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Subject: Dispare as the game loses fun rss

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Chris Cullen
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I'm a Uk based player with very limited access to OP cards and ships. I've been playing STAW with my friend since August and consider the pair of us to be pretty good players. We play faction pure lists. Early on I took Romulans and he took Klingons; as we enjoyed the game I branched into Dominion and my friend into Fed. Win rates were roughly equal as we enjoyed building 100pt lists to jostle each week.... Until the last wave... 2 ships in particular are sapping the fun.

Voyager and the Sphere.

My problems seem to be that voyager is nigh unstoppable. A combination of flagship (free battle stations), Picard (scan), cheat death, voyager, Spock, scotty, sulu, Chekhov and Paris is near unstoppable. A base attack of 5 upped to 7 (8 at range 1) that flys in last (so out of range of gankers for the first pass) that hits with battle stations (scan and Spock) reduces your agility (scan) regularly does 6 damage (smaller ships like the jem'adar attack ship just vanish.... As do Keldons etc).... For defence it's got 6 shields and 4 hull, 3 agility dice plus 2 from Sulu and a battle stations (stops 3-4 per shot) ... And a shield repair after the first pass...

Speaking of which, after the first pass I'm finding the ship or two I have remaining are struggling to get into a fire arc or are dorsal weaponing for 3, whilst voyager is chucking 6 (scotty) or 7 (range 1) at 360 almost regardless of manouver....

Aux power doesn't even hurt cause of chek an no red turns mean tha voyager can almost do anything she likes.... Hour long games are reduced to 20-30 minutes

The only list I've come up with that can beat this monstrosity is an ass tubing sphere with fighters.... Which wins fairly easily...

To be fair to my friend it's a fantastic combo of cards, the problem is that these two ships negate all the fun we used to have.... Neither really care what move you make.... Neither really care if your shot at.... Both throw stupid amounts of attack dice that just remove ships regardless of what cards are on them....

Rant over

One depressed STAW player

 
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Larry DeStefano
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Altashheth wrote:
I'm a Uk based player with very limited access to OP cards and ships. I've been playing STAW with my friend since August and consider the pair of us to be pretty good players. We play faction pure lists. Early on I took Romulans and he took Klingons; as we enjoyed the game I branched into Dominion and my friend into Fed. Win rates were roughly equal as we enjoyed building 100pt lists to jostle each week.... Until the last wave... 2 ships in particular are sapping the fun.

Voyager and the Sphere.

My problems seem to be that voyager is nigh unstoppable. A combination of flagship (free battle stations), Picard (scan), cheat death, voyager, Spock, scotty, sulu, Chekhov and Paris is near unstoppable. A base attack of 5 upped to 7 (8 at range 1) that flys in last (so out of range of gankers for the first pass) that hits with battle stations (scan and Spock) reduces your agility (scan) regularly does 6 damage (smaller ships like the jem'adar attack ship just vanish.... As do Keldons etc).... For defence it's got 6 shields and 4 hull, 3 agility dice plus 2 from Sulu and a battle stations (stops 3-4 per shot) ... And a shield repair after the first pass...

Speaking of which, after the first pass I'm finding the ship or two I have remaining are struggling to get into a fire arc or are dorsal weaponing for 3, whilst voyager is chucking 6 (scotty) or 7 (range 1) at 360 almost regardless of manouver....

Aux power doesn't even hurt cause of chek an no red turns mean tha voyager can almost do anything she likes.... Hour long games are reduced to 20-30 minutes

The only list I've come up with that can beat this monstrosity is an ass tubing sphere with fighters.... Which wins fairly easily...

To be fair to my friend it's a fantastic combo of cards, the problem is that these two ships negate all the fun we used to have.... Neither really care what move you make.... Neither really care if your shot at.... Both throw stupid amounts of attack dice that just remove ships regardless of what cards are on them....

Rant over

One depressed STAW player



I get your point, getting a little tired of the high attacks 6+ with a 90% hit rate. Cant use the small stuff anymore except for fighters and small Romulan ships, with low attacks on them. I feel there has been a power creep.

