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Subject: A quick review and a few grips about Legendary Villains rss

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This will be just a quick rundown for those that own or have played the original and are thinking of this one. The changes in game play are minor I’ll cover those first, followed by the new key words, and then I’ll end on what I like and don’t like about this game.
Changes in game play: The biggest change in the basics is the addition of New Recruits and that Madam Hydra has Dodge which I will cover later in this review. The New recruits are a 2 cost card that when played give you a 1 attack and allows you to draw a card, they then return to the new recruit deck. They are a great new add to the game and as mentioned in a few others posts can work with the original legendary as well; i.e. civilians rising up to help the heroes. They are a quick burst of power and such a low cost that help you cycle your deck, absolutely nothing to dislike with this new feature. The only other changes are the board which is a play mat now. The city is reversed from the original, they added spots for the master strike/ commander strike and the scheme twists to be placed. These changes are all for the better, they lastly for the mat removed the KO section (but that area can still be used for a KO area). That covers all the changes in layout of the game and new additions beside the key words which we will get into next.
Keywords: Dodge, Demolish, Elusive, and X-treme Attack are all the added key words and new to the game in general. Dodge is the only on that involves cards you can play and doesn’t work against the player. Dodge is a truly wonderful addition it allows you to discard the card with dodge on it and draw another card. Again this lets you cycle your deck must faster and lets you work your hand more in your favor. An example of dodge in work; I see the rare card out in the lair but I am a point or two away from being able to get it. I use the dodge attack cards in my made in hope of drawing the recruit cards I need. This can go the other way as well with Madam Hydra as an example. I really need to KO an adversary but am just shy of being able to, dodge those recruit points and hope to draw some attack. With this covered let’s move the how the other key words simply don’t like you. Demolish can quickly turn a good hand into a useless one. With demolish you reveal the top card of the ally deck note the cost of said card then put on the bottom of the all deck; then everyone has to discard a card from their hand with that same cost; when these add up like with the Hulk and Commander Nick Fury it can be brutal. Elusive isn’t horrible but it’s not helping anything out either; you simply have to have X amount of recruit points before you can fight said adversary. The only one that that this is truly mean is the wasp with an elusive of 7. Last key word is X-treme attack this is a slow builder add up for most of the X-men heroes in various groups you will fight. Each adversary with X-treme attack gets a +1 attack for each other adversary with the same X-treme attack on it. Example I have Havok in the city he is a 4+ with X-treme attack, I start another turn in which the second Havok card shows up not each one is worth 5+ because of the key word. All these key words make the enemies tougher and your hand management better, so they are all good new additions to the Legendary world.
Likes and Dislikes: I need to start with that fact that I love these games but I was hesitant to buy Villains not because I thought I wouldn’t like but because I didn’t see much of change from the original game. I ended up getting it because I knew I would play it regardless. Villains feels less like a new or different game but more like the original just updated a bit with a few adjustments. Would I recommend getting it? Honestly unless you’re like me and want to have all available cards and versions then no. It’s simply not different enough at 60 bucks for someone who doesn’t have a OCD completion need like mine to get. Now with that out of the way the things that truly confused me and annoyed me about this game is the missed potential It really does just feel like a rehash of the original game and then they did a few things that make no sense to me. Like for example why no red skull? Everything basic for the game is Hydra but then you’re missing their leader? Another big thing missing is again previously used key words. Why doesn’t venom have wall crawl? Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport? Simple things they could have included but didn’t. Grated the mechanics of how the characters and commanders work in this game are really cool and finely tuned; but leaving out such things didn’t make any sense. Anyway I hope this help everyone on the fence about this game.
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I wanted to read but the Wall of Text made me stop half way...

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Broken up for you Mike:

mikeevoy wrote:

This will be just a quick rundown for those that own or have played the original and are thinking of this one. The changes in game play are minor I’ll cover those first, followed by the new key words, and then I’ll end on what I like and don’t like about this game.

