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Subject: A question to the religious from an atheist. rss

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David Dearlove
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A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.
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Mac Mcleod
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DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Unfortunately, since you have been told about deities like Zeus, Hera, Yahweh, etc. you no longer lack faith. You disbelieve.

Here!

Quote:
The Akan people of Ghana and Ivory Coast believe in a Supreme Being who takes on various names depending upon the region of worship. The deity is referred to as Brekyirihunuade ("almighty"), Nyame "the one who knows and sees everything",[citation needed] Otweidiampon, Okokroko, Onyame, Awurade and Odomankoma.[citation needed] There are no priests that directly serve Brekyirihunuade, as it is an attribute and people believe that they may make direct contact to God (Nyame) via this name.[citation needed]

According Akan mythology, at one time the god interacted with man, but that after being continually struck by the pestle of an old woman pounding fufu, a traditional Akan food, he moved far up into the sky.


Now you can not believe in another god! Collect the whole set.

Thanks for not sharing the secret atheist rituals and link to the atheist religious texts.
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Mike Stiles
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Mac's answer is just about perfect, but here's a good addendum.

Most people don't care how you want to categorize yourself.
 
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David Dearlove
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maxo-texas wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Unfortunately, since you have been told about deities like Zeus, Hera, Yahweh, etc. you no longer lack faith. You disbelieve.

Here!

Quote:
The Akan people of Ghana and Ivory Coast believe in a Supreme Being who takes on various names depending upon the region of worship. The deity is referred to as Brekyirihunuade ("almighty"), Nyame "the one who knows and sees everything",[citation needed] Otweidiampon, Okokroko, Onyame, Awurade and Odomankoma.[citation needed] There are no priests that directly serve Brekyirihunuade, as it is an attribute and people believe that they may make direct contact to God (Nyame) via this name.[citation needed]

According Akan mythology, at one time the god interacted with man, but that after being continually struck by the pestle of an old woman pounding fufu, a traditional Akan food, he moved far up into the sky.


Now you can not believe in another god! Collect the whole set.

Thanks for not sharing the secret atheist rituals and link to the atheist religious texts.

Actually that's rather a cool god. Perhaps we should have a god of the day? Not sure about the disbelief, I was brought up by a religious mother (and a father who just didn't talk religion) and went to church until I acquired enough free will to stop. But I was mostly bored and I can't recall ever believing in it. (I said I did early on as adults got upset otherwise and I resent having been forced to lie but it was mainly many hours of my life I could have done something useful in. So I don't actively disbelieve, I just don't distinguish religion from any other fantasy.
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Mac Mcleod
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DavidDearlove wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Unfortunately, since you have been told about deities like Zeus, Hera, Yahweh, etc. you no longer lack faith. You disbelieve.

Here!

Quote:
The Akan people of Ghana and Ivory Coast believe in a Supreme Being who takes on various names depending upon the region of worship. The deity is referred to as Brekyirihunuade ("almighty"), Nyame "the one who knows and sees everything",[citation needed] Otweidiampon, Okokroko, Onyame, Awurade and Odomankoma.[citation needed] There are no priests that directly serve Brekyirihunuade, as it is an attribute and people believe that they may make direct contact to God (Nyame) via this name.[citation needed]

According Akan mythology, at one time the god interacted with man, but that after being continually struck by the pestle of an old woman pounding fufu, a traditional Akan food, he moved far up into the sky.


Now you can not believe in another god! Collect the whole set.

Thanks for not sharing the secret atheist rituals and link to the atheist religious texts.

Actually that's rather a cool god. Perhaps we should have a god of the day? Not sure about the disbelief, I was brought up by a religious mother (and a father who just didn't talk religion) and went to church until I acquired enough free will to stop. But I was mostly bored and I can't recall ever believing in it. (I said I did early on as adults got upset otherwise and I resent having been forced to lie but it was mainly many hours of my life I could have done something useful in. So I don't actively disbelieve, I just don't distinguish religion from any other fantasy.


To me, it's more of a grammar or philosophical nit.

I lack belief in dozens of major deities around the planet. I've never heard of them.

Once I'm told something- even if it is stupid, I have to make a decision to believe it or not. At some level, there is a red pill.

For example, I don't believe in last fridayism. I mean come on- it's so stupid. It's clear last mondayism is more divinely correct because the world is about suffering and hope. We may have the illusion of a weekend of fun and partying but reality is that the world was created on a work day.
 
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David Dearlove
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windsagio wrote:
Mac's answer is just about perfect, but here's a good addendum.

