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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: which do you think is worse the borg or the weyoun conditional surrender combo rss

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dario gonzalez
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i rather face a borg fleet and lose to it ten times in a row then fight one player who is useing the weyoun conditional surrender combo. the weyound combo is way more lethal then any borg fleet i have faced or have built.
 
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Ted Kay
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Honestly?

I think both are given too much credit on these forums. Neither is a terrible strategy to use but they're far from infallible. What do I think is worse? The attitude that I can fly my fleet with the same tactics and strategy as I did months ago and not expect my opponents to adapt. The sentiment that if the game shifts, then it is the fault of the system or my opponent if I lose, not that I as the loser could be in error somehow.

Such an approach to a loss on my part would be arrogant.

PS- not trying to come down hard on the OP in particular. I just wish to dissent from the opinion that either is bad and explain why.
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C. E. Freeman
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EmperorZeruel wrote:
i rather face a borg fleet and lose to it ten times in a row then fight one player who is useing the weyoun conditional surrender combo. the weyound combo is way more lethal then any borg fleet i have faced or have built.


Conditional Surrender builds rely on a fragile combo that is easily and cheaply disrupted. The Borg as a general rule of thumb will be more difficult to beat.
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James Patrick
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Tacullu64 wrote:
EmperorZeruel wrote:
i rather face a borg fleet and lose to it ten times in a row then fight one player who is useing the weyoun conditional surrender combo. the weyound combo is way more lethal then any borg fleet i have faced or have built.


Conditional Surrender builds rely on a fragile combo that is easily and cheaply disrupted. The Borg as a general rule of thumb will be more difficult to beat.


Not to mention the fact that I can buy two Borg ships off the wall at the game store for what a single Prize Ship will cost on eBay. I have never even seen the Weyoun/Conditional Surrender combo used. If I did, I might do something drastic like, say, use O'Brien or two ships or something.
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Chris Adams
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The real problem is when people combine the two (I've seen it happen...).
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C. E. Freeman
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ex8404 wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
EmperorZeruel wrote:
i rather face a borg fleet and lose to it ten times in a row then fight one player who is useing the weyoun conditional surrender combo. the weyound combo is way more lethal then any borg fleet i have faced or have built.


Conditional Surrender builds rely on a fragile combo that is easily and cheaply disrupted. The Borg as a general rule of thumb will be more difficult to beat.


Not to mention the fact that I can buy two Borg ships off the wall at the game store for what a single Prize Ship will cost on eBay. I have never even seen the Weyoun/Conditional Surrender combo used. If I did, I might do something drastic like, say, use O'Brien or two ships or something.


I brought a Conditional Surrender build to one of our OP events. Nobody was prepared to face it. I dished out some devastating beatings and disheartening losses on the way to an easy victory. Just the one event was enough for people to figure out how to beat it. I retired it after that OP, but if I had brought that same build to the next couple of events I'm not sure I'd have won a game. It can be pretty nasty when you take people by surprise, but is really easy to disrupt for those prepared to face it.
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Chris Phillips
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Tacullu64 wrote:


I brought a Conditional Surrender build to one of our OP events. Nobody was prepared to face it. I dished out some devastating beatings and disheartening losses on the way to an easy victory. Just the one event was enough for people to figure out how to beat it. I retired it after that OP, but if I had brought that same build to the next couple of events I'm not sure I'd have won a game. It can be pretty nasty when you take people by surprise, but is really easy to disrupt for those prepared to face it.


When I ran a Conditional Surrender build at an OP i easily one the first two battles. The third battle left my second ship got a Warp Core Breach in the second turn followed by it immediately blowing up. Two Ships and DS9 vs my one ship were no match..

I think its karma
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Nova Cat
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Conditional Surrender is more damaging to an environment than the Borg. The Borg are beaten the same way as any fleet is beaten: good ships, solid piloting, etc. Conditional Surrender, on the other hand, is nearly invincible UNLESS your opponent has something that can shut it down, in which case it's weaksauce.

I'd take the Borg any day.

Now… Borg WITH Conditional Surrender/Weyoun… that would be another thing entirely. I'll have to try to fly against that and see how it goes.
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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Novacat wrote:
Conditional Surrender is more damaging to an environment than the Borg. The Borg are beaten the same way as any fleet is beaten: good ships, solid piloting, etc. Conditional Surrender, on the other hand, is nearly invincible UNLESS your opponent has something that can shut it down, in which case it's weaksauce.

I'd take the Borg any day.

Now… Borg WITH Conditional Surrender/Weyoun… that would be another thing entirely. I'll have to try to fly against that and see how it goes.


Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the Weyuon/Conditional Surrender combo only effective against a single attack (I.e. the first attack) in the round? Doesn't it require an action to pull off (re-enabling Weyuon each round)?

