Kasper Rasmussen
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I have one pair of sheeps and one pair of cows, but only room in my starting chamber for one of them, and the breeding phase starts. Do I get to choose what animal I want to breed?

The rules just state that you get all of the animals at the same time, but not why! I imagine it was to prevent you from converting each animal into food and then breeding again, then converting etc.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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You get to choose.
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Alex Johns
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My understanding of the rules is that your breed and take all the animals that you would normally breed (in your example, a cow and sheep), and you then decide which you choose to keep in what locations. those that do not have a home either in your cave or in a pen outside wander off never to be seen, or more importantly used, again.
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Bella
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If the above two posts are correct, this affects the Breeding Cave.
Appendix p. 4 wrote:
Every time you breed your animals (in the Breeding phase or via the corresponding Expedition loot item), you will get 1 Food for each newborn animal.

My previous understanding was that breeding could not even occur if there was no room for the baby. The example in the rulebook supports this:
Rulebook p. 10 wrote:
...Now he is able to keep up to 3 Wild boars...Therefore, his Wild boars can breed a piglet...

This implies that he CAN'T breed the piglet if there is no extra room (so, no food from Breeding Cave).

If however, breeding happens, THEN the baby is given up due to lack of room, it seems that Breeding Cave will give food.

Clarifications, anyone?
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Bella, you're right - Breeding Cave only gives food for animals that you did actually breed. Alex' interpretation is OK when there are no special cases like this to consider.
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Gillum the Stoor
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I don't quite follow. Is result that Breeding cave gives food only for newborn animals for which you have room?
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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You only get baby animals if you have room for them. So yes, the Breeding Cave will only give you food for those newborn animals you had room for.
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Louisa Thinks
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Ponton wrote:
You only get baby animals if you have room for them.


This is an interesting rule, and I think it might be different than Agricola.* I usually explain it using the following thematic rational.

If your animals are in tight quarters, they probably don't have the space (or if they are in your house- the privacy) to make baby animals. They might also be stressed by having so little space and not in the mood to reproduce.

This probably isn't how real-life animals decide whether to breed or not, but I like the idea that this is how my meeple animals think.


EDIT: 1. Added references to the Agricola rulebook and interpretation. 2. I removed my first edit and moved my interpretation and comments to a separate post. (Better rulebook references were posted between my original post and my first edit.) 3. Formatting
 
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that Matt
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whereisyellow wrote:
Ponton wrote:
You only get baby animals if you have room for them.


This is an interesting rule, and I think it might be different than Agricola.

This works the same as Agricola breeding:

Agricola wrote:
Lastly, any player with at least 2 animals of the same type receives exactly one additional (baby) animal of that type – but only if the lamb, the shoat (piglet) or the calf can be accommodated in the farmyard (or on an appropriate Improvement card, for example the “Animal Yard”, “Wildlife Reserve” or “Forest Pasture”).

Caverna wrote:
If you have at least 2 Farm animals of the same type, you get exactly 1 additional (baby) animal of that type – but only if the new animal can be accommodated on your Home board. (Baby animals and parent animals may not be converted into Food immediately after the birth. You have to accommodate them on your Home board first.)
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Yes, Caverna breeding works exactly the same as Agricola breeding.
 
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Louisa Thinks
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Matt, thanks for the rulebook quotes. I was trying to look them up and add them to my post when you beat me to the punch.

I had figured it must be an Agricola thing when Alex referred to newborns without space to live as "wandering away." I had been given a similar rational for not receiving newborns when I was taught Caverna by some die hard Agricola players. Since there is no reference to wandering away in Caverna, I assumed it was from Agricola lore.

Both rulebooks are very clear that you only get animals if you have room for them. However, there is a line in the Agricola rulebook, right after the line you cited, that someone might interpret as a rule variance.

Agricola, pg 4 wrote:
(Newborn animals) simply run away if they cannot be accommodated.

It is a minor thing, but it does imply that in Agricola the animals breed and then wander away. Both games clarify that you cannot turn the newborn into food or keep it, but the implication of breeding and loosing it vs. no breeding impacts Caverna's Breeding Cave tile, which gives you 1 food for each "newborn animal." Since it doesn't specify that you have to receive the animal, one could argue that they should still receive the food for any newborns that were born but wandered off.

In the end, it is probably unnecessary over interpretation of rules, but unfortunately I can also see my gaming group arguing about it.
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that Matt
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whereisyellow wrote:
Both rulebooks are very clear that you only get animals if you have room for them. However, there is a line in the Agricola rulebook, right after the line you cited, that someone might interpret as a rule variance.

Agricola, pg 4 wrote:
(Newborn animals) simply run away if they cannot be accommodated.

It is a minor thing, but it does imply that in Agricola the animals breed and then wander away. Both games clarify that you cannot turn the newborn into food or keep it, but the implication of breeding and loosing it vs. no breeding impacts Caverna's Breeding Cave tile, which gives you 1 food for each "newborn animal." Since it doesn't specify that you have to receive the animal, one could argue that they should still receive the food for any newborns that were born but wandered off.

In the end, it is probably unnecessary over interpretation of rules, but unfortunately I can also see my gaming group arguing about it.

