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Subject: Botched execution in Arizona rss

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Jon Badolato
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It took two hours for an Arizona prisoner to be executed and finally die during a lethal injection procedure.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/23/334632862/ari...

Questions:

Do you believe in the death penalty, why or why not ?

Is this type of botched execution worrisome in any way. Does it qualify as cruel and unusual punishment as some would state.


Personally, I understand the reasoning behind the death penalty but am uncomfortable with it morally. If it is to be legal then I would like to see it be a top priority of the state to ensure that it's as quick as possible.

If they can do it to my dog in ten minutes why does there seem to be such a problem with doing it quickly with a human. Other than sheer size and weight our physiologies are not that different.

Two hours to die seems too much.

Thoughts ?
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Quote:
Questions:

Do you believe in the death penalty, why or why not ?


No I do not, as I do not believe it deters crime, but does create the idea that killing people can be justified.

Quote:

Is this type of botched execution worrisome in any way. Does it qualify as cruel and unusual punishment as some would state.
Yes it is, the idea that not only should a criminal die, but should suffer says more about the inherent (but suppressed) sadism of (some) people the anything else.

A people are judged by the quality of their mercy.


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Moshe Callen
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In theory, yes, but in practice, no.
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I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.
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TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.


You are a delightful individual.
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she2 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.


You are a delightful individual.


And murderers are so much better than me.
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The inability of our Justice system to divine truth with any degree of consistency makes the Death Penalty immoral.
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Moshe Callen
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TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."
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whac3 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."


Isnt what I said, doing unto others as they have done unto others?
 
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TheDashi wrote:
whac3 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."


Isnt what I said, doing unto others as they have done unto others?
No.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
whac3 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."


Isnt what I said, doing unto others as they have done unto others?
No.


So doing what they did to them, the same thing that they did to someone else......... that is NOT doing unto them, what they have done unto others?
Yeah......makes perfect sense.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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TheDashi wrote:
she2 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.


You are a delightful individual.


And murderers are so much better than me.
No, but if you want to kill people in horrific ways I am not sure that makes you nay better.
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TheDashi wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
whac3 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."


Isnt what I said, doing unto others as they have done unto others?
No.


So doing what they did to them, the same thing that they did to someone else......... that is NOT doing unto them, what they have done unto others?
Yeah......makes perfect sense.
Except they are not doing it, someone else is. If their victims requested and carried out the punishment you might have a point.
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Moshe Callen
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TheDashi wrote:
whac3 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."


Isnt what I said, doing unto others as they have done unto others?

which does not refute what I said.
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As someone who spent time in Arizona, I don't believe in pretty much anything that Arizona does, governmentally. When their basic concern and care for inmates catches up to, say, Texas, then I'll be happy to talk about niceties like ideas and beliefs.
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If we could be absolutely sure of a person's guilt and the crime is horrific enough, then yes I support the death penalty if it can be applied fairly etc. In practice, we can't be so certain of a person's guilt in any but the most rare cases and the application of the death penalty is prone to systematic prejudices, etc.

As for doing what was done to victims, if the crime is so awful that the perpetrator need be removed from society for the benefit of society, then society is hardly benefited by a repeat. As for vengeance, it is not compatible with justice, and I'd rather have the latter.
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TheChin! wrote:
The inability of our Justice system to divine truth with any degree of consistency makes the Death Penalty immoral.


Bullshit. Complete, utter, bullshit.

There was never any question as to this lowlife's cold-hearted execution of his former girlfriend and her father. It was done in front of plenty of witnesses, including a cop.

So the truth is divined easily, as it is in many cases of brutal slayings by people who don't deserve to draw another single breath. Fuck this guy. What about his victims? As for the procedure? Fine, I'm not going to whine about whether he was uncomfortable, just suggest that a firing squad may be the best alternative for these monsters.

Quote:
Defendant shot and killed his estranged girlfriend Debra Dietz ("Debra") and her father Eugene Dietz ("Eugene") on Monday, August 7, 1989, at a Tucson automotive paint and body shop ("the shop") owned and operated by the Dietz family.