I just can't imagine any meta that would fall to pieces over anything that could be so easily and intuitively overcome. It would be the first ship I'd take out. Yes the first attack could be negated but the others would go through as normal and that only until I could cause him to bump a ship of mine. Seriously? I must be missing something. I suppose because I seldom play single or even double ship builds, the thought of one of my multiple attacks being negated seems less than frightening. That isn't intended to sound arrogant or brash. I honestly don't see this as a massive advantage against any fleet running three or more ships. It works against single ship fleets, but I personally don't play those because they are vulnerable to this sort of tomfoolery.

I know beans can give you gas, but that doesn't make me fear them. Yeah, a negation combo has to be overcome, but it ain't like that's impossible or even (in most of the cases I play in) difficult. I face a worse challenge challenge against a cloaked ship with a high agility - all my ships have a hard time landing damage, not just the first one who fires.

Chalk this up, for me at least, as not seeing this combo as anything overpowered. It's a nice trick, but it isn't a problem if you play three ships or more regularly and know how to focus your fire. A build that has that kind of trick in it, usually depends upon it, and once you pull the critical pin out, the whole fleet falls apart.
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Chad Brown
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Conditional Surrender isn't defeated as easily as others claim.

O'Brien is a discard, a cheap one shot with a damning effect. However, you have to time it to occur AFTER the weyoun/surrender ship moves so that it cannot remove the disable token or you can wait till your first attack is cancelled which will reduce your opponents weyoun to 1 skill forcing them to go first. You can pair O'Brien with your own weyoun, but then your point costs are creeping up and you have the exact same skill level as your opponent which might give you initiative and force you to move first ( which defeats the purpose of disabling conditional surrender if they can just remove the disable token ). You could also pair it with other cards that disable like chang and try to stack the disable tokens.

It can be done, but its not as straight forward as others are claiming. Weyoun + O'Brien is cheaper than combos required to defeat it conclusively or gamble on a one shot counter with perfect timing.
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I think they're both bad and unfun to see ad infinitum, and am reluctantly going to take my events to some form of ship pure to mitigate the badness of both.
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Nova Cat
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Danvan wrote:
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the Weyuon/Conditional Surrender combo only effective against a single attack

Correct. That's why it's usually run with as many copies of Shroud as you can fit on the ship (3, in the case of a flagship'ed Keldon). With the Battle Cruiser's release, you can also use Amat'Igan for an additional layer of protection.
 
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They are a bunch of options to break Conditional surrender/Weyoun now. Off the top of my head

1) 2+ ships, 3 is better.
2) Admiral Kirk
3) 0'Brian
4) I am Kohn-Ma
5) Toman'Torax to kill the crew member needed to use Conditional surrender
6) Assimiation Tubules again on the crew member
7) Any type of action denying so they can't clear the disable from Weyoun

Those are without looking at the ways to hurt them out of the combat phase. Once you break their shields a 1 point Klag breaks the combo.

The key is to be sure you have a plan to deal with super combos, I don't fear Conditional surrender/Weyoun much as its a know combo with pretty good counter options it's the combo I didn't see coming that I worry about.
 
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Novacat wrote:
Danvan wrote:
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the Weyuon/Conditional Surrender combo only effective against a single attack

Correct. That's why it's usually run with as many copies of Shroud as you can fit on the ship (3, in the case of a flagship'ed Keldon). With the Battle Cruiser's release, you can also use Amat'Igan for an additional layer of protection.


I don't think that Amat'Igan is really a protection for this. You normally only run it with 1 crew as CS makes you discard all crew.
 
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Justin Hare
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Weyoun/CS is Extremely rough against one ship builds and is fairly potent against two ship builds. The trick to defeating is lies in disablin weyoun before you shoot, or forcing a collision So they can't reenable weyoun, or just throwing that many attacks against it in one turn.

The first and only time I've seen someone run weyouns/CS in an OP not on a Borg cube was when admiral's orders were out and I was running a 4 ship fleet. I wasn't impressed.

Additionally, until the Borg, weyoun/cs was not normally used in one ship builds. So worst case, you blow up the other ship and then get behind weyoun/cs and run time out

Now, the only time I see weyoun/cs or Weyoun/Varel is on a Borg cube. That makes the combo much more potent since they can easily get out of arc, don't worry about collisions (except with other Borg), have a much higher attack, have enough HP that they don't worry about one ship's shots getting through, have feedback pulse to reflect a second attack, etc.

Weyoun/CS is sometimes irritating, not a problem. Borg are irritating and undercosted, but not broken. Cross faction Borg are broken To me. Now, that we have a regional and eventually national tournament, I fully expect to be validated
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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Novacat wrote:
Danvan wrote:
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the Weyuon/Conditional Surrender combo only effective against a single attack

Correct. That's why it's usually run with as many copies of Shroud as you can fit on the ship (3, in the case of a flagship'ed Keldon). With the Battle Cruiser's release, you can also use Amat'Igan for an additional layer of protection.


