself. That said, I have quit MtG and have taken up MDM in it'a absence (price was a huge factor in this decision).

As the for the randomness, I think it's fine. Due to all your cards being available at all times, you are replacing your random draw factor for the dice factor. The ability to re-roll any dice makes this viable.

The price point is gained by the ability to run a SR, using common dice, eliminating the need to get 4 of each chase SR. Another huge consideration in the same area is how the card pool is managed when more sets come out. Any banlists, implementation of timed formats and power creep will have a huge impact on whether I continue supporting the game.
 
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