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First delicious rice recipes, and now this?

Satanists Want To Use Hobby Lobby Decision To Exempt Women From Anti-Abortion Laws

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In a statement, the Satanic Temple said that it will use the Supreme Court’s recent Hobby Lobby decision to exempt its believers from state-mandated informed consent laws that require women considering abortions to read pro-life material[...]

Because the Satanic Temple bases its belief “regarding personal health…on the best scientific understanding of the world, regardless of the religious or political beliefs of others,” it claims that state-mandated information with no basis in scientific fact violates its “religious” beliefs.
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Unintended consequences are unintended.
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Foreseeable consequences are foreseeable.

(alternately: Tautological statements are tautological.)
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I feel like atheists would have tried to pull this shenanigan if anyone considered them worth talking to.

Satan, always fighting for the little guy.
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Drew1365 wrote:
I might recommend thinking it over. I mean, there's that whole eternal damnation thing you gotta contend with. But if you're factoring that in, okay man, go crazy.

It's not like he'd otherwise be a Christian. Aren't we all damned in your mythology?
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Drew1365 wrote:
I might recommend thinking it over. I mean, there's that whole eternal damnation thing you gotta contend with. But if you're factoring that in, okay man, go crazy.


SCIENCE!
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Drew1365 wrote:
I might recommend thinking it over. I mean, there's that whole eternal damnation thing you gotta contend with. But if you're factoring that in, okay man, go crazy.


It's a tough call - I tend to favor the teachings of Christ over the teachings of Satan. But I tend to favor the teachings of Satanists over the teachings of Christians. It's dilemmas like this that make people decide to worship the sun and pray to Joe Pesci.
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galad2003 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I might recommend thinking it over. I mean, there's that whole eternal damnation thing you gotta contend with. But if you're factoring that in, okay man, go crazy.

It's not like he'd otherwise be a Christian. Aren't we all damned in your mythology?


No we're cool with Jews. We understand you have your own covenant with him. The rest of you are fucked though.

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The Oklahoma Statue debate has certainly given the Satanists more limelight than they've previously enjoyed - perhaps the Apocalypse is indeed nigh. Fnord
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galad2003 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I might recommend thinking it over. I mean, there's that whole eternal damnation thing you gotta contend with. But if you're factoring that in, okay man, go crazy.

It's not like he'd otherwise be a Christian. Aren't we all damned in your mythology?


No we're cool with Jews. We understand you have your own covenant with him. The rest of you are fucked though.

Of course I've met other Christians who did not take that view.
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galad2003 wrote:
So statements like that are no better than saying all Black people are X or all Jews believe Y.

Here's the thing. individual Jews' beliefs vary and their takes on the commonly held traditions will as well, but there is a cultural heritage so to speak which in essence virtually all Jews will at least recognize as, "Yes, that's our common cultural heritage." It includes the basics of Jewish Law, various Jewish texts, etc.

What would be the analogous core things of Christianity and where would the differences arise?
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Osirus wrote:
First delicious rice recipes, and now this?

Satanists Want To Use Hobby Lobby Decision To Exempt Women From Anti-Abortion Laws

Quote:
In a statement, the Satanic Temple said that it will use the Supreme Court’s recent Hobby Lobby decision to exempt its believers from state-mandated informed consent laws that require women considering abortions to read pro-life material[...]

Because the Satanic Temple bases its belief “regarding personal health…on the best scientific understanding of the world, regardless of the religious or political beliefs of others,” it claims that state-mandated information with no basis in scientific fact violates its “religious” beliefs.


Well unless the literature has a bunch of religious stuff in it, which I highly doubt it does... they aren't likely to get any traction on this.

Because all the "pro-life" literature is when it is taken to its secular bare bones is SCIENCE info. You know like electrical brain activity has been detected potentially as early as six or seven weeks*... at 10 weeks the organs are in place and many of them are functioning, at 20 weeks you can get your very own ultrasound showing things like yawning, clasping hands, thumb sucking, stretching... you know all the sciencey medical stuff that parents of wanted children go all ga-ga over. But emotional goo aside is still actually Science based.

