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Subject: Why are Romulans supposed to be bad? rss

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Stephen Thorpe
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I was just reading another thread and I saw a recurrence of the "Wizkids hates Romulans" opinion.

Can someone please explain to me why they feel Romulans are getting the short end of the stick as I really don't see it.

Obviously this will only apply to faction-pure builds as if people are free to mix cards from all factions then you just take whatever cards are appropriate regardless of faction.
 
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For a start, compared to the other "main" factions" they have a shallow pool of options, with fewer captains and upgrades to select from among. Their expansions are just overall lighter, and tend not to include the second (or third!) captain and extra crew and upgrades that tend to come in other faction's expansions.

On top of that they tend to skew harder towards support and escort ships or bigger dreadnoughts, with no real middle-of-the-road options for ships of the line, and only one of their 3 large ships is an all around solid contender.

Their arguably biggest advantages, 2+ agility with cloak and sensor echo, is obviated by Borg's 360 arcs and the ease of now fielding a ship that can toss 6-8 attack dice every round with rerolls and/or conversions from their primary weapon.

I don't think it's quite as dire as some folk, but I can see where they're coming from.
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Larry DeStefano
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SteRT wrote:
I was just reading another thread and I saw a recurrence of the "Wizkids hates Romulans" opinion.

Can someone please explain to me why they feel Romulans are getting the short end of the stick as I really don't see it.

Obviously this will only apply to faction-pure builds as if people are free to mix cards from all factions then you just take whatever cards are appropriate regardless of faction.


I like the romulans always did even when I watched TOS... I heard in Dominion war OP they did good pretty early on...My guess is since they are not tops in any one catagory, Captains, P.A. on their ships, speed, cloaking. There either on par or sub par compared to other groups. Maybe thats why? Be interesting to hear from the other players. I would say at least for thematic reasons they should be the best in cloaking...How to do that, dont know, maybe free cloaking...free echo...an extra die for Romulans when they cloak...just some ideas spitballing.

 
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Xander Fulton
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You need to ask?





...but, yeah, aside from the whole 'so many similar abilities to other factions, just derpier or more expensive', there is...

PanicAtTheSisko wrote:
For a start, compared to the other "main" factions" they have a shallow pool of options, with fewer captains and upgrades to select from among. Their expansions are just overall lighter, and tend not to include the second (or third!) captain and extra crew and upgrades that tend to come in other faction's expansions.

On top of that they tend to skew harder towards support and escort ships or bigger dreadnoughts, with no real middle-of-the-road options for ships of the line, and only one of their 3 large ships is an all around solid contender.

Their arguably biggest advantages, 2+ agility with cloak and sensor echo, is obviated by Borg's 360 arcs and the ease of now fielding a ship that can toss 6-8 attack dice every round with rerolls and/or conversions from their primary weapon.


...all that. Obviously, the Federation has the MOST options, but even compared to the Klingons and Dominion, the Romulans are trailing FAR behind in number of available captains and upgrades.
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SteRT wrote:
Obviously this will only apply to faction-pure builds as if people are free to mix cards from all factions then you just take whatever cards are appropriate regardless of faction.


More and more, there is a movement by a vocal bunch to move to faction pure. (Not likely to happen, as they keep releasing new factions with one or two ships.)

Romulans started out as the 'High Defense / High maneuverability' fleet. But nowadays, the ONE extra defense die doesn't matter much in a lot of builds.

The Haarkona(?) release they just announced and the Scimitar might even things a bit. Super cloak might get them back to where some people think they need to be.

 
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Yeah if the Scimitar, even just named, gets "Super Cloak" that could put them back on the map in a big way.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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The Klingons get an extra attack die for there ships in general than what you would expect.

The Romulans generally get less attack and make up for it with higher hull and defense values. The problem is that extra defense just doesn't prove to be worth as much most of the time, especially after wave 4 was released.

The romulans ships' native attack values are:

4 Valdore
3 d'deridex
2 BoP ToS/Ent
1 Scout
1 Science

There isn't really a good mid range hitter and the Valdore class is underpowered compared to its neighbors.

The named D'D should have been a 5/2/7/3 ship at 34 points and the named Valdore should have been 4/2/5/3 for 28 points to spread them around just a bit. At this spread, both ships would see use, but at a patsy 3 attack, the D'D is just a bust as a ship IMO. Hopefully the Hakona has a tech that adds to the stats of the d'd and adds a tech slot, giving the ship some boost in attack power.

The Romulans used to be good at the run and sensor echo out of arc concept, but the bor 360 arc has made this obsolete.