Changes in game play: The biggest change in the basics is the addition of New Recruits and that Madam Hydra has Dodge which I will cover later in this review.

The New recruits are a 2 cost card that when played give you a 1 attack and allows you to draw a card, they then return to the new recruit deck. They are a great new add to the game and as mentioned in a few others posts can work with the original legendary as well; i.e. civilians rising up to help the heroes. They are a quick burst of power and such a low cost that help you cycle your deck, absolutely nothing to dislike with this new feature. The only other changes are the board which is a play mat now. The city is reversed from the original, they added spots for the master strike/ commander strike and the scheme twists to be placed. These changes are all for the better, they lastly for the mat removed the KO section (but that area can still be used for a KO area). That covers all the changes in layout of the game and new additions beside the key words which we will get into next.

Keywords: Dodge, Demolish, Elusive, and X-treme Attack are all the added key words and new to the game in general.

Dodge is the only on that involves cards you can play and doesn’t work against the player. Dodge is a truly wonderful addition it allows you to discard the card with dodge on it and draw another card. Again this lets you cycle your deck must faster and lets you work your hand more in your favor. An example of dodge in work; I see the rare card out in the lair but I am a point or two away from being able to get it. I use the dodge attack cards in my made in hope of drawing the recruit cards I need. This can go the other way as well with Madam Hydra as an example. I really need to KO an adversary but am just shy of being able to, dodge those recruit points and hope to draw some attack.

With this covered let’s move the how the other key words simply don’t like you.

Demolish can quickly turn a good hand into a useless one. With demolish you reveal the top card of the ally deck note the cost of said card then put on the bottom of the all deck; then everyone has to discard a card from their hand with that same cost; when these add up like with the Hulk and Commander Nick Fury it can be brutal.

Elusive isn’t horrible but it’s not helping anything out either; you simply have to have X amount of recruit points before you can fight said adversary. The only one that that this is truly mean is the wasp with an elusive of 7.

Last key word is X-treme attack this is a slow builder add up for most of the X-men heroes in various groups you will fight. Each adversary with X-treme attack gets a +1 attack for each other adversary with the same X-treme attack on it.

Example I have Havok in the city he is a 4+ with X-treme attack, I start another turn in which the second Havok card shows up not each one is worth 5+ because of the key word.

All these key words make the enemies tougher and your hand management better, so they are all good new additions to the Legendary world.

Likes and Dislikes: I need to start with that fact that I love these games but I was hesitant to buy Villains not because I thought I wouldn’t like but because I didn’t see much of change from the original game. I ended up getting it because I knew I would play it regardless. Villains feels less like a new or different game but more like the original just updated a bit with a few adjustments.

Would I recommend getting it?

Honestly unless you’re like me and want to have all available cards and versions then no. It’s simply not different enough at 60 bucks for someone who doesn’t have a OCD completion need like mine to get.

Now with that out of the way the things that truly confused me and annoyed me about this game is the missed potential It really does just feel like a rehash of the original game and then they did a few things that make no sense to me. Like for example why no red skull? Everything basic for the game is Hydra but then you’re missing their leader? Another big thing missing is again previously used key words. Why doesn’t venom have wall crawl? Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport? Simple things they could have included but didn’t.

Grated the mechanics of how the characters and commanders work in this game are really cool and finely tuned; but leaving out such things didn’t make any sense.

Anyway I hope this help everyone on the fence about this game.
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Liked the review. thumbsup
A simple fix for future reviews for those who are scared off by the wall of text would be to throw in a blank line between sections. By having it in three clearly separate sections it would seem less intimidating.
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How is it "not different enough" when there are 15 brand new characters to play as?

I'll disagree and say there is something to dislike about the New Recruits. You really don't want them early in the game, although they'll tempt you. In the beginning you want things that will stick around, but that attack is enticing. They're good late game, once you have everything to make your deck work, but need ways to draw into those cards.
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DiggetyDog46 wrote:
How is it "not different enough" when there are 15 brand new characters to play as? 