But heh for house rules just ban those ships its only you and friends.
I have done scn were no ships ove a certain setpoint allowed, they are fun. Or and a handicapper...if you use voyager/borg your oppenet gets any extra number of points...just some ideas for you. Your fellow STAW player from across the pond.
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Will Sanchez
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inb4 "Well I beat Borg all the time they're no big deal"

I feel your pain bro.
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John Carpenter
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Altashheth wrote:
I'm a Uk based player with very limited access to OP cards and ships. I've been playing STAW with my friend since August and consider the pair of us to be pretty good players. We play faction pure lists. Early on I took Romulans and he took Klingons; as we enjoyed the game I branched into Dominion and my friend into Fed. Win rates were roughly equal as we enjoyed building 100pt lists to jostle each week.... Until the last wave... 2 ships in particular are sapping the fun.

Voyager and the Sphere.

My problems seem to be that voyager is nigh unstoppable. A combination of flagship (free battle stations), Picard (scan), cheat death, voyager, Spock, scotty, sulu, Chekhov and Paris is near unstoppable. A base attack of 5 upped to 7 (8 at range 1) that flys in last (so out of range of gankers for the first pass) that hits with battle stations (scan and Spock) reduces your agility (scan) regularly does 6 damage (smaller ships like the jem'adar attack ship just vanish.... As do Keldons etc).... For defence it's got 6 shields and 4 hull, 3 agility dice plus 2 from Sulu and a battle stations (stops 3-4 per shot) ... And a shield repair after the first pass...

Speaking of which, after the first pass I'm finding the ship or two I have remaining are struggling to get into a fire arc or are dorsal weaponing for 3, whilst voyager is chucking 6 (scotty) or 7 (range 1) at 360 almost regardless of manouver....

Aux power doesn't even hurt cause of chek an no red turns mean tha voyager can almost do anything she likes.... Hour long games are reduced to 20-30 minutes

The only list I've come up with that can beat this monstrosity is an ass tubing sphere with fighters.... Which wins fairly easily...

To be fair to my friend it's a fantastic combo of cards, the problem is that these two ships negate all the fun we used to have.... Neither really care what move you make.... Neither really care if your shot at.... Both throw stupid amounts of attack dice that just remove ships regardless of what cards are on them....

Rant over

One depressed STAW player



My quick answer is always to get rid of Flagships. There's a reason, when they're allowed, why they almost always pop up on a non-fighter list.

Let's say you don't want to do that, though.

You're talking about 61 points on one ship, which says to me that he's not running more than 2 ships and the second ship is pretty vanilla.

The first thing everyone must always internalize is that some maximized builds (like this) are very strong against generic builds or other styles of builds, but are extremely weak against certain others. It is NOT a sign of defeat when you can't make a certain jack-of-all-trades fleet win against a maximized Voyager fleet, it just means that if someone is going to put 61 points on one ship you're going to have to counter.

A sample counter is the standard klingon vorcha/dominion keldon fleet (three ships, 5 attack dice each, each can survive one volley from the Voyager). Force bumps and practically everything about his build collapses because its weakness is that everything good about it requires an action.

Get behind it with just one Flip-3 of a Vorcha or Valdore and suddenly things aren't as awesome possum.

Crew killers are certainly his bane too, Jem'Hadar or Superior Intellect/PSF would not make his day.

Weyoun/Varel stops him cold. What's he going to do if Voyager's firing just doesn't work?

Is he going to be hard to kill? Most ships with 61 points are. You just have to remember that when someone adjusts their strategy to a changing meta, you must do so as well.
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Jason Jackowski
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I agree on the Weyoun/Varel. Just get a Reinforcement Sideboard and stick them there a few times. That should make your friend change their strategy.

Another trick I like is a Klingon ship with a Tech slot and two Crew slots (however you manage that, named ships, flagships, etc). Put the Projected Stasis Field, Klingon Boarding Party, and original McCoy on it. Put a low skill captain on there too. Advance slowy and when the timing is right you will be able to move first, take down Voyager's shields, and disable all their upgrades in one fell swoop.
 
