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Subject: Corran Horn Ability: Reminder? rss

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Big Tung
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Not sure if this goes in general or rules.

For the Corran Horn ability (E-Wing), taking the second attack prevents him from attacking on the next turn. Is there some way to indicate that he can't attack on the next turn (token, etc.)? Or is it just up to both players to remember that he's incapacitated for the next combat round?
 
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Xander Fulton
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Haven't used him yet, myself, but I imagine just 'tapping' the card would do as a visual reminder.
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Big Tung
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So simple, perfect!
 
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Joshua Speelman
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XanderF wrote:
Haven't used him yet, myself, but I imagine just 'tapping' the card would do as a visual reminder.


He said "tapping"! Someone call WotC quick!
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James Machin
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Played against this card last week, the opposition just flipped the card over.
 
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Ron D
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The Tracking tokens from the core set are helpful for indicating miscellaneous effects like this.
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Peter O
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Or you can "cloak" him. It's a nice standout blue (good for some of us color blind people).
 
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Tim Bailey
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I use an "energy" token from the huge ships to mark him as being "on cooldown".
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Jon NyD

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I had a couple sets of bright orange tokens custom made that say "Special", in different paired shapes. I just set one of those next to the ship and next to the card in question to remind everyone. Litko.net also has some Rebel and Imperial pilot tokens that could do the same job. If you only have one or two effects on your side these work great!
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Andrew Lieffring
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Hexis wrote:


That token seems better suited for putting next to Corran as a reminder that he used Marksmanship on a round where he's going to double tap than a reminder that he can't shoot the next round.
 
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Yeah, I know. I'm working on a better one for Adam to offer for Corran and Blinded Pilot. It's something in the meantime.
 
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Chris Brown
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I prefer not to have a visual reminder on the board. My opponent has to remember my abilities just as much as I have to. Sometimes people will change who they are firing at because of a perceived threat. If I can get my opponent to say "Oh crap, i have to shoot Corran before he shoots me" then I may get a tactical advantage. Now maybe that wont happen much with Corran's pilot skill, but I find it happens a lot with people target locking ships right next to Biggs or people forgetting a blinded pilot wont get to roll dice on an attack.
 
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Christian Busch

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killerardvark wrote:
I prefer not to have a visual reminder on the board. My opponent has to remember my abilities just as much as I have to. Sometimes people will change who they are firing at because of a perceived threat. If I can get my opponent to say "Oh crap, i have to shoot Corran before he shoots me" then I may get a tactical advantage. Now maybe that wont happen much with Corran's pilot skill, but I find it happens a lot with people target locking ships right next to Biggs or people forgetting a blinded pilot wont get to roll dice on an attack.

The issue with this is how do you resolve this quickly when an opponent disputes that you double attacked last turn (when you single attacked) and are trying to attack again or vice versa. While the subterfuge may be useful, it actually can cause a major issue in game play. Blinded Pilot is easy. There is a card that you can reference and interact with. This ability is subtle and can get pretty messy after 14 hours of tournament play and trying to keep track of it while a lot of other ships on the board. It can cause disputes and purposely trying to force both players to remember the precise game state is a bad idea. It can dissolve to a he said/she said argument that no judge wants to deal with.

I almost ran into this in the last tournament I attended but luckily the judge was watching our game and could correct us. I don't know how it would have resolved if we had to call the judge over blind and I try to convince him I didn't attack last turn (so I can attack again this turn) while my opponent was convinced I attacked twice last turn. I know my opponent wasn't trying to pull anything, it was 12 hours into a tournament, it was late and memory is inherently a bad tool to use. Playing Corran, I try to talk through his attacks and pound home when I did a double attack and when I can't attack so that we don't need to grab a judge for a dispute. It isn't foolproof so I think a token or other manipulation is needed.
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Chris Brown
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space monkey mafia wrote:
killerardvark wrote:
I prefer not to have a visual reminder on the board. My opponent has to remember my abilities just as much as I have to. Sometimes people will change who they are firing at because of a perceived threat. If I can get my opponent to say "Oh crap, i have to shoot Corran before he shoots me" then I may get a tactical advantage. Now maybe that wont happen much with Corran's pilot skill, but I find it happens a lot with people target locking ships right next to Biggs or people forgetting a blinded pilot wont get to roll dice on an attack.