That's just more of the same, nothing new. Personally, I'm perfectly fine with that. I just have problems with the more competitive nature of the game. I like to play solo and many many cards are worthless solo since they attack other players or interact with their decks. Especially the rare cards do that quite often and are pretty much obsolete in solo play.
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I like the fact that it's not RADICALLY different from regular Legendary, but does have a few twists & turns, like the "Take That!" mechanics, New Recruits, etc.

That said, you raise a good point about bonus abilities such as Wall Crawl, which would have made sense for Venom. I wouldn't have wanted to see them thrown in just for the sake of it, but it would have been nice to see them where they made sense.
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DiggetyDog46 wrote:
How is it "not different enough" when there are 15 brand new characters to play as?

I'll disagree and say there is something to dislike about the New Recruits. You really don't want them early in the game, although they'll tempt you. In the beginning you want things that will stick around, but that attack is enticing. They're good late game, once you have everything to make your deck work, but need ways to draw into those cards.

He essentially makes the argument that it isn't different enough, but doesn't share all the same keywords, so it isn't similar enough.

I agree that it is a refinement of the system, but I think anyone getting into a game that shares an engine does so because they like that engine.
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often wrote:

He essentially makes the argument that it isn't different enough, but doesn't share all the same keywords, so it isn't similar enough.

I agree that it is a refinement of the system, but I think anyone getting into a game that shares an engine does so because they like that engine.


Which is a legitimate point. It has not much new to offer but isn't consistent with the old game either so that combining them is sometimes tricky. Just an example: They should have left the board the way it was. With the inverted city spaces, some cards won't work properly anymore and it doesn't add anything to the game. So now you have to remember what every card does and then decide beforehand which board you should use. Hydra and Shield cards should be the same. They have a different symbol but they're both grey so why not make them compatible? If you have heroes and villains cooperate to fight a common enemy, why would Nick Fury not be commanding Hydra troops? It's only temporary till the job gets done. They're arch enemies but when you're trying to stop Galactus from eating your planet, you might put animosities aside for a second. Thematically it would even make fun to KO your Hydra dudes as Nick Fury. Sacrifice THOSE suckers instead of your own men. The same the other way around with villains trashing Shield agents.
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Muse23PT wrote:
I wanted to read but the Wall of Text made me stop half way...


I voted to decline it in the moderation queue but it passed anyway. soblue
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I feel like the gripes are all fairly valid; but I disagree with the conclusion.

I understand that many people seem to think that Red Skull should have been included but I don't really understand why people care enough to keep mentioning it. He'll turn up later on I'm sure, lets just give these guys the due and see what he get later.

I do kinda feel like there was a missed opportunity with not enough of the old keywords being used but since this is a standalone game they needed to make sure it wasn't going to be a complete overload of information for completely new players (I know most owners will probably have both but you need to be accomodating for those that don't).

Personally I feel like I got from this game exactly what I wanted from it. It's exactly what they told me it was going to be and I would still recommend it. Before hand this was basically given to us as "Legendary; but you get to play the bad guys" and that's precisely what it is.
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First Off sorry everyone for the wall of text I've been very busy at work and didn't review my review before clicking the submit button. I also would like to thank everyone for their feed back I find myself agreeing with just about all the comments. I can understand not using the old key words to not over due the game as a new game, but a good amount of the people getting this one I think are owners of the original game; so to me it was a missed opportunity. Also not going to lie I like the new layout a bit better because it helps with clean up and setting up a new game.

Lastly, to my final thoughts point as to the not different enough. I understand the game would be similar because of the game engine but then look at all the changes introduced in Aliens. Either way my point was for those that into the legendary game should play this one before an outright buy, as for those like me that already own the original and all additional expansions its a fun add, just wish it didn't cost me 60 bucks.

Again thanks you all for the feedback comments I feel they will all help those out there still undecided about getting this game.
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"Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport?"