There is that.

I guess it wouldn't start taking damage till the second round of fire. In such a case as that, I would probably not attack it first, but destroy the other ships and take that one out last. It would bump it up from a very minor hassle to a genuine annoyance.
 
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Eric B.
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My take on Weyoun+CS is that I think it's bad for the game, not because it's too powerful, necessarily, but because it's:
(1) Cheesy and un-thematic
(2) Either an auto-win or crippled by a silver bullet (which is now mandatory for everyone to include, and Borg have the only really good bullet in Ass Tubes)
(3) A majorly Negative Play Experience for new players and casual players



Borg are imbalanced to the point of being what I would considered "broken" (not unbeatable but at a significant inherent advantage), but at least a new/casual player who gets rocked by Borg has the illusion of killing a Sphere/Cube for the win. Which I guess is a better experience than being told they've already lost the game because they didn't hard counter some cheesy combo that involves some obscure exclusive Ferengi card they've never seen and now their opponent's ship is invincible.
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Chris Adams
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Danvan wrote:
Novacat wrote:
Danvan wrote:
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the Weyuon/Conditional Surrender combo only effective against a single attack

Correct. That's why it's usually run with as many copies of Shroud as you can fit on the ship (3, in the case of a flagship'ed Keldon). With the Battle Cruiser's release, you can also use Amat'Igan for an additional layer of protection.


There is that.

I guess it wouldn't start taking damage till the second round of fire. In such a case as that, I would probably not attack it first, but destroy the other ships and take that one out last. It would bump it up from a very minor hassle to a genuine annoyance.


The main thing is that you can use it to make up for a fatal mistake. In the Borg/conditional surrender build I ran against, it negated two 6 damage attacks (actually 7 since they were at range 1) that would have crippled them otherwise. They made a bad move on the joust and the combo kept me from exploiting it. After that turn I was hitting it with dorsal weapons arrays for some light damage, but I couldn't kill it fast enough since it negated those two main attacks.
 
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Andrew Frazier
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Danvan wrote:
I know beans can give you gas, but that doesn't make me fear them.


Best comment I have seen in a long time!

P.S. I do fear beans...blush
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Jason Becker
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It's the out of faction combos that do it for me...granted I like playing them, but I think they can be really rough, especially for a new player.

I have a friend who used to work for Decipher back in the day, and he is big on Negative Play Experiences (NPE). he has said whenever he would demo the game in stores or conventions for the company, he was always aware that the person sitting against him wanted a good experience with the game or won't buy-in.

I think NPEs are a big reason why the stores in my area have all gone to faction and/or fleet pure. They want the game to grow, but don't want new players to show up and get mollywopped by a player using an insane combo that a new player can't counter. As we have very weak casual play in our area, 90% of play comes during OP events. Since the Borg are a bit more balanced during faction pure play, we really don't see much around here.

So from my perspective, the OP combos has drastically changed the meta here, as it's almost 100% faction pure...and faction pure Borg are tough, but can be delt with.
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David Griffin
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Tantive4 wrote:
It's the out of faction combos that do it for me...granted I like playing them, but I think they can be really rough, especially for a new player.

I have a friend who used to work for Decipher back in the day, and he is big on Negative Play Experiences (NPE). he has said whenever he would demo the game in stores or conventions for the company, he was always aware that the person sitting against him wanted a good experience with the game or won't buy-in.

I think NPEs are a big reason why the stores in my area have all gone to faction and/or fleet pure. They want the game to grow, but don't want new players to show up and get mollywopped by a player using an insane combo that a new player can't counter. As we have very weak casual play in our area, 90% of play comes during OP events. Since the Borg are a bit more balanced during faction pure play, we really don't see much around here.

So from my perspective, the OP combos has drastically changed the meta here, as it's almost 100% faction pure...and faction pure Borg are tough, but can be delt with.


To some people we can simplistically think of this as having a good experience if they win. But for many people, winning isn't necessary to have a good experience. But having a fair chance to win is I think necessary.

If the player has nominally the same number of points but their attacks on the enemy are negated and their ships are one shotted by very synergistic card combos, they may never play again.

To some extent this is my SFB experience. The rules got more and more complex until I'd come and play and lose because I couldn't remember the rule on page 356. No-one could really pick up this game unless they had a photographic memory. You want a game where skill and experience are rewarded, but not one where new players get crushed so badly that they immediately look for another game. SFB wasn't like that originally and neither was STAW. I don't think STAW is now but it could go that way.

