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Subject: Best games on the Battle of Kursk? rss

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Jim Bourke
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Can someone recommend for me the best choices on the Battle of Kursk?

Jim
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Rolf Van Ishem
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Panzer Grenadier Kursk: South Flank and Kursk: Burning Tigers. These are platoon level scale and have a proven system with the just released 4th edition rules. The maps and counters are beautiful and give a nice feel drawing you into the game. It is definitely worth a try!

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/85826/panzer-grenadier-ku...

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/39426/panzer-grenadier-ku...
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Steve Arthur
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Drive on Kursk: July 1943 is the best game covering the whole battle that I've played..
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Wargames on Kursk 1943
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Mike Oberly
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My question would be, what scale is most useful to deliver insight to this battle? (above pure tactical) My thinking is maybe company level?
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Bill Eldard
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MikeOberly wrote:
My question would be, what scale is most useful to deliver insight to this battle? (above pure tactical) My thinking is maybe company level?


That depends on whether you want insight to the entire battle or just to the tactical conflict.
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Carl Paradis
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I like this one:

Kursk 1943

This one is not too bad either:

Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle, July 1943


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Alan Sutton
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Atraxrobustus wrote:

Drive on Kursk: July 1943 is the best game covering the whole battle that I've played..


I wholeheartedly agree. A great game that is a tense struggle as well as providing a good operational overview of the battle.

The only other game I have played on this subject is Prochorovka: Armor at Kursk which was fun but nowhere near as good as this one. Different scale too.



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Leo Zappa
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MikeOberly wrote:
My question would be, what scale is most useful to deliver insight to this battle? (above pure tactical) My thinking is maybe company level?


I'd argue that to gain insight into the overall battle and the potential for alternative outcomes, we need to look at things from an operational level, not tactical or grand tactical scale. That means that a regimental/divisional approach is probably the best. A couple of games that portray the campaign at that level include Clash of Titans: The Tank Battle for Kursk, 1943 and Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle, July 1943.
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Peter
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Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!
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Roger Hobden
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JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?
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Douglas Brunton
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Mallet wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?


I'd guess because it's big and it's fairly expensive. It does look good however and I've got the smaller intro game to the series Hafid Ridge.

It would probably be close to $200 with shipping to Canada included for the newest game in the series. I've thought about it but haven't yet pulled the trigger. There also isn't a vassal mod as yet for the newest although there is for the other ones.

Doug
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Rolf Van Ishem
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Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


I would not exactly call DR tactical in scale. It is possibly grand tactical, but that is what they call Panzer Grenadier and it is 15 minute turns, 200 meters per hex and only platoon level. It would seem DR is border line grand tactical.

As previously mentioned there are some great titles on the entire campaign in a much larger scale. It all depends on what you are looking to experience.

 
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Robert Stuart
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Mallet wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?


I imagine because (1) it's a monster of monsters, and (2) its very flexible move & combat system requires careful thought in planning both an attack and a defense, which lengthens the time for moves.

Regarding VASSAL: the author supports VASSAL completely, and the existence of more VASSAL modules is waiting only for someone to produce them.
 
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Roger Hobden
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bob_santafe wrote:
Mallet wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?


I imagine because (1) it's a monster of monsters, and (2) its very flexible move & combat system requires careful thought in planning both an attack and a defense, which lengthens the time for moves.

Regarding VASSAL: the author supports VASSAL completely, and the existence of more VASSAL modules is waiting only for someone to produce them.


How good are the shorter scenarios ? I don't mind buying a monster game and never playing the full campaign, but the 4 to 10 hour scenarios must be worth it.
 
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Robert Stuart
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Mallet wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
Mallet wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?


I imagine because (1) it's a monster of monsters, and (2) its very flexible move & combat system requires careful thought in planning both an attack and a defense, which lengthens the time for moves.

Regarding VASSAL: the author supports VASSAL completely, and the existence of more VASSAL modules is waiting only for someone to produce them.


How good are the shorter scenarios ? I don't mind buying a monster game and never playing the full campaign, but the 4 to 10 hour scenarios must be worth it.


The shorter scenarios are the same as the campaign game -- only shorter. You can play any single day of the campaign, with historical starting units & positions, rather than the entire campaign.
 
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Roger Hobden
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bob_santafe wrote:
Mallet wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
Mallet wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?