Because Teleport is a Hero/Ally ability, and adversary Nightcrawler is... an Adversary? It'd be like giving the Thing Burrowing.

That said, defeating Nightcrawler provides the victor with a Teleport-like ability.
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Gislef wrote:
"Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport?"

Because Teleport is a Hero/Ally ability, and adversary Nightcrawler is... an Adversary? It'd be like giving the Thing Burrowing.

That said, defeating Nightcrawler provides the victor with a Teleport-like ability.


Azazel has teleport on his card from dark city.
 
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mikeevoy wrote:
Gislef wrote:
"Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport?"

Because Teleport is a Hero/Ally ability, and adversary Nightcrawler is... an Adversary? It'd be like giving the Thing Burrowing.

That said, defeating Nightcrawler provides the victor with a Teleport-like ability.


Azazel has teleport on his card from dark city.


Don't have the card to hand but doesn't azazel give one of the cards in your hand Teleport? Teleport literally can't work on an enemy; because they never get put into your hand so you can't set them aside and draw them into your hand next turn. I'll try to check both cards later (unless someone feels like quoting azazel and nightcrawler for me )
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BertMcCloud wrote:
mikeevoy wrote:
Gislef wrote:
"Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport?"

Because Teleport is a Hero/Ally ability, and adversary Nightcrawler is... an Adversary? It'd be like giving the Thing Burrowing.

That said, defeating Nightcrawler provides the victor with a Teleport-like ability.


Azazel has teleport on his card from dark city.


Don't have the card to hand but doesn't azazel give one of the cards in your hand Teleport? Teleport literally can't work on an enemy; because they never get put into your hand so you can't set them aside and draw them into your hand next turn. I'll try to check both cards later (unless someone feels like quoting azazel and nightcrawler for me )


Azazel: fight: a card in your hand gains teleport this turn.

It uses the bold Kay word in the fight effects which getting back to the main point as this should have been the same case for nightcrawler. Instead they went and gave him the same power without using the key word doesn't make any sense.
 
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mikeevoy wrote:
Azazel: fight: a card in your hand gains teleport this turn.

It uses the bold Kay word in the fight effects which getting back to the main point as this should have been the same case for nightcrawler. Instead they went and gave him the same power without using the key word doesn't make any sense.


I honestly think it makes perfect sense. Why include a keyword for one card? No one is going to expect you to ignore the heroes game when talking about Villains but you really do have to try and think about it as a standalone game and remember that there could be people that only own one of the games. If you introduce a keyword for a single card that just causes more trouble than it's worth.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you mean, it really does feel like it should have been there; but for one card it's just not worth it.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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BertMcCloud wrote:
mikeevoy wrote:
Azazel: fight: a card in your hand gains teleport this turn.

It uses the bold Kay word in the fight effects which getting back to the main point as this should have been the same case for nightcrawler. Instead they went and gave him the same power without using the key word doesn't make any sense.


I honestly think it makes perfect sense. Why include a keyword for one card? No one is going to expect you to ignore the heroes game when talking about Villains but you really do have to try and think about it as a standalone game and remember that there could be people that only own one of the games. If you introduce a keyword for a single card that just causes more trouble than it's worth.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you mean, it really does feel like it should have been there; but for one card it's just not worth it.

Just my 2 cents.


Yeah but either way from the trend I think it's safe to say every expansion will have its own key words that will show up in said expansion. Excellent point on the why for one card but then why put that one card in the base game? Why not bring in night crawler later with an expansion back that has a playable azazel?
 
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mikeevoy wrote:
Excellent point on the why for one card but then why put that one card in the base game? Why not bring in night crawler later with an expansion back that has a playable azazel?


An equally valid point; for which I have no answer. I can only assume that they just wanted to use him because it fitted. I would most certainly agree though that he probably could have been left out until later when Teleport (or whatever new keyword they want to allow) is introduced.
 