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Chris Cullen
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Wear thinking of going missions only with STAW, which is probably the way forward.

Getting rid of flagships/resources could sort voyager out but doesn't touch the sphere.

Both those standard lists you mentioned do diddly squat against this build... The vorchas/keldons/Valadore's are getting shot first and can't take the alpha strike, voyager is averaging 6 hits, an evading vorchas can take 6 hits.... It may survive with a hull point or two assuming no crippling crits but then it's firing back with 5.... 5 dice with 50% chance giving 2-3 hits vs voyagers 5 defence with 5/8ths chance of an evade.... If you get a hit or 2 per ship your knocking down a couple of shields.... If you don't take the evade and power up drex/target lock the voyager kills a ship.

Force bumps..... You've got to guess where voyager will be, when your 2 range rulers away and voyager can move up to 6.....

Behind doesn't work, it's still chucking 4-7 attack dice at 360.... Admittedly at upto range 2 so you're playing a move guessing game after it's passed you.... If you red flip you're taking no actions and that's where the evade dice at 5/8th snag you and no evade means those 4-7 attack dice are getting through...

Crew killers (gankers) can help but I move first and can't get in range to use my action to kill a crew before voyager moves forward and kills the ship with the ganker.... Or are you proposing I spend 60 odd points on defensive upgrades just to get a ganker in range?

Weyoun is Dominion... Varel is Romulan... Cross faction, although that might be the way to go.... Still that support ship can shoot, a constitution with jane way and dimitr could still hurt weyouns ship...

Like I say, despair, it's not a changing meta... It's under costed (free) abilities like 360 shooting and forgiving (also free) movement dials that make for game breaking ships.

Why are voyager and the sphere so much better than similar stated ships?
Bio ship, battleship, flagship keldon.... None of them can move very well and have fire arcs.

What's killed off cloak? Silly numbers of attack dice that hit at 75-80% odds

 
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Chris Cullen
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csimian wrote:
I agree on the Weyoun/Varel. Just get a Reinforcement Sideboard and stick them there a few times. That should make your friend change their strategy.

Another trick I like is a Klingon ship with a Tech slot and two Crew slots (however you manage that, named ships, flagships, etc). Put the Projected Stasis Field, Klingon Boarding Party, and original McCoy on it. Put a low skill captain on there too. Advance slowy and when the timing is right you will be able to move first, take down Voyager's shields, and disable all their upgrades in one fell swoop.


Faction pure

Moving first so not in range of stasis/boarding party before ship is lost/crippled

I've tried a pure Klingon list with stasis and boarding party, getting them to hit before your ships are dead is more luck than judgement
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John Carpenter
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Altashheth wrote:
Wear thinking of going missions only with STAW, which is probably the way forward.

Getting rid of flagships/resources could sort voyager out but doesn't touch the sphere.

Both those standard lists you mentioned do diddly squat against this build... The vorchas/keldons/Valadore's are getting shot first and can't take the alpha strike, voyager is averaging 6 hits, an evading vorchas can take 6 hits.... It may survive with a hull point or two assuming no crippling crits but then it's firing back with 5.... 5 dice with 50% chance giving 2-3 hits vs voyagers 5 defence with 5/8ths chance of an evade.... If you get a hit or 2 per ship your knocking down a couple of shields.... If you don't take the evade and power up drex/target lock the voyager kills a ship.

Force bumps..... You've got to guess where voyager will be, when your 2 range rulers away and voyager can move up to 6.....

Behind doesn't work, it's still chucking 4-7 attack dice at 360.... Admittedly at upto range 2 so you're playing a move guessing game after it's passed you.... If you red flip you're taking no actions and that's where the evade dice at 5/8th snag you and no evade means those 4-7 attack dice are getting through...