The issue with this is how do you resolve this quickly when an opponent disputes that you double attacked last turn (when you single attacked) and are trying to attack again or vice versa. While the subterfuge may be useful, it actually can cause a major issue in game play. Blinded Pilot is easy. There is a card that you can reference and interact with. This ability is subtle and can get pretty messy after 14 hours of tournament play and trying to keep track of it while a lot of other ships on the board. It can cause disputes and purposely trying to force both players to remember the precise game state is a bad idea. It can dissolve to a he said/she said argument that no judge wants to deal with.

I almost ran into this in the last tournament I attended but luckily the judge was watching our game and could correct us. I don't know how it would have resolved if we had to call the judge over blind and I try to convince him I didn't attack last turn (so I can attack again this turn) while my opponent was convinced I attacked twice last turn. I know my opponent wasn't trying to pull anything, it was 12 hours into a tournament, it was late and memory is inherently a bad tool to use. Playing Corran, I try to talk through his attacks and pound home when I did a double attack and when I can't attack so that we don't need to grab a judge for a dispute. It isn't foolproof so I think a token or other manipulation is needed.
I completely agree, but don't have it on the board next to your ship is all I'm saying. For example, I use one of the tracking tokens from the missions for R2-F2. I just put it on the ship's card and remove it at the end of the round.
 
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Christian Busch

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killerardvark wrote:
space monkey mafia wrote:
killerardvark wrote:
I prefer not to have a visual reminder on the board. My opponent has to remember my abilities just as much as I have to. Sometimes people will change who they are firing at because of a perceived threat. If I can get my opponent to say "Oh crap, i have to shoot Corran before he shoots me" then I may get a tactical advantage. Now maybe that wont happen much with Corran's pilot skill, but I find it happens a lot with people target locking ships right next to Biggs or people forgetting a blinded pilot wont get to roll dice on an attack.

The issue with this is how do you resolve this quickly when an opponent disputes that you double attacked last turn (when you single attacked) and are trying to attack again or vice versa. While the subterfuge may be useful, it actually can cause a major issue in game play. Blinded Pilot is easy. There is a card that you can reference and interact with. This ability is subtle and can get pretty messy after 14 hours of tournament play and trying to keep track of it while a lot of other ships on the board. It can cause disputes and purposely trying to force both players to remember the precise game state is a bad idea. It can dissolve to a he said/she said argument that no judge wants to deal with.

I almost ran into this in the last tournament I attended but luckily the judge was watching our game and could correct us. I don't know how it would have resolved if we had to call the judge over blind and I try to convince him I didn't attack last turn (so I can attack again this turn) while my opponent was convinced I attacked twice last turn. I know my opponent wasn't trying to pull anything, it was 12 hours into a tournament, it was late and memory is inherently a bad tool to use. Playing Corran, I try to talk through his attacks and pound home when I did a double attack and when I can't attack so that we don't need to grab a judge for a dispute. It isn't foolproof so I think a token or other manipulation is needed.
I completely agree, but don't have it on the board next to your ship is all I'm saying. For example, I use one of the tracking tokens from the missions for R2-F2. I just put it on the ship's card and remove it at the end of the round.


Ah cool. As long as there is a tracking method in place and both players are aware, that should be good.
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Ron D
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killerardvark wrote:
space monkey mafia wrote:
killerardvark wrote:
I prefer not to have a visual reminder on the board. My opponent has to remember my abilities just as much as I have to. Sometimes people will change who they are firing at because of a perceived threat. If I can get my opponent to say "Oh crap, i have to shoot Corran before he shoots me" then I may get a tactical advantage. Now maybe that wont happen much with Corran's pilot skill, but I find it happens a lot with people target locking ships right next to Biggs or people forgetting a blinded pilot wont get to roll dice on an attack.

The issue with this is how do you resolve this quickly when an opponent disputes that you double attacked last turn (when you single attacked) and are trying to attack again or vice versa. While the subterfuge may be useful, it actually can cause a major issue in game play. Blinded Pilot is easy. There is a card that you can reference and interact with. This ability is subtle and can get pretty messy after 14 hours of tournament play and trying to keep track of it while a lot of other ships on the board. It can cause disputes and purposely trying to force both players to remember the precise game state is a bad idea. It can dissolve to a he said/she said argument that no judge wants to deal with.

