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Subject: Lukas: Copycat and Himitsu Bako rss

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Harris Enniss
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From Lukas:

Quote:
Q: Suppose I have Copycat installed. I make a run and encounter Himitsu Bako. I break the subroutine. Still at 3.1, the corp chooses to trigger the paid ability of Himitsu Bako. Can I trigger Copycat?

A: Thanks for the question. You cannot trigger Copycat because there is no longer an active reference to the piece of ice that was passed. Hope that helps,


 
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This seems to contradict the previous ruling that Copycat *can* work with ICE that is trashed during the encounter, such as Paper Wall or via Parasite. Why does ICE moving to Archives differ from ICE moving to HQ?
 
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norat13 15
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I think the corp is triggering paid ability of the second Himitsu Bako.

So say you're running HQ with Himitsu Bako protecting it. There is also a Himitsu Bako installed on a remote. You pass the HQ Himitsu. If the corp triggers the paid ability on the HQ Himitsu, you can still use copycat to jump over to the remote Himitsu. But if the corp triggers the paid ability on the remote Himitsu while leaving the HQ Himitsu alone, you have no where to go.
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norat13 wrote:
I think the corp is triggering paid ability of the second Himitsu Bako.

So say you're running HQ with Himitsu Bako protecting it. There is also a Himitsu Bako installed on a remote. You pass the HQ Himitsu. If the corp triggers the paid ability on the HQ Himitsu, you can still use copycat to jump over to the remote Himitsu. But if the corp triggers the paid ability on the remote Himitsu while leaving the HQ Himitsu alone, you have no where to go.


I'd agree with you if that's what the answer referred to, but it isn't. That's just not what the answer says.

"...Copycat because there is no longer an active reference to the piece of ice that was passed..."

The existing ruling doesn't mention parasite, but it does mention paper wall:
faq wrote:

Can the Runner use Copycat after breaking the subroutine on
Paper Wall?

Yes. Even though the Paper Wall is trashed, the ice is still passed.


Paper wall trashes when all of the subroutines on it are broken during an encounter.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is a paradoxical ruling. Maybe there's something that makes it ok, but my guess is Lukas didn't consider the other case when making the ruling or knows something we don't.
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Aaron Smith
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gumOnShoe wrote:
norat13 wrote:
I think the corp is triggering paid ability of the second Himitsu Bako.

So say you're running HQ with Himitsu Bako protecting it. There is also a Himitsu Bako installed on a remote. You pass the HQ Himitsu. If the corp triggers the paid ability on the HQ Himitsu, you can still use copycat to jump over to the remote Himitsu. But if the corp triggers the paid ability on the remote Himitsu while leaving the HQ Himitsu alone, you have no where to go.


I'd agree with you if that's what the answer referred to, but it isn't. That's just not what the answer says.

"...Copycat because there is no longer an active reference to the piece of ice that was passed..."

The existing ruling doesn't mention parasite, but it does mention paper wall:
faq wrote:

Can the Runner use Copycat after breaking the subroutine on
Paper Wall?

Yes. Even though the Paper Wall is trashed, the ice is still passed.


Paper wall trashes when all of the subroutines on it are broken during an encounter.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is a paradoxical ruling. Maybe there's something that makes it ok, but my guess is Lukas didn't consider the other case when making the ruling or knows something we don't.


I think that the wording could still match norat13's interpretation. What Lukas might be saying is that the Himitsu Bako on the remote is the "active reference" and if it's pulled back into HQ, then it would "no longer exist". So perhaps a clarification is in order?
 
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MinisterOfPropaganda wrote:
I think that the wording could still match norat13's interpretation.


I strongly, but amicably, disagree. Lukas pretty clearly says there's no reference to the ice that was just passed. Copy cat looks for the ice that was passed. That's clearly the one that the runner is breaking.

I wish this ruling made sense. I think what norat said is entirely true. You wouldn't be able to jump to an ice that doesn't exist. Lukas is saying you can't jump from an ice that no longer exists in his response. The FAQ clearly disagrees. Printed materials take precedence, so in this case I wouldn't trust Lukas's answer.
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Harris Enniss
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DrTall wrote:
This seems to contradict the previous ruling that Copycat *can* work with ICE that is trashed during the encounter, such as Paper Wall or via Parasite. Why does ICE moving to Archives differ from ICE moving to HQ?


I have seen the ruling regarding Copycat and Paper Wall. Can you cite the ruling regarding Copycat and Parasite?
 
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henniss wrote:
DrTall wrote:
This seems to contradict the previous ruling that Copycat *can* work with ICE that is trashed during the encounter, such as Paper Wall or via Parasite. Why does ICE moving to Archives differ from ICE moving to HQ?


I have seen the ruling regarding Copycat and Paper Wall. Can you cite the ruling regarding Copycat and Parasite?


Actually I think I goofed up. In reality I think that what I remembered was the ruling on Paper Wall and then folks (including me) concluding that it would logically extend to Parasite. Sorry!
 
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Marty Kay
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By the sounds of the example given, the Himitsu Bako is broken, priority is then passed to the Corp (to use the paid effect of returning it), priority passes back the the runner who then tries but fails to move via Copycat because the Himitsu Bako is no longer in play to be a reference?