Crew killers (gankers) can help but I move first and can't get in range to use my action to kill a crew before voyager moves forward and kills the ship with the ganker.... Or are you proposing I spend 60 odd points on defensive upgrades just to get a ganker in range?

Weyoun is Dominion... Varel is Romulan... Cross faction, although that might be the way to go.... Still that support ship can shoot, a constitution with jane way and dimitr could still hurt weyouns ship...

Like I say, despair, it's not a changing meta... It's under costed (free) abilities like 360 shooting and forgiving (also free) movement dials that make for game breaking ships.

Why are voyager and the sphere so much better than similar stated ships?
Bio ship, battleship, flagship keldon.... None of them can move very well and have fire arcs.

What's killed off cloak? Silly numbers of attack dice that hit at 75-80% odds



You seem pretty negative and focusing on worst case scenarios.

I also can say for certain that the only way Voyager is averaging 6 hits is if he's using Scotty (2 less shields to get through to the juicy juicy hull) which means he's not using Sulu (which means only 4 defense dice so....1-2 evade on average?) which means that he is unlikely to kill one of your three Vorchas before flinging 15 TL converted dice right back at him. The most he can do, if he's lucky, is kill one of Vorchas with the Janeway Constitution, which be enough to kill one Vorcha if he rolls zero blanks on Voyager (statistically possible but unlikely), and rolls well with Valtane and no evade on the Vorcha. Otherwise he's rolling 4 converted dice on voyager and 3 converted dice on Enterprise, possible to kill a Vorcha in one turn, but not something I'd bet money on. Even still, there's two converted Vorchas left to attack him back, enough to imperil Enterprise....and that's without going into any of the various likely upgrades you'd have like Gowron or Martok increasing conversion (don't N'Garen or Drex though, waste of points when TL is free).

He seems to have thoroughly defeated you, which is sad. But he has not defeated the Klingons.
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Altashheth wrote:
I'm a Uk based player with very limited access to OP cards and ships. I've been playing STAW with my friend since August and consider the pair of us to be pretty good players. We play faction pure lists. Early on I took Romulans and he took Klingons; as we enjoyed the game I branched into Dominion and my friend into Fed. Win rates were roughly equal as we enjoyed building 100pt lists to jostle each week.... Until the last wave... 2 ships in particular are sapping the fun.

Voyager and the Sphere.

My problems seem to be that voyager is nigh unstoppable. A combination of flagship (free battle stations), Picard (scan), cheat death, voyager, Spock, scotty, sulu, Chekhov and Paris is near unstoppable. A base attack of 5 upped to 7 (8 at range 1) that flys in last (so out of range of gankers for the first pass) that hits with battle stations (scan and Spock) reduces your agility (scan) regularly does 6 damage (smaller ships like the jem'adar attack ship just vanish.... As do Keldons etc).... For defence it's got 6 shields and 4 hull, 3 agility dice plus 2 from Sulu and a battle stations (stops 3-4 per shot) ... And a shield repair after the first pass...

Speaking of which, after the first pass I'm finding the ship or two I have remaining are struggling to get into a fire arc or are dorsal weaponing for 3, whilst voyager is chucking 6 (scotty) or 7 (range 1) at 360 almost regardless of manouver....

Aux power doesn't even hurt cause of chek an no red turns mean tha voyager can almost do anything she likes.... Hour long games are reduced to 20-30 minutes

The only list I've come up with that can beat this monstrosity is an ass tubing sphere with fighters.... Which wins fairly easily...

To be fair to my friend it's a fantastic combo of cards, the problem is that these two ships negate all the fun we used to have.... Neither really care what move you make.... Neither really care if your shot at.... Both throw stupid amounts of attack dice that just remove ships regardless of what cards are on them....

Rant over

One depressed STAW player



Speaking as a Fed player who has had Voyager on the table more than once, Voyager is far from unstoppable. First of all, no Sulu AND Scott (only one ship action) and with so many of your eggs in one basket you are really vulnerable to all kinds of things including projected stasis field (and the borg feedback pulse if you're using transphasics). Also Voyager has a nasty habit of being destroyed when it's armor goes down before it can get its shields up if it's using ablative armor. And it's only one ship, so 3 amped Klingons can destroy it in one round. Even if Cheat Death saves you, you go down promptly afterward.