Since 1984, Defendant and Debra had maintained a tumultuous relationship increasingly marred by Defendant's abusive and violent behavior. Eugene generally disapproved of this relationship but did not actively interfere. In fact, the Dietz family often included Defendant in dinners and other activities. Several times, however, Eugene refused to let Defendant visit Debra during business hours while she was working at the shop. Defendant disliked Eugene and told him he would "get him back" and that Eugene would "be sorry."

Debra had rented an apartment that she shared with Defendant. Because Defendant was seldom employed, Debra supported him financially. Defendant nevertheless assaulted Debra periodically.[1] She finally tried to end the relationship after a fight during the 1989 July 4th weekend. She left her apartment and moved in with her parents, saying "I don't want any more of this." After Debra left, Defendant ransacked and vandalized the apartment. She obtained an order of protection against Defendant on July 8, 1989. In the following weeks, however, Defendant repeatedly tried to contact Debra at the shop, her parents' home, and her apartment.[2]

Debra and Eugene drove together to work at the shop early on Monday morning, August 7, 1989. Defendant phoned the shop three times that morning. Debra hung up on him once, and Eugene hung up on him twice. Defendant called again and asked another employee if Debra and Eugene were at the shop. The employee said that they had temporarily left but would return soon. Debra and Eugene came back at 8:30 a.m. and began working in different areas of the shop. Six other employees were also present that morning.

At 8:50 a.m., a Tucson Police officer saw Defendant driving in a suspicious manner near the shop. The officer slowed her patrol car and made eye contact with Defendant as he left his truck and entered the shop. Eugene was on the telephone in an area where three other employees were working. Defendant waited for Eugene to hang up, drew a revolver, and approached to within four feet of him. The other employees shouted for Defendant to put the gun away. Without saying a word, Defendant fatally shot Eugene once in the chest and then smiled. When the police officer saw this from her patrol car she immediately called for more officers. Defendant left the shop, but quickly returned and again pointed his revolver at *61 the now supine Eugene. Donald Dietz, an employee and Eugene's seventy-year-old brother, struggled with Defendant, who then ran to the area where Debra had been working.

Debra had apparently heard an employee shout that her father had been shot and was trying to telephone for help when Defendant grabbed her around the neck from behind and placed his revolver directly against her chest. Debra struggled and screamed, "No, Joe, don't!" Another employee heard Defendant say, "I told you I was going to do it, I have to kill you." Defendant then called Debra a "bitch" and shot her twice in the chest.

Several police officers were already on the scene when Defendant left the shop after shooting Debra. Two officers ordered him to put his hands up. Defendant complied and dropped his weapon, but then grabbed it and began raising it toward the officers. After again ordering Defendant to raise his hands, the officers shot Defendant several times.
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TheDashi wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
whac3 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
I say kill them just as how they killed people, if they were murderers.

The Not So Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You Would Not Have Them Do Unto You."


Isnt what I said, doing unto others as they have done unto others?
No.


So doing what they did to them, the same thing that they did to someone else......... that is NOT doing unto them, what they have done unto others?
Yeah......makes perfect sense.


An eye for an eye is the biblical passage you are looking for. Even a fucking ex-Catholic turned agonistic knows that.
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DWTripp wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
The inability of our Justice system to divine truth with any degree of consistency makes the Death Penalty immoral.


Bullshit. Complete, utter, bullshit.

There was never any question as to this lowlife's cold-hearted execution of his former girlfriend and her father. It was done in front of plenty of witnesses, including a cop.

So the truth is divined easily, as it is in many cases of brutal slayings by people who don't deserve to draw another single breath. Fuck this guy. What about his victims? As for the procedure? Fine, I'm not going to whine about whether he was uncomfortable, just suggest that a firing squad may be the best alternative for these monsters.

Quote:
Defendant shot and killed his estranged girlfriend Debra Dietz ("Debra") and her father Eugene Dietz ("Eugene") on Monday, August 7, 1989, at a Tucson automotive paint and body shop ("the shop") owned and operated by the Dietz family.

Since 1984, Defendant and Debra had maintained a tumultuous relationship increasingly marred by Defendant's abusive and violent behavior. Eugene generally disapproved of this relationship but did not actively interfere. In fact, the Dietz family often included Defendant in dinners and other activities. Several times, however, Eugene refused to let Defendant visit Debra during business hours while she was working at the shop. Defendant disliked Eugene and told him he would "get him back" and that Eugene would "be sorry."

