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Subject: Yet Another Egg of Chaos Question rss

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Chuck Mitchell

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I must be a moron.

I cannot make sense of the Z-Man rules on page 8. To me, they conflict with the Scoring rules on page 4.

Page 4 tells me that the "asterisk" cards (like Homesteaders) EACH have the value of the total number of that type in my hand. If I have four Homesteaders, each is worth 4 points, for a total of 16 points.

Then on page 8, I'm told the Egg of Chaos "counts as three other cards: Homesteaders, Mischievous Fairy and Children of the Dragon. The Egg of Chaos also counts as all factions and all card types."

Example 6 on page 8 is what baffles me.

From what I understand of Scoring and the Egg of Chaos rule, in Example 6, I have 2 Children of the Dragon cards (1 normal and 1 from Egg of Chaos), so each one counts as 2 points and I have 2, for a total of 4 points.

I have 3 Mischievous Fairy cards (2 normal and one Egg of Chaos), so each counts for 3 points, for a total of 9 points.

Plus 2 more for the Egg, for a total of 4+9+2 = 15.

Help.
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Jeff Wood
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The Egg of Chaos counts as one of the asterisk card, but is not an asterisk card.

So, if you have 2 Child of the Dragon cards and the Egg of Chaos, this is NOT 3 Children of the Dragon cards. A Child of the Dragon card is worth the points equal to the number of cards showing the Child of the Dragon, of which there are three (3): the two Children of the Dragon and the Egg of Chaos, so it is worth 3 points. Two such are worth 3+3=6 points. Add the Egg's 2 points for eight (8) points total.

Note if you have also the Mischievous Fairy, the Egg will also increase the total cards showing the Mischievous Fairy, but the Egg itself is only counted the once for 2 points regardless of how many sets it increases.
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Gillum the Stoor
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One can explain Example 6 in a manners similar to the example here.

You have four cards, printed with Dragon Child, Mischievous Fairy (2 of them), and Egg of Chaos.

The Dragon Child has the following properties:
- Name = Dragon Child
- Value = 1 point for every card with name "Dragon Child"

Each of the Mischievous Fairies has the following properties:
- Name = Mischievous Fairy
- Value = 1 point for every card with name "Mischievous Fairy"

The Egg of Chaos has the following properties:
- Name = Dragon Child and Mischievous Fairy
- Value = 2 (printed on card - cannot be changed)

Since you have two cards with name "Dragon Child" (one printed as such, plus the Egg), the card printed with that name (worth 1 point for every card with name "Dragon Child") is worth 2 points.

Since you have three cards with name "Mischievous Fairy" (two printed as such, plus the Egg), each of the two cards printed with that name (each worth 1 point for every card with name "Mischievous Fairy") is worth 3 points. That's 2x3 = 6.

The Egg is worth 2.

Your total score for these four cards is 2+6+2 = 10.
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Chuck Mitchell

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OK.

I'll ponder all this.

Seems rather convoluted, and I fear my gaming group is going to wonder why it doesn't score the way I describe, which seems to be the plain reading of the rules.

I don't doubt what you're telling me, I just regret that it seems to take a fairly simple game and bring lots of complication.

I have not actually played it yet, but will very soon.
 
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Jeff Wood
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I think the main question you should ask yourself based on how you are phrasing your confusion is:

"Why do I think the Egg of Chaos gets an Asterisk for Scoring?"

You are likely thinking that when it 'counts' as Child of Dragon, etc, it gets the entirety of that card, including the score points. This is incorrect though, the score portion remains as a static 2 points.

Otherwise the Egg's score is really confusing! Picture that if you had no other asterisk cards..would the Egg than score as 1 Child of Dragon, 1 Mischievous Fairy & 1 Yellow Guy ( ) for 3 points plus the two on the card for a total of 5? Obviously, it does not by any example in the book.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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I agree that the Egg makes the game more difficult to understand, and I'm not certain that it really adds that much.

If you are playing with a new group (and have at most 4 players), I recommend that you play with the basic 80-card deck. In the new Z-Man version, these are the cards without the Expert Rules icon in the bottom right corner of the card (see "Getting Ready" under "Basic Rules").

By itself, these cards give a very good game. They include some variable-value cards (so you'll learn some of the finer points of the game), but they omit the complexities of the conditional-value cards, hunting, the Trickster, and the Egg. This will give you plenty of practice in understanding the order of flipping and unflipping, which is really central to the game.

Once you feel comfortable with that (or if you are playing with 5 players), you can add the remaining 20 cards from the original game: 16 book cards (Chapters 1-4 of each faction), the three hunting cards (Fairy Queen, Sword King, Gold Dragon), and one copy of the Trickster.

This extension includes conditional-value cards (not a big deal), hunting (need to be careful about the order in which effects are applied), and the Trickster.

I would add the new 10 cards from the latest Z-Man version (second Trickster; Shadow King's Tale Chapter 5; Gatekeeper; Storyteller; 3 Treasuries; and 3 Eggs) only when you get tired of the base 100 cards.