Stuff that if people realized it was happening might make them think twice before killing their child. Or not. That is what INFORMED consent is all about though.

So you are going to have a hard time saying that reading a Science based pamphlet violates a belief that "the best scientific understanding" is the standard that should be applied. I mean how can having to read some of the science for yourself really be a violation of that standard.

What I don't get is why anybody even thinks it is a bad thing.


*
Quote:
The electrophysiologic rhythm of the brain develops early. Detailed EEG tracings have been taken directly from the headend of 16 mm (crown-rump) human embryos at 40-odd days gestation, recovered from termination of pregnancies (in Japan) which revealed irregular slow waves, 0.2-2.0 per second at 10-90 mv with superimposed fine waves of 30-40 per second at 1-5mv. Recordings from embryos of 45 to 120 days gestation through surface and depth electrodes have shown reponses to sedative and stimulant drugs, normal sleep spindles, and the effect of lack of oxygen by paroxysmal high voltage slow waves and ultimate electrical silence. The intra-uterine fetal brain responds to biochemical changes associated with oxygen deprivation by abnormal EEG activity similar to that produced in the adult brain.

Thus at an early prenatal stage of life, the EEG reflects a distinctly individual pattern that soon becomes truly personalized. This is not so the ECG in producing its various types of records at all ages, many specimens of each type being identical and lacking any individual quality.

Source:
H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964,




Note there is some debate about the 40 days being a misquote by Dr Hamlin from the original source Japanese research paper** about which findings went with which age range. But I am not interested in going to read the original research enough to form an opinion on it myself.


And since the type of abortions (Hysterectomy abortions) that gave the scientists access to still living fetuses at these young ages, are no longer done the work cannot be repeated. But it is enough data that knowing would give me reasonable doubts about the fetus still being just a clump of cells and would affect my feelings about getting an abortion myself.

So I think this and other similar data about fetal development is something people considering abortions should be made aware of. That is part of what being INFORMED adults is really all about. Having actual INFORMATION before making decisions.

I have to read all kinds of stuff before other medical procedures. Things about how I could be crippled or even die from things as routine as going under for minor surgery or taking certain prescription drugs.

I don't see how reading about the risks you might be posing to another potential life is any more onerous.

** Original paper citation if anybody wants to hunt it down and read it for themselves.

Okamoto and Kirikae "Electroencephalographic Studies on Brain of Foetus of Children of Premature Birth and New-Born, Together With Note on Reactions of Foetus Brain Upon Drugs" (Folia Psychiat Neurol Japan 1951)




 
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Personally, I believe that life begins when the woman makes eye contact with the man. Any attempts to interfere with the birth of their child should result in prison rape.

Edit: Seriously, where in the bible does it say that fertilization is when life begins. It's a completely arbitrary assignment of life! Equally arbitrary are my example above or: at the time time of puberty. You're not truly "living" if you're incapable of propagating the species.
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Meerkat wrote:
Osirus wrote:
First delicious rice recipes, and now this?

Satanists Want To Use Hobby Lobby Decision To Exempt Women From Anti-Abortion Laws

Quote:
In a statement, the Satanic Temple said that it will use the Supreme Court’s recent Hobby Lobby decision to exempt its believers from state-mandated informed consent laws that require women considering abortions to read pro-life material[...]

Because the Satanic Temple bases its belief “regarding personal health…on the best scientific understanding of the world, regardless of the religious or political beliefs of others,” it claims that state-mandated information with no basis in scientific fact violates its “religious” beliefs.


Well unless the literature has a bunch of religious stuff in it, which I highly doubt it does... they aren't likely to get any traction on this.

Because all the "pro-life" literature is when it is taken to its secular bare bones is SCIENCE info. You know like electrical brain activity has been detected potentially as early as six or seven weeks*... at 10 weeks the organs are in place and many of them are functioning, at 20 weeks you can get your very own ultrasound showing things like yawning, clasping hands, thumb sucking, stretching... you know all the sciencey medical stuff that parents of wanted children go all ga-ga over. But emotional goo aside is still actually Science based.