When breaking the subroutine on Paper Wall, it is still the runners priority to then activate Copycat, moving to another Paper Wall. *

Which would mean that the runner could break the Himitsu Bako subroutine AND then Copycat to a different one. You just can't do it after the Corp gets the chance to return the ICE to their HQ, ie you can't say "I'll Copycat in response to your returning the ICE".

* I have an problem with the timing sequence here, as the conditional ability on Paper Wall triggers after the breaking of the subroutine(s) and presumably before the Runner could activate Copycat, even without passing priority. Since abilities are meant to fully resolve (unless a Prevent/Avoid ability takes precedence), this would imply the Paper Wall is removed from play before Copycat can activate. Unless I have the timing wrong?

TL;DR: set out to show that the OP ruling sounded right to me, ended up confused whether the FAQ ruling makes any sense
 
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Andrew V
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Would it make a difference that Paper wall moves to the archives which is still on the table just relocated,

while Himitsu Bako is returned to HQ and thus 'ceasing' (in a sense) to exist.
 
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Tim Meng
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martykay wrote:
By the sounds of the example given, the Himitsu Bako is broken, priority is then passed to the Corp (to use the paid effect of returning it), priority passes back the the runner who then tries but fails to move via Copycat because the Himitsu Bako is no longer in play to be a reference?

When breaking the subroutine on Paper Wall, it is still the runners priority to then activate Copycat, moving to another Paper Wall. *

Which would mean that the runner could break the Himitsu Bako subroutine AND then Copycat to a different one. You just can't do it after the Corp gets the chance to return the ICE to their HQ, ie you can't say "I'll Copycat in response to your returning the ICE".

* I have an problem with the timing sequence here, as the conditional ability on Paper Wall triggers after the breaking of the subroutine(s) and presumably before the Runner could activate Copycat, even without passing priority. Since abilities are meant to fully resolve (unless a Prevent/Avoid ability takes precedence), this would imply the Paper Wall is removed from play before Copycat can activate. Unless I have the timing wrong?

TL;DR: set out to show that the OP ruling sounded right to me, ended up confused whether the FAQ ruling makes any sense


Copycat is a triggered ability that triggers after the paid ability window has closed, so in either case (Paper Wall or Himitsu Bako), the ice has left play before Copycat can trigger.

As soon as the ice leaves play, the encounter ends, and at that point, the ice is considered to be "passed". However, why Paper Wall is a valid Copycat ice after being trashed, but Himitsu Bako is not after being returned to HQ, I have no clue. I honestly thought when I asked the one about Paper Wall several months back that he was going to say it wouldn't work.

I'm thinking he probably changed his mind on the interaction, but forgot that he had already made a similar ruling.
 
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Tim Meng
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Aiscool wrote:
Would it make a difference that Paper wall moves to the archives which is still on the table just relocated,

while Himitsu Bako is returned to HQ and thus 'ceasing' (in a sense) to exist.


No. Neither location leaves the ice in question in an active state, so either both should allow Copycat to work (which seems weird to explain), or neither should allow Copycat to work.
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Troy Jennings
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martykay wrote:
By the sounds of the example given, the Himitsu Bako is broken, priority is then passed to the Corp (to use the paid effect of returning it), priority passes back the the runner who then tries but fails to move via Copycat because the Himitsu Bako is no longer in play to be a reference?


Priority doesn't quite work this way in Netrunner. In your paid ability window you can activate any number of paid abilities and resolve them all before priority passes to the other player.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Trithne wrote:
martykay wrote:
By the sounds of the example given, the Himitsu Bako is broken, priority is then passed to the Corp (to use the paid effect of returning it), priority passes back the the runner who then tries but fails to move via Copycat because the Himitsu Bako is no longer in play to be a reference?


Priority doesn't quite work this way in Netrunner. In your paid ability window you can activate any number of paid abilities and resolve them all before priority passes to the other player.


Copycat works on a trigger; it's NOT a paid ability anyway. Copycat is triggered BY passing a piece of ICE. The FAQ has clarified that if ICE is trashed during an encounter it is passed; if ICE is withdrawn, I guess the encounter ends without passing? Which is weird, but that's the ruling for now :S
 
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Copycat works on a trigger; it's NOT a paid ability anyway. Copycat is triggered BY passing a piece of ICE. The FAQ has clarified that if ICE is trashed during an encounter it is passed; if ICE is withdrawn, I guess the encounter ends without passing? Which is weird, but that's the ruling for now :S


That'd be the stuff that only Lukas knows. Probably worth trying to clarify the situation again. :/
 
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Tim Meng
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CommissarFeesh wrote:

Copycat works on a trigger; it's NOT a paid ability anyway. Copycat is triggered BY passing a piece of ICE. The FAQ has clarified that if ICE is trashed during an encounter it is passed; if ICE is withdrawn, I guess the encounter ends without passing? Which is weird, but that's the ruling for now :S


It's just an inconsistent ruling. The ice is still considered to be passed in either situation.

I'm sure if someone points it out to him, Lukas will reverse one of the rulings.
 
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