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One thing that occurred to me is that you get the new Dodge ability in this one, which is probably a good reason (from a design/marketing standpoint) to hold off on introducing other (already existing) Abilities until the expansions (we hope!).
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mikeevoy wrote:

This will be just a quick rundown for those that own or have played the original and are thinking of this one. The changes in game play are minor I’ll cover those first, followed by the new key words, and then I’ll end on what I like and don’t like about this game.
Changes in game play: The biggest change in the basics is the addition of New Recruits and that Madam Hydra has Dodge which I will cover later in this review. The New recruits are a 2 cost card that when played give you a 1 attack and allows you to draw a card, they then return to the new recruit deck. They are a great new add to the game and as mentioned in a few others posts can work with the original legendary as well; i.e. civilians rising up to help the heroes. They are a quick burst of power and such a low cost that help you cycle your deck, absolutely nothing to dislike with this new feature. The only other changes are the board which is a play mat now. The city is reversed from the original, they added spots for the master strike/ commander strike and the scheme twists to be placed. These changes are all for the better, they lastly for the mat removed the KO section (but that area can still be used for a KO area). That covers all the changes in layout of the game and new additions beside the key words which we will get into next.
Keywords: Dodge, Demolish, Elusive, and X-treme Attack are all the added key words and new to the game in general. Dodge is the only on that involves cards you can play and doesn’t work against the player. Dodge is a truly wonderful addition it allows you to discard the card with dodge on it and draw another card. Again this lets you cycle your deck must faster and lets you work your hand more in your favor. An example of dodge in work; I see the rare card out in the lair but I am a point or two away from being able to get it. I use the dodge attack cards in my made in hope of drawing the recruit cards I need. This can go the other way as well with Madam Hydra as an example. I really need to KO an adversary but am just shy of being able to, dodge those recruit points and hope to draw some attack. With this covered let’s move the how the other key words simply don’t like you. Demolish can quickly turn a good hand into a useless one. With demolish you reveal the top card of the ally deck note the cost of said card then put on the bottom of the all deck; then everyone has to discard a card from their hand with that same cost; when these add up like with the Hulk and Commander Nick Fury it can be brutal. Elusive isn’t horrible but it’s not helping anything out either; you simply have to have X amount of recruit points before you can fight said adversary. The only one that that this is truly mean is the wasp with an elusive of 7. Last key word is X-treme attack this is a slow builder add up for most of the X-men heroes in various groups you will fight. Each adversary with X-treme attack gets a +1 attack for each other adversary with the same X-treme attack on it. Example I have Havok in the city he is a 4+ with X-treme attack, I start another turn in which the second Havok card shows up not each one is worth 5+ because of the key word. All these key words make the enemies tougher and your hand management better, so they are all good new additions to the Legendary world.
Likes and Dislikes: I need to start with that fact that I love these games but I was hesitant to buy Villains not because I thought I wouldn’t like but because I didn’t see much of change from the original game. I ended up getting it because I knew I would play it regardless. Villains feels less like a new or different game but more like the original just updated a bit with a few adjustments. Would I recommend getting it? Honestly unless you’re like me and want to have all available cards and versions then no. It’s simply not different enough at 60 bucks for someone who doesn’t have a OCD completion need like mine to get. Now with that out of the way the things that truly confused me and annoyed me about this game is the missed potential It really does just feel like a rehash of the original game and then they did a few things that make no sense to me. Like for example why no red skull? Everything basic for the game is Hydra but then you’re missing their leader? Another big thing missing is again previously used key words. Why doesn’t venom have wall crawl? Why doesn’t the adversary Nightcrawler have teleport? Simple things they could have included but didn’t. Grated the mechanics of how the characters and commanders work in this game are really cool and finely tuned; but leaving out such things didn’t make any sense. Anyway I hope this help everyone on the fence about this game.


They can't give teleport to nightcrawler because you don't add him to your hand. He goes to your victory pile so that would be impossible.