I almost ran into this in the last tournament I attended but luckily the judge was watching our game and could correct us. I don't know how it would have resolved if we had to call the judge over blind and I try to convince him I didn't attack last turn (so I can attack again this turn) while my opponent was convinced I attacked twice last turn. I know my opponent wasn't trying to pull anything, it was 12 hours into a tournament, it was late and memory is inherently a bad tool to use. Playing Corran, I try to talk through his attacks and pound home when I did a double attack and when I can't attack so that we don't need to grab a judge for a dispute. It isn't foolproof so I think a token or other manipulation is needed.
I completely agree, but don't have it on the board next to your ship is all I'm saying. For example, I use one of the tracking tokens from the missions for R2-F2. I just put it on the ship's card and remove it at the end of the round.


You are technically correct that you don't have to mark Corran's ability, but avoiding doing so intentionally to confuse people is slimy.

As far as your other examples, intentionally not marking a Blinded Pilot with a Critical Hit token, in the hope that your opponent might forget, is outright cheating. The Crit tokens are there because the game is explicitly designed to give us a visual reminder that a ship is suffering from a debilitating critical hit - if you decide not to do that in the hope that your opponent will overlook the crit, you are breaking rules in order to gain an advantage. That's just cheating.
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Allen T
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killerardvark wrote:
space monkey mafia wrote:
killerardvark wrote:
I prefer not to have a visual reminder on the board. My opponent has to remember my abilities just as much as I have to. Sometimes people will change who they are firing at because of a perceived threat. If I can get my opponent to say "Oh crap, i have to shoot Corran before he shoots me" then I may get a tactical advantage. Now maybe that wont happen much with Corran's pilot skill, but I find it happens a lot with people target locking ships right next to Biggs or people forgetting a blinded pilot wont get to roll dice on an attack.

The issue with this is how do you resolve this quickly when an opponent disputes that you double attacked last turn (when you single attacked) and are trying to attack again or vice versa. While the subterfuge may be useful, it actually can cause a major issue in game play. Blinded Pilot is easy. There is a card that you can reference and interact with. This ability is subtle and can get pretty messy after 14 hours of tournament play and trying to keep track of it while a lot of other ships on the board. It can cause disputes and purposely trying to force both players to remember the precise game state is a bad idea. It can dissolve to a he said/she said argument that no judge wants to deal with.

I almost ran into this in the last tournament I attended but luckily the judge was watching our game and could correct us. I don't know how it would have resolved if we had to call the judge over blind and I try to convince him I didn't attack last turn (so I can attack again this turn) while my opponent was convinced I attacked twice last turn. I know my opponent wasn't trying to pull anything, it was 12 hours into a tournament, it was late and memory is inherently a bad tool to use. Playing Corran, I try to talk through his attacks and pound home when I did a double attack and when I can't attack so that we don't need to grab a judge for a dispute. It isn't foolproof so I think a token or other manipulation is needed.
I completely agree, but don't have it on the board next to your ship is all I'm saying. For example, I use one of the tracking tokens from the missions for R2-F2. I just put it on the ship's card and remove it at the end of the round.


If it is tucked over near your cards on your side of the table who is to say you didn't add, remove, or change it in the event of a dispute?
Or if you usually mark it to indicate you have attacked twice what prevents you from saying this time you left it there to indicate that you COULD attack this turn? I think this is one of the cases where intentionally hiding information from your opponent in the hopes of causing mistakes can easily lead to everyone having less fun.


I will also add that while hiding the blinded pilot crit by not marking it in hopes your opponent will forget is not good, I must admit to never using the crit tokens and having such things cause problems ("oh, this guy was supposed to roll one less attack dice..."). I really should start using them, but I never do.
 
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Dr Lucky wrote:
As far as your other examples, intentionally not marking a Blinded Pilot with a Critical Hit token, in the hope that your opponent might forget, is outright cheating. The Crit tokens are there because the game is explicitly designed to give us a visual reminder that a ship is suffering from a debilitating critical hit - if you decide not to do that in the hope that your opponent will overlook the crit, you are breaking rules in order to gain an advantage. That's just cheating.


monkeykins wrote:
I will also add that while hiding the blinded pilot crit by not marking it in hopes your opponent will forget is not good, I must admit to never using the crit tokens and having such things cause problems ("oh, this guy was supposed to roll one less attack dice..."). I really should start using them, but I never do.
You're both completely right here. I don't think I've ever met anyone who was really good at putting critical hit tokens on his ships. I'll make sure to toss some in my bag for regionals this weekend. For how many times we forget you'd think we'd use them.