I imagine because (1) it's a monster of monsters, and (2) its very flexible move & combat system requires careful thought in planning both an attack and a defense, which lengthens the time for moves.

Regarding VASSAL: the author supports VASSAL completely, and the existence of more VASSAL modules is waiting only for someone to produce them.


How good are the shorter scenarios ? I don't mind buying a monster game and never playing the full campaign, but the 4 to 10 hour scenarios must be worth it.


The shorter scenarios are the same as the campaign game -- only shorter. You can play any single day of the campaign, with historical starting units & positions, rather than the entire campaign.


So a single day ... can be played in a single day ? cool
 
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Rolf Van Ishem
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Mallet wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
Mallet wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
Mallet wrote:
JG53_Jaguar wrote:
Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


Yeah, great series...should be part of top 10 list!


Only 60 people seem to be playing that game.

Why is that ?


I imagine because (1) it's a monster of monsters, and (2) its very flexible move & combat system requires careful thought in planning both an attack and a defense, which lengthens the time for moves.

Regarding VASSAL: the author supports VASSAL completely, and the existence of more VASSAL modules is waiting only for someone to produce them.


How good are the shorter scenarios ? I don't mind buying a monster game and never playing the full campaign, but the 4 to 10 hour scenarios must be worth it.


The shorter scenarios are the same as the campaign game -- only shorter. You can play any single day of the campaign, with historical starting units & positions, rather than the entire campaign.


So a single day ... can be played in a single day ? cool


So a short scenario can be played in a day and a full campaign in a week? Way to big for most gamers. I am confused why you guys are still pushing this amateur looking game?

I had never heard of it until now and after checking it out I can say it will be forgotten quickly. snore
 
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Jim Bourke
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Thanks for all the suggestions.

Can someone point out to me which game would be the best introductory game for a new wargamer? Something that covers the entire battle would be best for my use (not tactical).

Jim
 
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Rolf Van Ishem
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Peso Pete wrote:
rolfvi wrote:
]So a short scenario can be played in a day and a full campaign in a week? Way to big for most gamers. I am confused why you guys are still pushing this amateur looking game?

I had never heard of it until now and after checking it out I can say it will be forgotten quickly. snore


I would suggest playing a game before judging it so harshly. Just sayin'.

Nobody is "pushing" anything. The OP asked about games on the Battle of Kursk and this series of games is on this battle, so it was brought up. I suggest that instead of judging a game based on appearances or quibbling over the definition of a "tactical game", we stick with what the OP is asking for? shake


Pete I am not trying to insinuate anything, but this game was mentioned multiple times on this post. So it would seem it is being "pushed" just a little. Also a game like this would not be a good starting place for someone starting out. Just saying...
whistle
 
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Roger Hobden
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Peso Pete wrote:
There are a whole series of games on this battle called Death Ride. The Germans are at platoon level while the Russians are mostly at company level. Each turn equals two hours, so it is quite tactical.


I am simply curious.

The Death Ride system has been out for about five years, with more then a half-dozen titles, yet the coverage on BGG is very slim, so it's hard to get an objective measure of the pros and cons of the design choices.

 
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Rich M
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Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943. I think you will enjoy this game. However it is not a grand view of the battle if that is what you are looking for. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38823/conflict-heroes-sto...
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Pete B
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Re: Best games on the Battle of Kursk
Goldberg's Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle, July 1943 is good, as is Zitadelle: Duel for Kursk. For a more tactical feel, you might try SS Panzer: Bloodbath at Kursk, and the L2 games such as Blood & Steel are ok if you want a quick accessible intro.

There is an argument that Kursk is BEST captured by tactical games, as if you try operational, there ain't a lot of movement

I always thought an area treatment would be good...

Pete
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Arthur Dougherty
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Mallet wrote:

I am simply curious.

The Death Ride system has been out for about five years, with more then a half-dozen titles, yet the coverage on BGG is very slim, so it's hard to get an objective measure of the pros and cons of the design choices.


Not sure how much this applies to others, but one of the hosts of Advance After Combat start playing and posting Death Ride Kursk a little while ago. His extensive AARs seem to have generated some buzz in the Advance After Combat guild forums. I know that's where my interest was piqued. Maybe there's enough overlap between the guild forum and the wargame forum to have it suddenly come out of nowhere here if you hadn't seen the coverage over at Advance After Combat.
 
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J.L.Robert wrote:
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Wargames on Kursk 1943


I added one to this list. cool
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