The cloaked mines used to be killer, but so was cloaking. As cloaking as faded and more scan equipped dreadnaughts have taken the galaxy, their usefulness has diminished.

The Romulans have a solid stable of in-faction captains, however they lack an 'elite' captain that the other big factions have.

Another issue the Romulans have is options. They have had less cards in their expansions and The Vo expansion was basically pointless. They have some strong cards for certain, but more is always better.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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Letant vs Koloth and Centurion vs Li Nalas crop up every time this is discussed and I agree that on the face of it Romulans seem to be getting a raw deal but you can't consider cards in isolation.

Letant vs Koloth: This is perhaps the hardest for me to argue as I actually agree that Koloth edges out Letant. However, I believe it is a very close thing due to the following:

Given both fleets are cloakers the primary use for these cards is to try prevent the critical hit crippling your ship. Koloth does this as effectively as Letant and has slightly more flexibility plus 1 more CS.

However, when Letant is combined with polarised Hull Plating then the protection against crits becomes much more effective and the synergy with this card which the Klingons have no equivalent of makes the comparison of worth much closer in my opinion.

Centurion vs Li Nalas: The synergies here clearly show why the Centurion is more expensive than Li Nalas.

In the Bajoran faction Li Nalas combines with only 2 crew cards Anara and Day Kannu neither of which are particularly powerful. As a result Li Nalas being able to give one additional use to one of these has limited value.

By contrast the Centurion works with Romulan Pilot, Romulan Officer, Varel and Selok and in addition being generic can work for more than one of these in the same build.

In a Faction pure environment I believe their usefulness has been costed accordingly regardless of the apparent superiority of Li Nalas's text.

In terms of the point regarding pool of cards.

Star Trek has always been a Federation based programme and the Federation always had more ship types appear in the different series so it follows that it would be hard for Wizkids to produce an equal number of ships for other factions.

That said, by the end of Wave 12 next year Romulans will be second in number of ships compared o the other factions and will have 2 more ships than the next nearest faction (Klingons).

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Xander Fulton
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PanicAtTheSisko wrote:
Yeah if the Scimitar, even just named, gets "Super Cloak" that could put them back on the map in a big way.


Problem with the cloak, as noted, is that it's not really enough.

Even throwing 8 dice - with no BS modifiers or re-rolls or anything like that - you are only expected to get 3 useful results. And rolling 8 evade dice is REALLY HARD for Romulans to do.

A Borg base attack of 6 (although it's trivially easy to go higher - make it flagship and close to range 1, now throwing 8 dice) with the native (Tac Drone) re-rolls is going to land 5 hits. IE., wiping out the ship in three shots.
 
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XanderF wrote:
Problem with the cloak, as noted, is that it's not really enough.


On top of the thematic "super-cloak" that the source material suggests for the Scimitar (don't flip to attack/shields don't disable to cloak), some native upgrades that enhance cloaking could help a lot. A tech to convert BS, a crew to re-roll, etc. It would give new life to all of the Romulan ships, and be pretty thematic.
 
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XanderF wrote:
You need to ask?





...but, yeah, aside from the whole 'so many similar abilities to other factions, just derpier or more expensive', there is...

PanicAtTheSisko wrote:
For a start, compared to the other "main" factions" they have a shallow pool of options, with fewer captains and upgrades to select from among. Their expansions are just overall lighter, and tend not to include the second (or third!) captain and extra crew and upgrades that tend to come in other faction's expansions.

On top of that they tend to skew harder towards support and escort ships or bigger dreadnoughts, with no real middle-of-the-road options for ships of the line, and only one of their 3 large ships is an all around solid contender.

Their arguably biggest advantages, 2+ agility with cloak and sensor echo, is obviated by Borg's 360 arcs and the ease of now fielding a ship that can toss 6-8 attack dice every round with rerolls and/or conversions from their primary weapon.


...all that. Obviously, the Federation has the MOST options, but even compared to the Klingons and Dominion, the Romulans are trailing FAR behind in number of available captains and upgrades.


You're card comparisons don't make any sense. So...they have the ability to do a slightly worse version of what it would take 2 other factions can do? Do the Klingons have a card to prevent discard/disable of crew/captain? Do the Bajorans have a way of forcing an opponent to re-roll an attack die in ANY manner?

You're examples are basically saying "OMG, Romulans can draw from the bag of tricks of every other faction, but aren't the best at any of them so they are bad!"

That's not to mention cards like Varel, Romulan Pilot, Cloaked Mines, Tactical Officer, a ship that can fire torps without needing a target lock...

As for the Borg...they pretty much do the same to most other faction's ships. I don't think the Romulans were hit particularly hard. And they've still got Varel to cancel an attack.