It's a good ship, don't get me wrong, but not unbeatable. The aux token for 360 fire (which it should have anyway) means Checkov is a must and that costs yet more points. It's a vital part of the Fed arsenal, but just watch Steve Smith on YouTube if you want to see Voyager go down to his Klingons, time after time.

I've felt that sense of helplessness from the Fed side against Klingons and I had Voyager the whole time. Don't despair. Remember, no ship is without its weaknesses. Voyager has limited hull and shields and the Dominion are well situated to throw a lot of dice with the Battleship and Battlecruiser as well as the Cardassian ships. Plus Voyager isn't the most agile ship either. He's better than Momma D but it's still hard to turn around and if he doesn't use Chekov, he can really be crippled trying to maintain fire off arc.
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Roy Stephens
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Generic Breen Battle Cruiser
Weyoun 6
Varel
Energy Dissipator x2

Congrats. Your 49 point ship just took 66pt Voyager's lunch money and left it crying in the shower. With the 51 points you have left, you can build at least one more awesome ship. And since you aren't flying a flagship, you could take fighters or some other resource, like, say, Extra Attack Dice to pretty much easy button the ED attacks.


Everything can be beaten. The challenge is figuring out how while not putting all your eggs in one basket. This ship is an answer for that Voyager. As I said, you still have 51 points left for filling in the gaps.


*edit Since i just noticed you are flying fac-pure...

BBC
Dominion Flagship
Weyoun 8
Gul Dukat Admiral
Captured Intel
Inval Advice
Breen Aide
Energy Dissipator x 2
51sp

Not as bulletproof as my other suggestion, but, with equal captain skill, you fire simultaneously. It will require a bit more skill to play than the bulletproof one. But, it is only 2 pts more expensive, so, you can still whip up some good support craft(S). If you don't care about the flagship bonuses, dump it and you have a 41 point ship and a LOT more build room.

Also: it's "Despair".

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hockeyjedi wrote:
Generic Breen Battle Cruiser
Weyoun 6
Varel
Energy Dissipator x2

Congrats. Your 49 point ship just took 66pt Voyager's lunch money and left it crying in the shower. With the 51 points you have left, you can build at least one more awesome ship. And since you aren't flying a flagship, you could take fighters or some other resource, like, say, Extra Attack Dice to pretty much easy button the ED attacks.


Everything can be beaten. The challenge is figuring out how while not putting all your eggs in one basket. This ship is an answer for that Voyager. As I said, you still have 51 points left for filling in the gaps.


How about filling in gaps with Cloaked Mines? I don't think Voyager would like those so much.
 
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Charles Silbernagel
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I may simply have a different outlook than the original poster. For me, seeing something like the Voyager or Cube starting to dominate like this makes me want to come up with counters to it. However, since you're playing against one other player, your options for inspiration may be limited.

To add some variety to your games, without requiring house rules or bans, I would highly recommend you start playing through the scenarios. A lot of these have very specific narrative and build requirements, and are also good fun.

There's nothing wrong with playing a straight-up game of kill-em-all, but it gets a little stale no matter how many ship options you have between the players. The scenarios are really what (I feel) makes the game 'Trek.'
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Obsidian3d wrote:
I may simply have a different outlook than the original poster. For me, seeing something like the Voyager or Cube starting to dominate like this makes me want to come up with counters to it. However, since you're playing against one other player, your options for inspiration may be limited.


Yup. If you know what your opponent is bringing every time, it makes it easier to build against it.
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hockeyjedi wrote:
Generic Breen Battle Cruiser
Weyoun 6
Varel
Energy Dissipator x2

Congrats. Your 49 point ship just took 66pt Voyager's lunch money and left it crying in the shower. With the 51 points you have left, you can build at least one more awesome ship. And since you aren't flying a flagship, you could take fighters or some other resource, like, say, Extra Attack Dice to pretty much easy button the ED attacks.