Debra had rented an apartment that she shared with Defendant. Because Defendant was seldom employed, Debra supported him financially. Defendant nevertheless assaulted Debra periodically.[1] She finally tried to end the relationship after a fight during the 1989 July 4th weekend. She left her apartment and moved in with her parents, saying "I don't want any more of this." After Debra left, Defendant ransacked and vandalized the apartment. She obtained an order of protection against Defendant on July 8, 1989. In the following weeks, however, Defendant repeatedly tried to contact Debra at the shop, her parents' home, and her apartment.[2]

Debra and Eugene drove together to work at the shop early on Monday morning, August 7, 1989. Defendant phoned the shop three times that morning. Debra hung up on him once, and Eugene hung up on him twice. Defendant called again and asked another employee if Debra and Eugene were at the shop. The employee said that they had temporarily left but would return soon. Debra and Eugene came back at 8:30 a.m. and began working in different areas of the shop. Six other employees were also present that morning.

At 8:50 a.m., a Tucson Police officer saw Defendant driving in a suspicious manner near the shop. The officer slowed her patrol car and made eye contact with Defendant as he left his truck and entered the shop. Eugene was on the telephone in an area where three other employees were working. Defendant waited for Eugene to hang up, drew a revolver, and approached to within four feet of him. The other employees shouted for Defendant to put the gun away. Without saying a word, Defendant fatally shot Eugene once in the chest and then smiled. When the police officer saw this from her patrol car she immediately called for more officers. Defendant left the shop, but quickly returned and again pointed his revolver at *61 the now supine Eugene. Donald Dietz, an employee and Eugene's seventy-year-old brother, struggled with Defendant, who then ran to the area where Debra had been working.

Debra had apparently heard an employee shout that her father had been shot and was trying to telephone for help when Defendant grabbed her around the neck from behind and placed his revolver directly against her chest. Debra struggled and screamed, "No, Joe, don't!" Another employee heard Defendant say, "I told you I was going to do it, I have to kill you." Defendant then called Debra a "bitch" and shot her twice in the chest.

Several police officers were already on the scene when Defendant left the shop after shooting Debra. Two officers ordered him to put his hands up. Defendant complied and dropped his weapon, but then grabbed it and began raising it toward the officers. After again ordering Defendant to raise his hands, the officers shot Defendant several times.
Maybe in this case, but the question is about the death penalty in general I thought.
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1. I think we all can agree there is a difference between murder and killing. If stealing a car got you 50 years in prison and murder got you 1 year, then our society would be saying that car stealing is worse then murder.
Capital punishment is our society's way of saying murder is one of the worst crimes you can commit.



2. why is it all other forms of punishment work for all other crimes and yet capital punishment does somehow not work? Everyone acknowledges that punishments can deter all other crimes -- why wouldn't capital punishment deter some murders? Is murder the only crime unaffected by punishment? Because that argument is nonsense. If capital punishment were only enforced on weekdays and not on the weekends, would the murder rates remain the same for the entire week ? Of course not, weekends would become like Chicago.

3. Innocents may be executed ? true, but its extremely rare especially give today's science. has there even been proved case of mistaken execution in America in the last 50 years ? yes, I acknowledge the possibility of an innocent being killed by the state because of a mistaken murder conviction. But if we remove the death penalty from our society, we have no idea how many innocent people will be murdered by embolden criminals.

4. a two hour death is not cruel or unusual given his crime.

Quote:
Joseph Wood, who was born in Texas in 1958, had been convicted of murder and assault for the 1989 killings of his estranged girlfriend Debra Dietz and her father, Eugene Dietz.[3][4]

Wood had been involved in a tumultuous 5-year relationship with Debra, during which time Wood became increasingly violent towards her. Wood physically assaulted Debra on multiple occasions. On July 4, 1989, Debra moved in with her parents, attempting to end the relationship. Debra filed and received a protection order against Wood, but despite this, Wood repeatedly attempted to contact Debra at her parents' home and at the automotive paint shop owned by the Dietz family, where she and her father, Eugene Dietz, were employed.