They don't need an uber-Scimitar to put them on the map. It may take them over the top, but they hold their own well enough.

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Stephen Thorpe
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jmdt784 wrote:
.........

There isn't really a good mid range hitter and the Valdore class is underpowered compared to its neighbors.


The Romulans still have their heaviest hitter to come out in the Scimitar.

This makes the Valdore the mid hitter in their ships so I'm going to go with it having the right values.


jmdt784 wrote:
.........

The Romulans used to be good at the run and sensor echo out of arc concept, but the borg 360 arc has made this obsolete.


They're still good at this against every other fleet and against the Borg they have some of the best attack negation and damage mitigation cards of any faction.

jmdt784 wrote:
.........

The cloaked mines used to be killer, but so was cloaking. As cloaking as faded and more scan equipped dreadnaughts have taken the galaxy, their usefulness has diminished.



Cloaked mines aren't as powerful in the meta now, I agree, but then they shouldn't be. Didn't we spend weeks with people ranting that they were overpowered and broken?

Romulans already have a card to deal with the multiple Scan Dreadnought. It's one of the one's that everyone said was worthless in the first few months; Artificial Quantum Singularity that allows you to roll full defence dice regardless of Scan.

jmdt784 wrote:
.........

The Romulans have a solid stable of in-faction captains, however they lack an
'elite' captain that the other big factions have..


Romulan Commander isn't an elite captain ?

2 elite talents and can choose to shoot before even a skill 13 captain (Picard, Admiral Kirk and Refit Uhuru).

jmdt784 wrote:
.........

Another issue the Romulans have is options. They have had less cards in their expansions and The Vo expansion was basically pointless. They have some strong cards for certain, but more is always better.


By the end of Wave 12 they'll have 2 more ships than the Klingons and will have the 2nd highest number of expansions.

Oh and the Vo wasn't the biggest expansion but it wasn't pointless.
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Noah Sager
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Don't forget how cloak was just neutered on the upcoming OP. Now one of the Romulans' biggest advantages (high defence while cloaked) is meaningless because they can't use it against the BCT.
 
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RequiemX wrote:
Don't forget how cloak was just neutered on the upcoming OP. Now one of the Romulans' biggest advantages (high defence while cloaked) is meaningless because they can't use it against the BCT.


LOL yeah, I'm not enforcing that in my OPs. This game sometimes... it needs to be saved from itself.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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SteRT wrote:
.........

The Romulans still have their heaviest hitter to come out in the Scimitar.

This makes the Valdore the mid hitter in their ships so I'm going to go with it having the right values.


A 30 point ship is not exactly a mid range ship, It more of a main line attacker. A midranger usually operates in the 22-26 cost range such as the Excelsior, Keldon, K'Vort, etc where you can comfortably run 3 with a few toys.

The Scimitar should be a tactical cube type dreadnaught out of the box in the mid 40's in point with some gnarly upgrades. Way more than just a heavy, it will be the nuclear option.

SteRT wrote:
.........

They're still good at this against every other fleet and against the Borg they have some of the best attack negation and damage mitigation cards of any faction.


Attack negation is nice when you occasionally getting shot at, but 1 interphase generator won't save you from constant superior firepower, especially when they can shoot while you are turning for another pass.

SteRT wrote:
.........

Cloaked mines aren't as powerful in the meta now, I agree, but then they shouldn't be. Didn't we spend weeks with people ranting that they were overpowered and broken?

Romulans already have a card to deal with the multiple Scan Dreadnought. It's one of the one's that everyone said was worthless in the first few months; Artificial Quantum Singularity that allows you to roll full defence dice regardless of Scan.


AQS is never and will never be a good card. Packing cards that only might work is bad business. Using the tech slot for 1 extra defense will nevere be better than interphase or mines.

Mines never were OP. Annoying, yes, but OP, no. Its just taken meta shifts for folk to finally realize this.

SteRT wrote:
.........

Romulan Commander isn't an elite captain ?

2 elite talents and can choose to shoot before even a skill 13 captain (Picard, Admiral Kirk and Refit Uhuru).


Romulan Commander is basically trash. Shooting 1st is nice, but spending an action to do so in the romulan faction means that you'll be loading 4-6 dice at someone without any quality modifiers. Certainly not enough to kill them in one shot. Captains that have to spend actions that don't severely help in killing a ship just aren't very good. 2 talent slots is nice to have, but how many times will you want to give the guy 2 Romulan talents?

SteRT wrote:
.........

By the end of Wave 12 they'll have 2 more ships than the Klingons and will have the 2nd highest number of expansions.

Oh and the Vo wasn't the biggest expansion but it wasn't pointless.