Everything can be beaten. The challenge is figuring out how while not putting all your eggs in one basket. This ship is an answer for that Voyager. As I said, you still have 51 points left for filling in the gaps.


*edit Since i just noticed you are flying fac-pure...

BBC
Dominion Flagship
Weyoun 8
Gul Dukat Admiral
Captured Intel
Inval Advice
Breen Aide
Energy Dissipator x 2
51sp

Not as bulletproof as my other suggestion, but, with equal captain skill, you fire simultaneously. It will require a bit more skill to play than the bulletproof one. But, it is only 2 pts more expensive, so, you can still whip up some good support craft(S). If you don't care about the flagship bonuses, dump it and you have a 41 point ship and a LOT more build room.

Also: it's "Despair".



This was tried against me flying Voyager. Energy dissapator depends on low agility for your enemy. Otherwise the three dice will be evaded. Voyager stock isn't bad, but add Sulu and/or Paris (as you might if you are flying a loaded Voyager) and it's very hard to hit with. He tried twice and gave up. Much more effective against Borg (or a plainer version of Voyager).
 
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csimian wrote:
hockeyjedi wrote:
Generic Breen Battle Cruiser
Weyoun 6
Varel
Energy Dissipator x2

Congrats. Your 49 point ship just took 66pt Voyager's lunch money and left it crying in the shower. With the 51 points you have left, you can build at least one more awesome ship. And since you aren't flying a flagship, you could take fighters or some other resource, like, say, Extra Attack Dice to pretty much easy button the ED attacks.


Everything can be beaten. The challenge is figuring out how while not putting all your eggs in one basket. This ship is an answer for that Voyager. As I said, you still have 51 points left for filling in the gaps.


How about filling in gaps with Cloaked Mines? I don't think Voyager would like those so much.


You're right there. Voyager is pretty maneuverable (for a Fed ship which is not saying much) but it's tough to get out of the way of mines. For me it was a Borg sphere deploying mines in the Tholian Web. I hit them twice which would probably have done me in but I managed to take him out with a rear firing transphasic. Mines are VERY powerful against pretty much everyone if played well. Will Sanchez has a State of the Federation podcast where he talks about Romulan Mines in detail. He says they banned them in his venue to keep him from getting shanked on the way to his car.
 
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Power Creep! The game went a turn I didn't expect, its still fun but I saw this way early the primary weapons of certain factions (ehem Klingon) were way too high and too high overall. In turn makes many secondarys pointless and the only plsce to go was up for bigger ships. Their also needs to be an energy mechanic added to the core rules.
 
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Some of the posts back at me aren't helping my mood.... Do you think I've not tried some of these options?

energy dissipater is 3 dice... If you're in range 1 and if your in your forward weapon arc and if voyager doesn't defend.....

I'm flying first, I've got to guess where voyager may end up, position there, take actions that'll up my attack, have voyager move in and desire to either defend for the turn, activate sulu (2 base defence, Paris, flagship, 2 sulu) with a battle stations (flagship free action) and then fire first (5 attack dice I at -1 defence due to scan which also converts battle stations due to Spock).... If I'm still alive and roll well enough to hit and he doesn't dodge I drop his shields......

Tell me that you recognise that this plan takes skill and an awful lot of luck

Turn after voyager leaps over out of my fire arc and if it's 'safe' from return fire activates scotty to 360 6-7 me.... Unless I'm running a cruiser or battleship (as dominion) I'm toast, if I am I'm not firing anything other than a dorsal for the next turn or two....


I guess the best plan is ask to play with out obstacles and line up to joust... That way I can play Klingon and get all 3 in the front arc... Still no stasis field et al on the first turn because I move first and he's not in range until after his move.... I could lure him forward by moving a ship into range...but then I'm sacrificing a ship......