When I play some games (XWing mostly) and my opponent easily outmaneuvers me, getting better shots all the time, choosing his build well (but not wacky combo well) and just outplaying me, I come away thinking I could get better. If I had played my first game against Weyoun/Conditional surrender, and then played against a romulan mine player and then against the Borg, I might give it up entirely. As it was, I played against the Borg and almost decided competition was pointless.
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Scott Kelly
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I actually had Weyoun/O'Brien/Conditional Surrender on a Borg Sphere for Collective OP1, which led to some noob complaining, then limited card/ship bannings, then me not playing anymore
 
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Chris Adams
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Tantive4 wrote:
It's the out of faction combos that do it for me...granted I like playing them, but I think they can be really rough, especially for a new player.

I have a friend who used to work for Decipher back in the day, and he is big on Negative Play Experiences (NPE). he has said whenever he would demo the game in stores or conventions for the company, he was always aware that the person sitting against him wanted a good experience with the game or won't buy-in.

I think NPEs are a big reason why the stores in my area have all gone to faction and/or fleet pure. They want the game to grow, but don't want new players to show up and get mollywopped by a player using an insane combo that a new player can't counter. As we have very weak casual play in our area, 90% of play comes during OP events. Since the Borg are a bit more balanced during faction pure play, we really don't see much around here.

So from my perspective, the OP combos has drastically changed the meta here, as it's almost 100% faction pure...and faction pure Borg are tough, but can be delt with.


Balancing power versus potential NPEs is a constant struggle. Losing people because the game isn't fun doesn't help anyone. On the other hand, banning/restricting cards because of one degenerate combo pisses off long-time players who get screwed because of a couple people abused it. This is where I think the Tourney organizers need to step in if it becomes an issue. If a specific build is so broken that people are leaving the game because of it, keep people from playing it as a house rule. Wizkids doesn't need to step in and ban stuff if people police their venues.

I used to be a TO for a ccg a number of years ago and all of my players had NPE decks that we would use in casual, non-tournament play, but we never used them in local events because we didn't want to scare off prospective players. We'd play them among ourselves on occasion (someone would inevitably try to challenge them with their own degenerate build), but we had basic decks for day to day play. Most people understood their decks were busted, janky, NPEs and would follow this mindset. If they didn't, then I would get a vote on whether or not we would let it be used. That or my players would just refuse to play against it.

Unfortunately the Borg have danced on the NPE line for reasons everyone is aware of and they lend themselves to abuse very often. Rather than clamor for wizkids to ban them (will never happen) or ban cards like Conditional Surrender, talk to your TO. Come up with a house rule that Borg must be ship pure, conditional surrender must discard itself after use (not sure why 90% of elite talents discard but not that one...), etc. That's far more effective than trying to get wizkids to ban the cards and it still allows for legitimate use (as long as it doesn't become abuse). TOs are far more receptive to a couple of players (ie their op group) than wizkids will be (they're not gonna ban a card because 5% of people have issues with it when the other 95% are fine with it).
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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drscottkelly wrote:
I actually had Weyoun/O'Brien/Conditional Surrender on a Borg Sphere for Collective OP1, which led to some noob complaining, then limited card/ship bannings, then me not playing anymore


Not sure if you're serious or sarcastic...

 
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Scott Kelly
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Danvan wrote:
drscottkelly wrote:
I actually had Weyoun/O'Brien/Conditional Surrender on a Borg Sphere for Collective OP1, which led to some noob complaining, then limited card/ship bannings, then me not playing anymore


Not sure if you're serious or sarcastic...


Dead serious! Ran this list....
Borg Sphere 4270
Weyoun
Miles O'Brien (starter) (for disabling)
2x Transwarp Conduit
Subspace Distortion
Borg Missile
IND KLI FLAGSHIP (scan)
Conditional Surrender
Transwarp Drive

...absolutely nothing illegal

Opponent ran a cookie-cutter Borg Cube with 2x Hull Armor and Captain Picard...but no Ass-Tubes or disable affects.

15 minutes in my opponent started incessant crying. He couldn't catch me (he had no Conduits or Drive) or hit me unless I goaded him into it. I even told him all he had to do was run a disable/discard effect or Ass-Tubes to stop it. After another 30-45 minutes of him crying nonstop (my build, the BCT, the scoring, etc) I calmly asked him to stop. He kept going and I basically told him off. Within a few days, the store's TO announced that they were limiting Borg-only to Faction Pure (when I was the heaviest one cross-factioned with Borg and the build the new player(s) were complaining about (most others were fairly Faction Pure)). Then today the TO got on a SC Facebook group I invited him and others to to tell all the new players how to beat the combo. I'm not going to drive and spend money some place where legal things I do are banned because of crying by new players and then new players are told by the TO exactly how to shut down my build(s).
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