Personally, I really like the 100-card version with 5 players (or the 80-card version with 4 players) because every card is in play. If you player the 110-card Z-Man version, there will always be some cards that don't go into play at all.
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Chuck Mitchell

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Thanks Gillum.

I'm going to start playing without the Egg of Chaos (play 4-player with 80 cards and 5-player with 100). It takes me longer to explain the Egg of Chaos than to play the game, and no one believes me when I tell them how it scores.

In any other game, when something "counts as" something else, it counts as it. All or not at all. This is the common sense meaning of the phrase "counts as" and the common understanding in gaming, too. If it's a Homesteader card, it's a Homesteader card. If it's not, it's not.

The potential confusion over whether a player with Egg of Chaos scores 1 point each for Homesteaders, Mischeivous Fairy and/or Children of the Dragon -- in the absence of having any of those cards in your hand -- could be handled by one line in the rules and/or on the Egg card: "However, the Egg of Chaos only 'counts as' one of these cards if the player has at least one of these cards face-up at game end."


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Gillum the Stoor
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chuckm1961 wrote:
I'm going to start playing without the Egg of Chaos (play 4-player with 80 cards and 5-player with 100).

Looking back after all this time, I agree that this probably is the best way to play.
 
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Martin Larouche
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I'm not sure i get the solution of not playing with them.

I didn't play with the eggs yet, but it's my understanding they score very similarly to the trickster.

If you understand the trickster, you understand the eggs...
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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deedob wrote:
I'm not sure i get the solution of not playing with them.

I didn't play with the eggs yet, but it's my understanding they score very similarly to the trickster.

If you understand the trickster, you understand the eggs...

The Egg is somewhat harder to understand than the Trickster, although it is understandable.

Reasons to omit include (1) you like a 5-player game in which every card is always known to be in play - exactly 100 cards in the deck; or (2) you think that the Egg may be an unbalanced card.

I like #1 - I think that some others have concerns about balance and #2.
 
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Martin Larouche
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gillum wrote:
deedob wrote:
I'm not sure i get the solution of not playing with them.

I didn't play with the eggs yet, but it's my understanding they score very similarly to the trickster.

If you understand the trickster, you understand the eggs...

The Egg is somewhat harder to understand than the Trickster, although it is understandable.

Reasons to omit include (1) you like a 5-player game in which every card is always known to be in play - exactly 100 cards in the deck; or (2) you think that the Egg may be an unbalanced card.

I like #1 - I think that some others have concerns about balance and #2.


I think the trickster is unbalanced... but it hardly matters.

I don't think perfect balance is an issue in this game. Balance is an issue in games where there is zero luck (volumes have been written to the white advantage in chess). If you include a moderate amount of luck, it doesn't matter anymore.

It's like saying "i think aces are overpowered in Poker".

But with your number 1, i can see it... though a little bit of unpredictability in card draw is better for me and just about everyone i know...
 
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Spudkitty

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I appreciate the peoples' replies to the original question. For someone new to the expert cards, I'm trying to find a systematic way to explain the Egg of Chaos scoring. Would this explanation work?

Scenario: (1) Children of the Dragon card, two (2) Mischievous Fairy cards, and one (1) Egg of Chaos ...

1. Count the actual number of Children of the Dragon cards (in this case, 'count' = 1
2. Add 1 to the 'count' in Step 1 for the Egg of Chaos ('count' is now 2)
3. Multiply the 'count' by the actual number of Children of the Dragon cards, which is your final Children of the Dragon score = 2x1= 2

4. Count the actual number of Mischievous Fairy cards (in this case, 'count' = 2
5. Add 1 to the 'count' in Step 4 for the Egg of Chaos ('count' is now 3)
6. Multiply the 'count' by the actual number of Mischievous Fairy cards, which is your final Mischievous Fairy score = 3x2 = 6

7. Add the Children of the Dragon score (2) + the Mischievous Fairy score (6) + the Egg of Chaos score (2) = 10

Hope this is correct?

Or, House Rule, it might be easier to simply treat the Egg of Chaos card similar to the Trickster, letting the player choose which of the three applicable cards he or she wishes to increase by one, scoring as usual.

Why the developers made this so complicated is beyond me. I suppose scoring becomes second nature to avid players. I hope to get there eventually.
 
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Scott Trudeau
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gillum wrote:
deedob wrote:
I'm not sure i get the solution of not playing with them.

I didn't play with the eggs yet, but it's my understanding they score very similarly to the trickster.

If you understand the trickster, you understand the eggs...

The Egg is somewhat harder to understand than the Trickster, although it is understandable.

Reasons to omit include (1) you like a 5-player game in which every card is always known to be in play - exactly 100 cards in the deck; or (2) you think that the Egg may be an unbalanced card.

I like #1 - I think that some others have concerns about balance and #2.


So, you must also omit the 'draw' cards, since there would not be enough cards in the deck to allow their ability to function.

 
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Gillum the Stoor
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Yes - those are the three "Treasury" cards.
 
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