Stuff that if people realized it was happening might make them think twice before killing their child. Or not. That is what INFORMED consent is all about though.

So you are going to have a hard time saying that reading a Science based pamphlet violates a belief that "the best scientific understanding" is the standard that should be applied. I mean how can having to read some of the science for yourself really be a violation of that standard.

What I don't get is why anybody even thinks it is a bad thing.


*
Quote:
The electrophysiologic rhythm of the brain develops early. Detailed EEG tracings have been taken directly from the headend of 16 mm (crown-rump) human embryos at 40-odd days gestation, recovered from termination of pregnancies (in Japan) which revealed irregular slow waves, 0.2-2.0 per second at 10-90 mv with superimposed fine waves of 30-40 per second at 1-5mv. Recordings from embryos of 45 to 120 days gestation through surface and depth electrodes have shown reponses to sedative and stimulant drugs, normal sleep spindles, and the effect of lack of oxygen by paroxysmal high voltage slow waves and ultimate electrical silence. The intra-uterine fetal brain responds to biochemical changes associated with oxygen deprivation by abnormal EEG activity similar to that produced in the adult brain.

Thus at an early prenatal stage of life, the EEG reflects a distinctly individual pattern that soon becomes truly personalized. This is not so the ECG in producing its various types of records at all ages, many specimens of each type being identical and lacking any individual quality.

Source:
H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964,




Note there is some debate about the 40 days being a misquote by Dr Hamlin from the original source Japanese research paper** about which findings went with which age range. But I am not interested in going to read the original research enough to form an opinion on it myself.


And since the type of abortions (Hysterectomy abortions) that gave the scientists access to still living fetuses at these young ages, are no longer done the work cannot be repeated. But it is enough data that knowing would give me reasonable doubts about the fetus still being just a clump of cells and would affect my feelings about getting an abortion myself.

So I think this and other similar data about fetal development is something people considering abortions should be made aware of. That is part of what being INFORMED adults is really all about. Having actual INFORMATION before making decisions.

I have to read all kinds of stuff before other medical procedures. Things about how I could be crippled or even die from things as routine as going under for minor surgery or taking certain prescription drugs.

I don't see how reading about the risks you might be posing to another potential life is any more onerous.

** Original paper citation if anybody wants to hunt it down and read it for themselves.

Okamoto and Kirikae "Electroencephalographic Studies on Brain of Foetus of Children of Premature Birth and New-Born, Together With Note on Reactions of Foetus Brain Upon Drugs" (Folia Psychiat Neurol Japan 1951)






I don't have a big issue with mandating reading factual information. Unfortunately, there are occasionally pushes to include information that is basically pseudo-science (e.g., mental health risks that aren't borne out by actual evidence, etc.), so that's where I tend to draw the line.
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whac3 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
So statements like that are no better than saying all Black people are X or all Jews believe Y.

Here's the thing. individual Jews' beliefs vary and their takes on the commonly held traditions will as well, but there is a cultural heritage so to speak which in essence virtually all Jews will at least recognize as, "Yes, that's our common cultural heritage." It includes the basics of Jewish Law, various Jewish texts, etc.

What would be the analogous core things of Christianity and where would the differences arise?


The Nicene Creed is most commonly held to be the core to which all who call themselves Christians must hold:

Quote:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


The Apostle's creed is often used in a similar function in the US, but worldwide the Nicene creed is most common.

The differences arise because humans are flawed.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
whac3 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
So statements like that are no better than saying all Black people are X or all Jews believe Y.

Here's the thing. individual Jews' beliefs vary and their takes on the commonly held traditions will as well, but there is a cultural heritage so to speak which in essence virtually all Jews will at least recognize as, "Yes, that's our common cultural heritage." It includes the basics of Jewish Law, various Jewish texts, etc.

What would be the analogous core things of Christianity and where would the differences arise?


The Nicene Creed is most commonly held to be the core to which all who call themselves Christians must hold


Safe from the persecution of the Roman and Byzantine empires and their successor states, many people who call themselves Christians throughout the Middle East subscribe to earlier heresies regarding the nature of Christ, notably Monophysitism, and therefore reject the Nicene Creed.