Most people don't care how you want to categorize yourself.

I wish that was true but for example in the UK we have a state religion and up to 1/3 of state schools are religious. These are often perceived as being better and practice various forms of discrimination. They care about how people categorise themselves.
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Jarek Szczepanik
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An interesting question. Maybe it is us, atheists who are to blame as well? There are not too many campaigns on what atheism really is. Most people are religious, so they extrapolate that every human being has a 'religion slot' in their mind, be it any religion or atheism. Maybe we should show them it works different?
 
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Mac Mcleod
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KissaTaikuri wrote:
Unfortunately, just as the religious believe in nonsensical stories without any verifiable evidence, they also believe that atheism is a religion. They don't need facts to believe, so why shouldn't they believe that a lack of belief is a belief?

It's a sad state of affairs in our modern world today and makes me ashamed of my fellow man for being so emotionally unintelligent. The most egregious of believers are those who are intellectually intelligent and can't override the, obviously, false feelings and stories.

The religious should have to put up or shut up about their gods/beliefs. Verifiable evidence would turn every atheist that I know into a believer but faith always has an out in the form of we can't prove that their belief is wrong. I can't prove that there isn't an invisible orange cat who watches over my life and guides and nurtures me but evidence be damned cause I've got faith and stuffs and you must respect my ridiculous belief. shake


It's really not that simple. Our brain "weights" facts.

Something an atheist weights as being a "10" fact is often weighted at "1" by a religious person. Likewise- events that atheists may consider random noise (i.e. weight= "1") are considered significant and highly important to religious people (weight "10").

Actual pure logic doesn't appear to exist outside of mathematics. People with brain damage that removes emotion from logic, are unable to reason effectively.
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The OP in a nutshell: another atheist striving to be discriminated against.

Here, random British guy, read this nice little blurb from a happiness web site and feel the love...

Quote:
So lets get back to the expression "What you resist persists." The Law of Attraction states that like attracts like.

Through resisting our experiences, we draw more of the same to ourselves. Through focusing on what you don't want, you attract more of it.

A far better (and infinitely more peaceful) approach is to consciously offer no resistance.

Simply acknowledge what is there, allow it to be there and know there is nothing "wrong" with it.


Be aware of any commentary about the experience. There is no need to fix or change anything. Wanting to fix it will create more of it. Simply seeing it is enough. Then see what happens!

If it is true that what you resist persists, the opposite is equally true... what you embrace dissolves.
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Christopher Dearlove
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DWTripp wrote:
read this nice little blurb from a happiness web site and feel the love...

Quote:
So lets get back to the expression "What you resist persists." The Law of Attraction states that like attracts like.

Through resisting our experiences, we draw more of the same to ourselves. Through focusing on what you don't want, you attract more of it.

A far better (and infinitely more peaceful) approach is to consciously offer no resistance.

Simply acknowledge what is there, allow it to be there and know there is nothing "wrong" with it.


Be aware of any commentary about the experience. There is no need to fix or change anything. Wanting to fix it will create more of it. Simply seeing it is enough. Then see what happens!

If it is true that what you resist persists, the opposite is equally true... what you embrace dissolves.


I read a bunch of meaningless waffle. One of its few specific comments is "There is no need to fix or change anything." which is so definitely false as to render the rest not worth anything.

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David Dearlove
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DWTripp wrote:
The OP in a nutshell: another atheist striving to be discriminated against.

I don't feel very discriminated against in the scale of things. The major issue I had was that the state was paying for schools that my kids were ineligible to go to. What annoys me is the fact that Christians in the UK are complaining about being discriminated against.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
The OP in a nutshell: another atheist striving to be discriminated against.

I don't feel very discriminated against in the scale of things. The major issue I had was that the state was paying for schools that my kids were ineligible to go to. What annoys me is the fact that Christians in the UK are complaining about being discriminated against.


It's the same in many places. In Poland, the Catholic Church has a lot of power (it can even influence politicians) and we still hear about the Catholicism being discriminated, excluded from the public space (because someone said no to the cross in a public institution) and we even have a parliamentary commission to resist atheisation of Poland. Similarly to UK, everything what has something to do with (a major) religion is automatically classified as a public benefit organizations and gets assistance from the state.
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DWTripp wrote:
The OP in a nutshell: another atheist striving to be discriminated against.

Here, random British guy, read this nice little blurb from a happiness web site and feel the love...

Quote:
So lets get back to the expression "What you resist persists." The Law of Attraction states that like attracts like.

Through resisting our experiences, we draw more of the same to ourselves. Through focusing on what you don't want, you attract more of it.