That still doesn't make up for the fact that at the moment, the Romulans are gloriously behind in the other factions in usable cards.

They get 3 more ships, but I only really see 1 of them getting used. The Scimitar will see serious play unless Chris just sucks it up designing it. The drone will be another weak 1-2 attack tiny ship that will add tricks to the pot, but no substantial firepower. The 3rd named D'D will probably see just about as much play and the Khazara and PB&J which is not much due to the 3 primary on a bloody 30 point ship.

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Xander Fulton
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SteRT wrote:
However, when Letant is combined with polarised Hull Plating then the protection against crits becomes much more effective and the synergy with this card which the Klingons have no equivalent of makes the comparison of worth much closer in my opinion.


Any Romulan that takes 'polarized hull plating' over interphase generator or advanced cloaking needs to have their head examined...

SteRT wrote:
Centurion vs Li Nalas: The synergies here clearly show why the Centurion is more expensive than Li Nalas.


Not really, as Goval does the same thing. So the argument that "but the Centurion isn't unique" is moot. I can take Goval AND Li Nalas for the price of a single Centurion. And presuming I'm taking Varel (to have some reason for these guys to be cancelling anything, anyway), I've now got three crew slots filled, and how many ships have that many to BEGIN with?

To top that off - do you honestly believe that Li Nalas and Goval are going to be the last two super-cheap ignore-discard-effect crew we get? WizKids seems to love that mechanic...

SteRT wrote:
By contrast the Centurion works with Romulan Pilot, Romulan Officer, Varel and Selok and in addition being generic can work for more than one of these in the same build.


Uhhh...you do realize the Centurion costs MORE than the Romulan Pilot, right? If having him used multiple times was important to your strategy, why not just take MULTIPLE Romulan Pilot cards?

SteRT wrote:
That said, by the end of Wave 12 next year Romulans will be second in number of ships compared o the other factions and will have 2 more ships than the next nearest faction (Klingons).


We don't actually know that, though. No information on what is coming in the next blind boosters, and as the Klingons are missing a couple obvious 'Enterprise'-era designs, I think it's safe to say they'll be shortly catching up. Not to mention the announcement of the Haakona as the first 'core set' mini to get a retail release all but guarantees we will be getting another Galaxy-class release, and most significantly a retail Vor'cha release (which is hardly needed, as the ship is already one of the absolute best designs in the game).

EDIT: To be clear, nobody is arguing "the Romulans are unplayable junk", which some of the status quo apologists appear to be assuming. They CAN work, and certainly in cross-faction environments, they DO have some powerful cards and good ships. It's a bit frustrating, though, that in faction-pure environments, they are the weakest of the main factions, with the fewest options. Obviously, the Federation are the stars of the shows, nobody will realistically begrudge them their superiority...but, IMHO, Klingons/Romulans/Borg/Dominion should all be represented equally as a second tier, rather than Romulans being a distant last-place and the other three huddled reasonably close together.
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Rob Tsuk
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned firing arcs. That's the real killer for me and the Romulans, who I used to fly all the time. Now I still will fly them when I can use Dorsal Weapon Array on them, but in a ship pure environment that's out.
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Xander Fulton
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rtsuk wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned firing arcs. That's the real killer for me and the Romulans, who I used to fly all the time. Now I still will fly them when I can use Dorsal Weapon Array on them, but in a ship pure environment that's out.


Yeah, Dorsal Weapons Array on the D'deridex class is hilarious. "So...I'm limited to an attack of '3', but in any direction? That's...uhhh...okay, sure."
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Rob Tsuk
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And 4 dice when it's the Khazara coming out of cloak. devil

And no range penalty. devildevil

Dorsal Weapon Array is seriously "unusually effective for its cost".
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Aaron Percival
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As a Romulan player through the Dominion War (saw me to grand prizes at 2 locations), I can safely say I wont be playing them continuously anytime soon. There's quite a few reasons they are so underpowered, but for me the main one is the lack of modification to defence dice.

Romulans get the most defence. Woo...Doesn't help when you roll 2 out of your 7 dice. With the increase in high dice, high quality attacks, the odds just aren't in your favour with cloak dice. We need a way to get those converters in. The DS9 pack crew (name escapes me) is an okay start but who on earth would risk that? She should have allowed re-rolls.

And then there's also the lack of decent attack modifiers. There's one card - Tactical Officer - but that relies on being able to get a target lock.
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Jon Ginever
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XanderF wrote:
You need to ask?





...but, yeah, aside from the whole 'so many similar abilities to other factions, just derpier or more expensive', there is...