As for the lines between cheating, playing "slimy", or just not helping your opponent. This is a very philosophical discussion that has been had many times on this forum. First and foremost, I'm not going to cheat to win at this game. If something doesn't say "may" then it has to happen whether I like it or not. I'm getting hammered by tactician or rebel captive regardless of if my opponent remembers he has it. It's up to us both to remember and apply it to the game. For things like R2-F2, marksmanship, Corran Horn, and other actions that don't have clearly defined ways to mark them this is a gray area. I've never heard of an written or unwritten rule about this. Everyone has their own way to do it. I just make sure that my opponent knows what my indicator is and how I am using it. "But if it's not on the board you could cheat" well yes and I could give myself shields back while my opponent isn't looking as well. Just don't cheat, plain and simple. Finally, things with the word "may" in them, I'm not going to remind you through the game to use your "may" abilities. If you forget advanced sensors, fire control systems, darth vader, howlrunner, or whatever else ability you have that is optional then it's your fault and I feel no shame for gaining an advantage in that situation.
 
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Chris L
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Is this the first game state in the game that lasts across turns that isn't tracked by tokens or cards? Indeed, most are even tracked across phases in a single turn. Maybe Marksmanship (across phases) I guess, anything else?
 
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There isn't a good included token for things like Marksmanship, or R2F2. So I designed one for each for Adam at Applied Perspective to offer (mostly so I could have one for myself). Likewise I'm working on a new set of tokens for things like some specific critical hits (blinded pilot/horn, or Weapon malfunction, or structural damage). They are all important, and easy to forget. Should have them ready soon.
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Jordan Hall
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Hexis wrote:
There isn't a good included token for things like Marksmanship, or R2F2. So I designed one for each for Adam at Applied Perspective to offer (mostly so I could have one for myself). Likewise I'm working on a new set of tokens for things like some specific critical hits (blinded pilot/horn, or Weapon malfunction, or structural damage). They are all important, and easy to forget. Should have them ready soon.


Personally, I find the Bounty Hunter token, from Slave 1, to be a great token for Marksmanship. And the CR90/GR-75 came with numerous small tokens that can mark Expose, the agility Droid, etc.
 
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Jonah Rees
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killerardvark wrote:
Dr Lucky wrote:
As far as your other examples, intentionally not marking a Blinded Pilot with a Critical Hit token, in the hope that your opponent might forget, is outright cheating. The Crit tokens are there because the game is explicitly designed to give us a visual reminder that a ship is suffering from a debilitating critical hit - if you decide not to do that in the hope that your opponent will overlook the crit, you are breaking rules in order to gain an advantage. That's just cheating.


monkeykins wrote:
I will also add that while hiding the blinded pilot crit by not marking it in hopes your opponent will forget is not good, I must admit to never using the crit tokens and having such things cause problems ("oh, this guy was supposed to roll one less attack dice..."). I really should start using them, but I never do.
You're both completely right here. I don't think I've ever met anyone who was really good at putting critical hit tokens on his ships. I'll make sure to toss some in my bag for regionals this weekend. For how many times we forget you'd think we'd use them.

As for the lines between cheating, playing "slimy", or just not helping your opponent. This is a very philosophical discussion that has been had many times on this forum. First and foremost, I'm not going to cheat to win at this game. If something doesn't say "may" then it has to happen whether I like it or not. I'm getting hammered by tactician or rebel captive regardless of if my opponent remembers he has it. It's up to us both to remember and apply it to the game. For things like R2-F2, marksmanship, Corran Horn, and other actions that don't have clearly defined ways to mark them this is a gray area. I've never heard of an written or unwritten rule about this. Everyone has their own way to do it. I just make sure that my opponent knows what my indicator is and how I am using it. "But if it's not on the board you could cheat" well yes and I could give myself shields back while my opponent isn't looking as well. Just don't cheat, plain and simple. Finally, things with the word "may" in them, I'm not going to remind you through the game to use your "may" abilities. If you forget advanced sensors, fire control systems, darth vader, howlrunner, or whatever else ability you have that is optional then it's your fault and I feel no shame for gaining an advantage in that situation.


I'm not sure whether it's sliminess/cheating but it's certainly duplicitous. What if you forget you've used an ability/action and then use it again or take an action that you're not supposed to accidentally? In my view everything should be clearly marked and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some official tournament ruling on it.
 
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