A far better (and infinitely more peaceful) approach is to consciously offer no resistance.

Simply acknowledge what is there, allow it to be there and know there is nothing "wrong" with it.


Be aware of any commentary about the experience. There is no need to fix or change anything. Wanting to fix it will create more of it. Simply seeing it is enough. Then see what happens!

If it is true that what you resist persists, the opposite is equally true... what you embrace dissolves.


Zen, or Taoist? I don't have the background to distinguish the two.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Unfortunately, since you have been told about deities like Zeus, Hera, Yahweh, etc. you no longer lack faith. You disbelieve.

Here!

Quote:
The Akan people of Ghana and Ivory Coast believe in a Supreme Being who takes on various names depending upon the region of worship. The deity is referred to as Brekyirihunuade ("almighty"), Nyame "the one who knows and sees everything",[citation needed] Otweidiampon, Okokroko, Onyame, Awurade and Odomankoma.[citation needed] There are no priests that directly serve Brekyirihunuade, as it is an attribute and people believe that they may make direct contact to God (Nyame) via this name.[citation needed]

According Akan mythology, at one time the god interacted with man, but that after being continually struck by the pestle of an old woman pounding fufu, a traditional Akan food, he moved far up into the sky.


Now you can not believe in another god! Collect the whole set.

Thanks for not sharing the secret atheist rituals and link to the atheist religious texts.

Actually that's rather a cool god. Perhaps we should have a god of the day? Not sure about the disbelief, I was brought up by a religious mother (and a father who just didn't talk religion) and went to church until I acquired enough free will to stop. But I was mostly bored and I can't recall ever believing in it. (I said I did early on as adults got upset otherwise and I resent having been forced to lie but it was mainly many hours of my life I could have done something useful in. So I don't actively disbelieve, I just don't distinguish religion from any other fantasy.


To me, it's more of a grammar or philosophical nit.

I lack belief in dozens of major deities around the planet. I've never heard of them.

Once I'm told something- even if it is stupid, I have to make a decision to believe it or not. At some level, there is a red pill.

For example, I don't believe in last fridayism. I mean come on- it's so stupid. It's clear last mondayism is more divinely correct because the world is about suffering and hope. We may have the illusion of a weekend of fun and partying but reality is that the world was created on a work day.
Not really, I have been told about you (hell I am communicating with you) but I have no idea if Mac Mcleod is a real person, or someone pretending to be Mac Mcleod from Texas. Thus I neither believe nor disbelieve in Mac Mcleod from Texas, I have no opinion on the matter. I act as if you are real, but have no reason to think you are nay more real then any other fake online persona or sock puppet (the account is real, it is being used by a real person, but the person you claim to be may not be).
 
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KissaTaikuri wrote:
Unfortunately, just as the religious believe in nonsensical stories without any verifiable evidence, they also believe that atheism is a religion. They don't need facts to believe, so why shouldn't they believe that a lack of belief is a belief?

It's a sad state of affairs in our modern world today and makes me ashamed of my fellow man for being so emotionally unintelligent. The most egregious of believers are those who are intellectually intelligent and can't override the, obviously, false feelings and stories.

The religious should have to put up or shut up about their gods/beliefs. Verifiable evidence would turn every atheist that I know into a believer but faith always has an out in the form of we can't prove that their belief is wrong. I can't prove that there isn't an invisible orange cat who watches over my life and guides and nurtures me but evidence be damned cause I've got faith and stuffs and you must respect my ridiculous belief. :shake:
Yet when atheism claims religious rights Christians argue it's not a religion.
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jeremy cobert
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DavidDearlove wrote:
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters.

It really is not. I have no substitute for religion.


One of the great things about atheism should be that you are above the squabbles of religion. And yet not a day goes by here on RSP that some pseudo-intellectual-nutty-militant atheist has to point out their superiority and rattle the religious cage.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead.


This. I don't really mind knowing that I'm disqualified from most national political office simply because I'm an atheist. I probably should mind, but I really don't. But every time I hear that stupid song saying, "There's a God-shaped hole in all of us," I want to smack someone.
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jeremycobert wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters.

It really is not. I have no substitute for religion.


One of the great things about atheism should be that you are above the squabbles of religion. And yet not a day goes by here on RSP that some pseudo-intellectual-nutty-militant atheist has to point out their superiority and rattle the religious cage.
Why should they be above squabbles about religion? Religion wants to be able to affect peoples lives, thus people have a right to question it.
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Koldfoot wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Where does life come from?
A chemical process.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Where does life come from?