The ruling would have similar implications for Agricola, wherein the minor improvement Bountiful Harvest gives 1 food each time the player breeds at least one animal and harvests at least two resources.

I agree that it is the kind of rule situation that people could argue about (though having spent time in BGG rules forums, it's amazing what people can find to argue about). Still, I'm confident that Grzegorz's interpretation above is correct. "They simply run away" reads to me as thematic flavor, not an explanation of the rules. But I can see someone coming up with a more literal interpretation: "These animals breed, now we move on to the "run away" sub-phase of Breeding..."
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Dave Eisen
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Quote:

I agree that it is the kind of rule situation that people could argue about (though having spent time in BGG rules forums, it's amazing what people can find to argue about). Still, I'm confident that Grzegorz's interpretation above is correct. "They simply run away" reads to me as thematic flavor, not an explanation of the rules. But I can see someone coming up with a more literal interpretation: "These animals breed, now we move on to the "run away" sub-phase of Breeding..."


Splendor raised similar questions with its use of the phrase "Nobles visiting" rather than saying simply that you select one noble from the central display and claim it.

Makes me more and more appreciative of the Winsome Games rules-writing philosophy of "no thematic flavor, simple precise rules."
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Louisa Thinks
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Matt, we are definitely in agreement about the ruling (no room=no breed), and its confusion.

I also appreciate you brining up the Agricola card. I figured that with all the cards in that game there must have been something that brought up the timing of breeding, and it is good to hear that this has already been clarified.

Lastly, found the idea of a "run away" breeding sub-phase hilarious, and I am personally grateful that the Caverna rulebook doesn't mention running away.
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Rory Gilliland
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i always thought that if there was no room for the animal, that it's immediately converted to food....darn
 
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Louisa Thinks
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RoryDG wrote:
i always thought that if there was no room for the animal, that it's immediately converted to food....darn


That is true for purchasing animals, but when it comes to breeding- they just don't do it if there isn't room for the little one.
 
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Jurgen van Veen
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Animals only breed if there is room for the little animal (anywhere on the board).

But note (if I'm correct), that breeding occurs after feeding your people. So suppose you have 3 or more animals of one type (anywhere on the board) You could eat (or just 'cook') one during the feeding phase, making space for the new animal in the breeding phase.

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Carsten Jorgensen
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Prullenbak wrote:
Animals only breed if there is room for the little animal (anywhere on the board).

But note (if I'm correct), that breeding occurs after feeding your people. So suppose you have 3 or more animals of one type (anywhere on the board) You could eat (or just 'cook') one during the feeding phase, making space for the new animal in the breeding phase.



Correct.

But actually converting animals to food is not restricted to the feeding phase (though it might sound like that in the rules it has been corrected in a thread somewhere). So you can do that at any time except during the breeding phase (you might be on an expedition and want to take an animal - then you can make room for it if needed at that time).
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Jurgen van Veen
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You're totally right. But what I said was only a 'solution' for the "oh, I won't have enough space for my newborn animal in about 10 seconds"-problem

Edit: Now I think about it, I don't even think there is a rule that disallows you from 'cooking' during the breeding phase. But...
If you do it before getting the new animal, you must have 2+ animals to breed (so basically, you could say that it's still in the feeding phase?...)
If you 'cook' after getting the new animal, you must have space for it first, or else they won't breed at all (so basically, you might be cooking after the breeding phase, then? I don't know...Why someone would want to do this, is another matter.)

So suppose someone has 3 donkeys and 2 sheep, and plenty of space . He could do:
-cook one donkey, breed donkeys, put it on the board.
-breed one sheep, put it on the board, cook the sheep.
leaving him with 3 donkeys and 2 sheep again.


This is all very nitpicky, but I think it's all allowed.

 
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Prullenbak wrote:
I don't even think there is a rule that disallows you from 'cooking' during the breeding phase. But...
If you do it before getting the new animal, you must have 2+ animals to breed (so basically, you could say that it's still in the feeding phase?...)
If you 'cook' after getting the new animal, you must have space for it first, or else they won't breed at all (so basically, you might be cooking after the breeding phase, then? I don't know...Why someone would want to do this, is another matter.)

So suppose someone has 3 donkeys and 2 sheep, and plenty of space . He could do:
-cook one donkey, breed donkeys, put it on the board.
-breed one sheep, put it on the board, cook the sheep.
leaving him with 3 donkeys and 2 sheep again.

You can "cook" immediately after breeding or immediately before but, in a certain sense, you cannot cook during breeding.

The rules say "You get all of your baby animals at the same time, not one by one."

Here is what you cannot do (back to the original question:
Suppose someone has 3 donkeys and 2 sheep, and space for one animal more:
-breed donkeys, put it on the board, then cook it.
-breed one sheep, put it on the board, and leave it there (or cook it).
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Jurgen van Veen
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Haven't seen that rule. It all happens in a matter of seconds. I personally wouldn't go around the table asking people "Now tell me, when exactly did you cook that sheep?" That would be very annoying.

But you're totally right. The bottom line is:


The feed/breeding phase is like this:
feeding:
- cook whatever you want
- feed your people
- Cook whatever you want
breeding:
- Cook whatever you want
- breed (this includes putting animals on the board. No space, no luck)
- Cook whatever you want (there's no reason for doing this, i think)




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