I also wonder of Mormons accept the Nicene Creed? While they may not particularly disagree with any of its tenets, I wonder if they consider it to have come from the corrupt and illegitimate church that Mormonism is supposed to have replaced?
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toku42 wrote:
Safe from the persecution of the Roman and Byzantine empires and their successor states, many people who call themselves Christians throughout the Middle East subscribe to earlier heresies regarding the nature of Christ, notably Monophysitism, and therefore reject the Nicene Creed.


This is a point of a lot of confusion.

The short version is, while not everyone agreed with the formulation of the doctrine of Christ's nature that was delivered at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, the western churches were also incorrect in labeling the beliefs of the dissenting churches "monophysitism". No orthodox member of the Armenian Church, Coptic Church, or Jacobite Church would use that term to describe themselves (which is not to say you can't find monophysites, just that they're outside of orthodoxy). However, there has always been an undercurrent that the argument is largely semantic, and especially in recent years many people have come to the understanding that the difference these churches hold to is one of terminology rather than real substance.
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http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/4/gpr090406.html

It looks like the courts have recently (2006) already ruled that this was permissible.

There is also a summary of correct vs false information by state.

Apparently the camel's nose are the "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" referrals. The mandated information is mostly okay but refers pregnant women to Crisis Pregnancy Centers which lie like dogs.

I don't see the state giving religious exceptions for murder. So there will be limits to rulings in this area.

I'm also waiting to see if the state twists an ankle ruling that jehovah's witness, christian scientist, and scientologist business owners medical beliefs are not protected.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Humorous.

Does anyone wish to address the absurdity/or not of equating informed consent with forcing a private party to pay for your healthcare?

What is equivilant here?

Just to get a tattoo or ear piercing you have to sign legal waivers stating you have been advised and now consent.
The constitution.
 
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Meerkat wrote:
Well unless the literature has a bunch of religious stuff in it, which I highly doubt it does... they aren't likely to get any traction on this.


This would only be a counter-argument if they were arguing freedom from religious beliefs in this setting. Instead they seem to me to be arguing that being forced to read such material would be against their religious beliefs, whether it has religious content or not.
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Meerkat wrote:
Because all the "pro-life" literature is when it is taken to its secular bare bones is SCIENCE info. You know like electrical brain activity has been detected potentially as early as six or seven weeks*... at 10 weeks the organs are in place and many of them are functioning, at 20 weeks you can get your very own ultrasound showing things like yawning, clasping hands, thumb sucking, stretching... you know all the sciencey medical stuff that parents of wanted children go all ga-ga over. But emotional goo aside is still actually Science based.


I think that's very generous. I've seen a lot of pro-life literature over the years and only a handful have had accurate science. That's not to say that every single sentence is false but that there are a lot of false claims in a given pamphlet.

Electrical brain activity at six or seven weeks is one thing -- but feels pain is another. There are claims about breast cancer that have been thoroughly debunked. (I'm sure someone here will claim, "No, no, they haven't!")

Now the legislatures that require them to be read may believe they are accurate. But that doesn't mean a Court can't throw them out -- just as the sincere belief many have in ID or Creationism hasn't stopped them from being thrown out as well.

Of course, we don't have the specific materials in front of us so I don't know whether this particular stuff is or isn't science-based.

Quote:
What I don't get is why anybody thinks this is a bad thing.


As noted above, my experience is that the material is often unscientific.

Second, "contains facts" does not mean "is neutral". These are materials expressly designed to cause a particular decision, written by and advocated by people who think that is the only decision a woman should ever make -- and mainly be people who don't think she should legally be allowed to make it at all.

As a hypothetical, suppose American Atheists wrote a pamphlet about religion and wanted people to have to read it in order to make a fully informed decision about religion. My guess is that although you think people should make informed decisions about their faith you might very much doubt that an American Atheist pamphlet was going to be anything like neutral on the subject.

And I suspect even more strongly that you wouldn't like an atheist government that had failed to outlaw religion to force people to read it.
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I didn't expect this video.
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