I don't know.
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Koldfoot wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Where does life come from?
A chemical process.


What chemical process?


Check some biology/biochemistry handbook, but to make the long story short:

a) organic compounds form fro inorganic ones on Earth (what was proved possible)
b) one of them is the first replicator (RNA). Thanks to the physical properties of early Earth, it 'learns' how to replicate (it simply forms a single- or double-stranded form depending on the temperature during day or night)
c) different RNAs have different reproductive success - the Darwinian algorithm starts
d) RNAs compete for survival - those with more successful reproduction strategies form more offspring
e) RNA is substituted by DNA as replicator, DNA 'learns' to depend on aminoacids and proteins
f) somewhere between b) and d) first cells evolve
g) the rest of the stiory is pure biology
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"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
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Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
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Did someone say atheism is a religion in the other thread? I certainly didn't. What I asserted is that atheists are unable to escape having faith and as a result continue to be religious people.

The fact that you're trying to make an argument here proves my point. Your ability to argue requires you to use the laws of logic, your ability to use deductive logic requires you to assume the immaterial classes of things exist, your ability to use inductive logic requires you to assume the uniformity of nature. None of these things can be proven, and the only thingto do is either believe them or not believe them. In short, you have to have faith, or you can't make arguments.

This is the point which my questions to disp were moving towards in the other thread. Since everyone uses faith in the end, I also argued that attempting to divide up statements of faith as religious or not religious is ultimately fruitless, since all faith-based beliefs are accepted by the same basic process.

But really the problem for atheists goes deeper than this. What are the laws of logic, really? They can't simply be social convention, because social convention could be anything. Nor could they simply be instincts evolved in the human race, for the only rule for natural selection is to survive. Nor does it make sense to say they are simply tools for drawing correct conclusions, because that ultimately begs the question. In fact, the laws of logic seem to be a set of immaterial, transcendent universals. A transcendent universal could only be established by something (or someone) that was itself transcendent- which is to say, God. In short, your faith is the reason that you're trying to argue with me instead of answering "purple"to every question- and if that faith has any bearing on reality then deity must exist in the universe.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
Did someone say atheism is a religion in the other thread? I certainly didn't. What I asserted is that atheists are unable to escape having faith and as a result continue to be religious people.

The fact that you're trying to make an argument here proves my point. Your ability to argue requires you to use the laws of logic, your ability to use deductive logic requires you to assume the immaterial classes of things exist, your ability to use inductive logic requires you to assume the uniformity of nature. None of these things can be proven, and the only thingto do is either believe them or not believe them. In short, you have to have faith, or you can't make arguments.

This is the point which my questions to disp were moving towards in the other thread. Since everyone uses faith in the end, I also argued that attempting to divide up statements of faith as religious or not religious is ultimately fruitless, since all faith-based beliefs are accepted by the same basic process.

But really the problem for atheists goes deeper than this. What are the laws of logic, really? They can't simply be social convention, because social convention could be anything. Nor could they simply be instincts evolved in the human race, for the only rule for natural selection is to survive. Nor does it make sense to say they are simply tools for drawing correct conclusions, because that ultimately begs the question. In fact, the laws of logic seem to be a set of immaterial, transcendent universals. A transcendent universal could only be established by something (or someone) that was itself transcendent- which is to say, God. In short, your faith is the reason that you're trying to argue with me instead of answering "purple"to every question- and if that faith has any bearing on reality then deity must exist in the universe.

This (quoted) post is quite impressive in a way: every "content-carrying" sentence in it is incorrect.
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Donald
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Koldfoot wrote:

Classic RSP:

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.


You wrote that book.


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abiogenesis
Koldfoot wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
A question to the religious, Why can't you see that some of us don't have a religious faith? We are baffled that you do in the same way that you seem to be baffled that we don't. The difference is that some of you get to discriminate against us in lots of ways and when we point this out you get all sniffy in civilised states and violent in less civilised ones. (Yes I know there are a handful of states that expound state atheism and even oppress religions brutally but some of them have leadership cults that seem indistinguishable from religion).
The recent mayor thread that turned into an atheism is a religion too thread is a classic case. It was asserted that atheism was a substitute for religion quite forcefully by several posters. It really is not. I have no substitute for religion. I don't have a religion slot in which I do atheism instead. I just have a life that doesn't do religion. I am quite interested in religion in the same way I am interested in history or architecture as something that people do, I just don't do it myself.


Where does life come from?
A chemical process.


What chemical process?
Abiogenesis, of course we have almost as little evidence for this then we do for " a wizard did it".
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