Your right though, best to attack my spelling mistake or attack my 'dispair' cause that's what you do when someone's had enough, you attack them and tell them it's all there fault cause they're not good enough..... Note to self when ever you post anything on a forum there will always be a dick
 
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ryolacap wrote:
Power Creep! The game went a turn I didn't expect, its still fun but I saw this way early the primary weapons of certain factions (ehem Klingon) were way too high and too high overall. In turn makes many secondarys pointless and the only plsce to go was up for bigger ships. Their also needs to be an energy mechanic added to the core rules.


I didn't think the Klingon ships were too bad, they had genuine weaknesses, low defences that could be boosted by action intensive cloaking but no real defensive upgrades and no easy access to battle stations so 50/50 per dice of hitting.....

Fed seemed balanced with a few defensive upgrades (sulu, data) access to odds boosting (battle stations) but lower attacks (3s usually)

I'm just frustrated, I consider myself to be okay, we have had roughly equal win losses, we play 2-3 times a week, since voyager turned up I've lost every game bar 3.... Either I've got bad, my friends suddenly got really good (but loses that skill when voyager isn't taken) or voyagers broken
 
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Borg Missile could be a good card to use against the Voyager. He can't roll defense against that attack. Try to load them down with Aux tokens and then follow up with the primary weapon.
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Are you playing faction pure by general consensus? Pure ships or pure fleets? I know a lot of players are very passionate about faction purity, but the game really wasn't designed around it. I tend to use a combination.

Voyager can be pretty tough to get through sometimes. If your ships and your OP stuff is limited, and I understand that completely, you may just have to keep struggling until you come up with that a-ha moment. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of fun though. How many points are your builds? 100?

Maybe if you listed the ships you own, folks here could give you better advice.

 
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Roy Stephens
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San Jose
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Ok, first off... calm down. I wasn't "attacking you" or telling you it was all your fault. The spell check was meant as a snark, yes, but i wasn't trying to make you feel bad. It was just a joke.

Now...

Was your point in creating this thread just to complain about the game and to find others to commiserate with you, or, were you trying to get advice and find a solution to your problem of not being able to beat your friend's Voyager build that took your lunch money?

If it was the former, then, let us know and those of us who are trying to give advice will seek our fortunes elsewhere and you and those of equal mindset with you can have the thread to yourselves.

If it was the latter (and I suspect it was), then please understand that folks will not only be providing alternate builds, but also, critiquing your play as, in the end, that has a lot to do with performance. I watched a Tac Cube on mixed faction steroids go undefeated for two rounds only to fall to a Sphere/Bioship, that had been beaten by 5 Klingon D7s, that was defeated by the 2 ship Fed fac pure build that went undefeated AND won every capt's battle.

Half of this game is building the fleet. The OTHER half is flying it well. I guarantee if I flew that 2 ship Fed build that won Arena, I would not do nearly as well, because I am not as good of a player.


Back to my suggested ship:

Yeah, Picard has a skill 9, but, so does Weyoun 8 when paired with Admiral Dukat. They will fire simultaneously. You get a free scan from the Dom flagship. Take TL action, then use Inv. Advice. Now you have Voyager w/ 2 less evade dice, you are throwing 3 w/ BS and a re-roll from TL if needed, Breen Aide converts a blank to a hit. Odds are fairly good for 3 hits after all is said and done. Voyager is rolling 6 evade IF he Sulu'ed... which means he only got one ship action from JLP. Lets assume he took BS, as that works for attack or defense. Voyager is down to 4 dice due to your scan. Sulu does give him 1 BS convert to evade. No re-rolls. He could evade all 3 of your hits, but it is unlikely. Now, he will fire back. You have 3 evade. Use Captured Intel. Now you have 1 guaranteed evade, plus another die, so, 4 green dice. He didn't scan you, because he feared the ED and took BS. Call it 5 dice, unless you are lined up in his forward arc (which goes back to the point about player skill having a large part in success at this game). Generally that is going to be 1 or 2 hits. No sweat. Now, your OTHER ship (remember, you have at least 2 good ships here) gets to beat on him too. Chances are, he already used his BS...