PanicAtTheSisko wrote:
For a start, compared to the other "main" factions" they have a shallow pool of options, with fewer captains and upgrades to select from among. Their expansions are just overall lighter, and tend not to include the second (or third!) captain and extra crew and upgrades that tend to come in other faction's expansions.

On top of that they tend to skew harder towards support and escort ships or bigger dreadnoughts, with no real middle-of-the-road options for ships of the line, and only one of their 3 large ships is an all around solid contender.

Their arguably biggest advantages, 2+ agility with cloak and sensor echo, is obviated by Borg's 360 arcs and the ease of now fielding a ship that can toss 6-8 attack dice every round with rerolls and/or conversions from their primary weapon.


...all that. Obviously, the Federation has the MOST options, but even compared to the Klingons and Dominion, the Romulans are trailing FAR behind in number of available captains and upgrades.


We can all play the "let's compare bad cards from faction A to good cards from faction B to prove how hard-done-by faction a is" but its a waste of your time and mine. I love how in one breath you are comparing a Romulan card to a Bajoran card, and then turning round and lamenting Romulans lack of options, because the Bajorans have such a huge pool to choose from...

How many bajoran disable/discard crew currently exist in the game vs the number of romulan crew with the same? How about comparing their abilties as well. Given the existence of Varel I'd say that centurion edges out Li-Nalas no question,

The only thing that really doesn't make sense about the Romulans is why the d'deridex class got lumbered with the rather low 3 attack value, but I'm fairly sure they only did that to balance out the starter set as 4 would have been a much more logical value to go for.

I think folks need to take a step back when moaning about captains, the Klingons only have 4 decent captains (Martok, Gowron, Worf and Koloth), Romulans have the same number (Donatra, Romulan commander, Toreth & Valdore), every faction has terrible cards, even the federation, when was the last time you saw someone use Riker/Maxwell Burk, or Kurn/Gorkon for example.

Its one thing to compare Letant to Koloth, but how about comparing Donatra to Gowron (same cptn skill & same trick without costing an action).

The reality is, at around the 100/120pt mark, Romulans function fine, or at least no worse than any other non-Borg faction adapting to the current meta. As points values climb towards 150-200 its true that only having two ships with more than average survivability does cause some issues for the Romulans.
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Rob Tsuk
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Spiney_Norman wrote:
I think folks need to take a step back when moaning about captains, the Klingons only have 4 decent captains (Martok, Gowron, Worf and Koloth), Romulans have the same number (Donatra, Romulan commander, Toreth & Valdore), every faction has terrible cards, even the federation, when was the last time you saw someone use Riker/Maxwell Burk, or Kurn/Gorkon for example.


I feel like I'm at the perfect range to moan. That said, how do you feel the Romulan skill 8 and 9 captains compare to those of the Feds and Klingons? How do you think the Romulan action-granting captain compares to Dukat?
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aaron2310 wrote:
And then there's also the lack of decent attack modifiers. There's one card - Tactical Officer - but that relies on being able to get a target lock.


Aj'rmr, Romulan Flagship, Gal Gath'Thong with Plasma...


(Totally unrelated, but I just realized that the +2 from Direct Command don't have to be used on the targeted ship. It's still bad, of course, but at least it's competitive with Suder and Preemptive Strike and the other factions' bad booster cards.)
 
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Spiney_Norman wrote:
I think folks need to take a step back when moaning about captains, the Klingons only have 4 decent captains (Martok, Gowron, Worf and Koloth), Romulans have the same number (Donatra, Romulan commander, Toreth & Valdore)


Mathimpairedwhat?

How do you count Valdore as a 'decent' captain and not Nu'Daq? On a typical-ish attack of 4 dice, a +1 modifier (which only applies when out of arc, so NEVER available vs Borg and only some of the time vs other ships) amounts to increasing your results from 2 hits to 2.5 hits. Wow

Nu'Daq (same skill and same cost - oh, except he triggers ALL the time), rolling the same 4 attack dice with the same 'average' results, turns 2 hits into 3 hits. Again, against any target, any time.

And, as noted elsewhere, the Romulan Commander is HILARIOUSLY awful. "Shoot first", but spend your action to do it, so you are firing without any way to modify your attack? And I have to spend FIVE POINTS for that?? AND the ship gets an aux token for its trouble???
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Rob Tsuk
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kobold47 wrote:
aaron2310 wrote:
And then there's also the lack of decent attack modifiers. There's one card - Tactical Officer - but that relies on being able to get a target lock.


Aj'rmr, Romulan Flagship, Gal Gath'Thong with Plasma...



Since the OP said "decent attack modifiers" I too the liberty of fixing your post for you.
 
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