On August 7, 1989, Wood drove to the shop, where Eugene, Debra, and other employees were working. He approached Eugene, drew a revolver, and fired one shot into Eugene's chest, fatally wounding him. Debra attempted to call for help, but Wood grabbed her by the neck from behind and placed the gun to her chest. She screamed "No Joe, don't", to which Wood replied "I told you I was going to do it, I have to kill you." Wood then shot Debra twice in the chest.

Wood was convicted of two counts of first degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault against a police officer. He was sentenced to death for each murder and received 15-year prison sentences, set to run concurrently, for the aggravated assault convictions.[5]


And finally, the death penalty certainly has deterred another murderer, namely Mr. Woods.
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Dave G
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After the botched execution in Oklahoma earlier this year, I said this. I'll stand by it.

Some time ago, I wrote:
My objection to the death penalty has more to do with the astounding number of death row inmates who are exonerated by new evidence or exposing bad police work. I don't think the state has any business killing innocent people, and I think if the state can't figure out a way to make sure they're not killing innocents they shouldn't kill anyone. Then again, in the past I've also said that a second DUI should carry a death sentence, so maybe I'm a little scattered on the subject.

As for this case, I'm with you on not feeling all that sympathetic to the victim in terms of comparing what happened to him with what he did. I have a hard time not feeling some sympathy for him simply as a human, though. If we're going to kill people, kill people, but state-administered torture seems pretty fucking barbaric. That doesn't excuse his crimes, that doesn't mean I think he should have been rehabilitated and given a job sweeping floors at a church, just that I think it's pretty terrible that the state can't even manage to kill a man properly.

That said, I think a lot of the problem is the bullshit that surrounds the death penalty as it is. We go to all these lengths to pretend that there's some kindness or dignity to the process, but we're fucking killing someone. Dispense with the big show and the families watching and all that nonsense. Take the prisoner to the yard, shoot him twice in the head at close range, and be done with it. I'm not any more in favor of that than I am the regular death penalty, but for fuck's sake let's stop with the pageantry about it. All these lengths we go to for a "comfortable" death are ridiculous.

The one aspect of this story I found truly disturbing was the stories about the prison system trying to keep the method of execution secret, buying execution drugs off the books and what not so that lawyers can't argue that the means is cruel and unusual. That's just embarrassing for a first-world country. If we're going to be a culture that kills people for their crimes, let's just fucking do it. You can't dress it up into something nice and genteel, it's a fucking killing.
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she2 wrote:

An eye for an eye is the biblical passage you are looking for. Even a fucking ex-Catholic turned agonistic knows that.

We Jews like to point out that the phrase translated that way occurs in a list of purely monetary penalties but no one usually listens.
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DWTripp wrote:

Bullshit. Complete, utter, bullshit.

There was never any question as to this lowlife's cold-hearted execution of his former girlfriend and her father. It was done in front of plenty of witnesses, including a cop.

So the truth is divined easily, as it is in many cases of brutal slayings by people who don't deserve to draw another single breath. Fuck this guy. What about his victims? As for the procedure? Fine, I'm not going to whine about whether he was uncomfortable, just suggest that a firing squad may be the best alternative for these monsters.


First of all I was replying to the OP's question about the concept of the Death Penalty. Secondly, I don't know that this guy was not damaged in ways current science can't deal with or define. Even if he is guilty of the act, I'm not convinced of his guilt as a rational actor. Until we understand humans better, it's more humane to keep the damaged segregated from normal society.
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slatersteven wrote:
Maybe in this case, but the question is about the death penalty in general I thought.


Thank you numb-nuts. It's pretty clear that I was responding to Chin! and his clueless assertion that the DP is immoral because "we can never be certain" about the truth of a homicide.

That's why I included his quote in my response. You already know my take on the DP because I started a thread about it the other day. This event in Arizona doesn't change my perspective on the value of the DP to society as a whole, just that we need to be better at carrying it out.
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jeremycobert wrote:


3. Innocents may be executed ? true, but its extremely rare especially give today's science. has there even been proved case of mistaken execution in America in the last 50 years ? yes, I acknowledge the possibility of an innocent being killed by the state because of a mistaken murder conviction. But if we remove the death penalty from our society, we have no idea how many innocent people will be murdered by embolden criminals.



According to this, 144 people on death row were exonerated between 1973 and March 2014.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-d...
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