Also, I think they didn't put red skull because frankly, he's not exactly the character that people most want to play with. When I thought about LV. I was mostly looking forward to playing chars like venom, magneto, Bull's eye, doom (even though he didn't show up) and Loki. (And yeah, Juggernaut. Just so everytime I play on of his cards I can yell"I'M DA JUGERNAUT BITCH!"

3rd point. The reason they don't use previously used keywords (even when they could) is because it gives people the perception that they're not getting a new product. If they had done so. I can assure you these forums would have been full of people complaining that it was just more of the same. Just like if they put a new mechanic and DON'T keyword it, people feel nothing was added. Even though it's still there.

When you design a game, it's important to give it its own identity as much as possible. Re-using a lot of old keywords would work against that goal. Expansions might include them though. But I think it was the right call for the base game.
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DiggetyDog46 wrote:
How is it "not different enough" when there are 15 brand new characters to play as?

I'll disagree and say there is something to dislike about the New Recruits. You really don't want them early in the game, although they'll tempt you. In the beginning you want things that will stick around, but that attack is enticing. They're good late game, once you have everything to make your deck work, but need ways to draw into those cards.


I can't see how new recruits are bad early game. They replace themselves when you play them, so you still get whichever card you would have drawn instead. And if you can only have two recruit points, there's nothing else you could have done anyway. Also if the first card you bought was a kingpin, you'll want to buy them early while the allies in the lair refreshes and you can get another kingpin.

Plus, late game, they don't help you draw into your cards at all. If you hadn't bought them, you'd be drawing the cards they'd give you instead.

But really, if a player buys the wrong cards for them, that's their own fault.
 
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9inchnail wrote:
often wrote:

He essentially makes the argument that it isn't different enough, but doesn't share all the same keywords, so it isn't similar enough.

I agree that it is a refinement of the system, but I think anyone getting into a game that shares an engine does so because they like that engine.


Which is a legitimate point. It has not much new to offer but isn't consistent with the old game either so that combining them is sometimes tricky. Just an example: They should have left the board the way it was. With the inverted city spaces, some cards won't work properly anymore and it doesn't add anything to the game. So now you have to remember what every card does and then decide beforehand which board you should use. Hydra and Shield cards should be the same. They have a different symbol but they're both grey so why not make them compatible? If you have heroes and villains cooperate to fight a common enemy, why would Nick Fury not be commanding Hydra troops? It's only temporary till the job gets done. They're arch enemies but when you're trying to stop Galactus from eating your planet, you might put animosities aside for a second. Thematically it would even make fun to KO your Hydra dudes as Nick Fury. Sacrifice THOSE suckers instead of your own men. The same the other way around with villains trashing Shield agents.


Which cards don't work with the Vilains City spaces? The rules do say that if you play a scheme/plot that references specific city spaces, you must play with the board that matched the scheme/plot. But character abilities don't seem affected. But I haven't tried it yet.

Personally. If I mix the sets, I'll make any cards that refer to shield agents or hydra agents interchangable. That way you can mix any cards you want. Those cards are functionally identical so there's no reason to stick to the card text. Playing green goblin and having it do nothing because you have shield agents instead of hydra ones doesn't make sense.
I think that'S what most people will do. It seems intuitive to me.
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Dan Smith
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jumbit wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
I wanted to read but the Wall of Text made me stop half way...


I voted to decline it in the moderation queue but it passed anyway. soblue


Formatted text actually takes longer to read.
 
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9inchnail wrote:
DiggetyDog46 wrote:
How is it "not different enough" when there are 15 brand new characters to play as? 


That's just more of the same, nothing new. Personally, I'm perfectly fine with that. I just have problems with the more competitive nature of the game. I like to play solo and many many cards are worthless solo since they attack other players or interact with their decks. Especially the rare cards do that quite often and are pretty much obsolete in solo play.


That is true. For their defense though, solo players are a minority, so it's understandable they assume the game will be played by two or more players and design most cards with that in mind. Some cards like spider-man are geared more towards solo, some like Loki more towards multiplayer. Each group gets their cards but you can't please everyone.
 
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