Valdore with Advanced Cloaking and your flagship (if you prefer) would be kind of fun. Perma-cloak for 4 extra def dice. Added to the 3 from ship and FS gives you 7. Throw on maybe either a Romulan Pilot or Tac officer. Now, you can slide around with sensor echo staying outside range 2, and outside of forward arc and be a real nightmare to him.

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Chris Cullen
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ex8404 wrote:
Are you playing faction pure by general consensus? Pure ships or pure fleets? I know a lot of players are very passionate about faction purity, but the game really wasn't designed around it. I tend to use a combination.

Voyager can be pretty tough to get through sometimes. If your ships and your OP stuff is limited, and I understand that completely, you may just have to keep struggling until you come up with that a-ha moment. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of fun though. How many points are your builds? 100?

Maybe if you listed the ships you own, folks here could give you better advice.




Yup faction pure by consensus, I'm feeling much better today, just threw a wobbly yesterday

The game is tough and frustrating at times but some of you less hateful guys are correct, that's why we play, and I will crack this nut

Yup 100 points, my ships are:

Romulan
D'deridex
Valdore
Science Vessel
Bird of prey-praetus
Bird of prey-Gal Gath'thong

dominion
4th division Battleship
5th wing patrol ship
Gor portas x2
Hideki class attack squad
Koranak
Kraxon
Rav laerst

I'm very tempted to pick up a second Koranak and the battle cruiser

I've also got species 8472


Thanks to those with helpful comments and advise, apologises for my bad mood.
 
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Larry DeStefano
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Bloomingburg
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Obsidian3d wrote:
I may simply have a different outlook than the original poster. For me, seeing something like the Voyager or Cube starting to dominate like this makes me want to come up with counters to it. However, since you're playing against one other player, your options for inspiration may be limited.

To add some variety to your games, without requiring house rules or bans, I would highly recommend you start playing through the scenarios. A lot of these have very specific narrative and build requirements, and are also good fun.

There's nothing wrong with playing a straight-up game of kill-em-all, but it gets a little stale no matter how many ship options you have between the players. The scenarios are really what (I feel) makes the game 'Trek.'


I agree. OP is not everything...my group has used scn were ship size is limited, faction pure, goals other then ship destruction...Many of the scn that come with the expansions are good as well.
 
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Larry DeStefano
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Bloomingburg
New York
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ryolacap wrote:
Power Creep! The game went a turn I didn't expect, its still fun but I saw this way early the primary weapons of certain factions (ehem Klingon) were way too high and too high overall. In turn makes many secondarys pointless and the only plsce to go was up for bigger ships. Their also needs to be an energy mechanic added to the core rules.


I'm kinda feeling that way as well.
 
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James Patrick
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Altashheth wrote:
Yup 100 points, my ships are:

Romulan
D'deridex
Valdore
Science Vessel
Bird of prey-praetus
Bird of prey-Gal Gath'thong

dominion
4th division Battleship
5th wing patrol ship
Gor portas x2
Hideki class attack squad
Koranak
Kraxon
Rav laerst

I'm very tempted to pick up a second Koranak and the battle cruiser

I've also got species 8472


Thanks to those with helpful comments and advise, apologises for my bad mood.


No problems.

I don't play Dominion, even though I have the Gor Portas, The Battleship, the Patrol ship and the Fighters. Not even sure why I ever bought them if I don't play them. Anyway, can't help you much with the Dominion vs Voyager aspect of it.

Last time I played against Voyager, I just had to use my Valdore like a true Romulan. Lots of sensor echoing, counter attacks and just picking away at it. It worked eventually...

I will admit my first experience facing Voyager was somewhat less than stellar. I rolled in all full of myself and my abilities, so much that I never bothered to look at his cards. Second round, BOOM. Voyager flies in at 6 Straight, drops a Target Lock, battle stations, fires Transphasic Torpedoes with a Secondary Torpedo Launcher follow-up, and my Vor'cha vaporizes.

I learned several lessons that day.
 
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