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Subject: Assess Your Borg Meta rss

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Dan Evans
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After reading many threads and discussing with many players, the reaction to the Borg (either playing or fighting) is a very wide spectrum. I thought I'd try my hand at a poll and seek some clarity.

Please keep this constructive. We have plenty of other threads full of arguments and heated debate.

Poll: Poll: Playing the Borg
My reaction to playing the Borg is:
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
The Borg are fun to play for both OP/Competitive and casual games.
23.7% 27
The Borg are fun to play but only for OP/competitive situations.
5.3% 6
The Borg are not fun to play so I don't play them.
32.5% 37
The Borg are not fun to play but I play them anyway because they win.
17.5% 20
I'm neutral on the Borg.
10.5% 12
Other / My opinion is not listed here.
10.5% 12
Voters 114
My reaction to fighting the Borg is:
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
The Borg are easy to defeat with any fleet.
0.9% 1
The Borg are easy to defeat if you build the right fleet.
13.0% 15
The Borg are neither easy nor hard to defeat.
15.7% 18
The Borg are hard to defeat and I love it that way!
14.8% 17
The Borg are hard to defeat and I find it frustrating.
49.6% 57
Other / My opinion is not listed here.
6.1% 7
Voters 115
Overall:
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
The Borg are just fine as is in the current game.
25.9% 30
The Borg could use some adjustment in the current game.
43.1% 50
The Borg are broken in the current game.
29.3% 34
Other / My opinion is not listed here.
1.7% 2
Voters 116
This poll is now closed.   116 answers
Poll created by Cassiel33
Closes: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:00 am
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Larry DeStefano
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One thing to consider in your poll is something like Borg pure or mixed?

I only like playing the Borg pure. In my last OP I was at the champ table....but there were at least 4 other non-borg fleets out there that I think would have been an equal if not better match then my fleet. I also feel that I got to the champ table more because of some lucky events that happened to break my way.
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Robert Chest
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I enjoy building and playing Borg fleets, especially in ultra competitive OP event settings. The Borg are dominating right now, but we've already seen a few cards come out that counter well against the Borg, and people who don't play Borg are getting better at fielding fleets that compete well against them. The meta is shifting (and being shifted by the game designer) to account for the dominance of the Borg and I think we'll see this trend continue. The Borg will always be strong. I don't expect a silver bullet "beat the Borg" card, but their absolute dominance will eventually come to an end.

Until then, I enjoy playing them.
 
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After losing my last two op events by less than 20 points and by players that snip op prizes with their Borg. It starts to get under your skin. To the point you want to bring a golf club and have a Borg tee off contest with the next Borg ship you see. angry I also think if you want to be competitive in the mixed fraction builds you need to play Borg. This game is much like Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock laugh here is always a way to beat the other team.
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Tobias Strobe
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If a stacked Borg trivializes every other build that is not specifically constructed to have a chance of defeating a Borg, then the Borg is broken. From my limited experience with the game and my general understanding of game design, there is no compelling reason not to play the Borg if you are interesting in winning. Your risk is lower by stacking all your resources on a durable unit, your damage output is massive, and you essentially ignore the cornerstone game mechanic of this system by not having to be concerned with maneuver or facing.
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Michael Ptak
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Another good question to ask is how many fleets are able to defeat the borg that are not specifically designed to counter borg, or employ other power combinations (like Weyoun/Conditional surrender).

I have heard of at least one other thematic TMP build topping some Borg lists, but it was flown by one of the better players in the local meta. I'm curious if, between two veteran players, if a Super cube would win or a list designed to handle all comers. In theory a super cube in the hands of a good player should not lose.

FWIW, hearing that Borg wins are "boring" tells me that they're overpowered in the least.
 
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My meta only does Faction Pure (within a ship mind you), so maybe I have a different view of the Borg. They are definately impressive ships, and a 100 pt Cube is daunting to face off against. That being said, they are not unbeatable. I mostly play Feds so I have access to 360 arcs (Ent-D and Voyager) and the best anti-borg ship(s): Peregrine Attack Fighters. Even then, I have seen Klink builds devastate them as well as Dominion.

I think it is a fair fight if you are prepared.

 
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Larry DeStefano
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A Musketeer wrote:
My meta only does Faction Pure (within a ship mind you), so maybe I have a different view of the Borg. They are definately impressive ships, and a 100 pt Cube is daunting to face off against. That being said, they are not unbeatable. I mostly play Feds so I have access to 360 arcs (Ent-D and Voyager) and the best anti-borg ship(s): Peregrine Attack Fighters. Even then, I have seen Klink builds devastate them as well as Dominion.

I think it is a fair fight if you are prepared.



Read my first post...LOL...Yes I agree for me in a ship pure environment the Borg are more fun to play and I think it gives other players who like to fly different fleets a chance to defeat them. I also agree fighters can do well against the Borg, but beware Barrage of fire LOL.
 
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Aaron Percival
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Barrage of Fire...meet Feedback Pulse. I tried a single Cube build at the weekend (only with stuff from the Sphere and Tac Cube - the new wave has only just come out today) for an Arena event. It wasn't a serious build (already had the S'Gorn) but it taught me a few lessons.

Very limited on options. The best card, Feedback, sucks being unique. They really suffer from lack of modification and when you're playing a single ship having to split fire it can really hurt. The amount of times I used Full Assault and rolled like 1 hit out of my 4 dice.

You still have to fly them smart and not just charge in. The dial, whilst nice, is not completely unpredictable.

That said, playing against multiple bareback is going to be harder and more boring to play as/against.
 
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Thomas Ryan
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aaron2310 wrote:
Barrage of Fire...meet Feedback Pulse. I tried a single Cube build at the weekend (only with stuff from the Sphere and Tac Cube - the new wave has only just come out today) for an Arena event. It wasn't a serious build (already had the S'Gorn) but it taught me a few lessons.

Very limited on options. The best card, Feedback, sucks being unique. They really suffer from lack of modification and when you're playing a single ship having to split fire it can really hurt. The amount of times I used Full Assault and rolled like 1 hit out of my 4 dice.

You still have to fly them smart and not just charge in. The dial, whilst nice, is not completely unpredictable.

That said, playing against multiple bareback is going to be harder and more boring to play as/against.


so the Borg aren't broken cause you roll poorly? well then lets get rid of this poll!
 
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Aaron Percival
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*checks back over my post* Did I say Borg aren't broken? Nope. Did I come across as a nob? Nope. Hmmm. How odd that I should receive such a dickish response.

I'm saying the lack of modification is a disadvantage towards them. Especially when splitting fire like that. It'd mean patience in getting 1 lock one round, another lock another round. And when you're taking a pounding from multiple sources you don't want to be patient like that.
 
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A Musketeer wrote:
My meta only does Faction Pure (within a ship mind you), so maybe I have a different view of the Borg. They are definately impressive ships, and a 100 pt Cube is daunting to face off against. That being said, they are not unbeatable. I mostly play Feds so I have access to 360 arcs (Ent-D and Voyager) and the best anti-borg ship(s): Peregrine Attack Fighters. Even then, I have seen Klink builds devastate them as well as Dominion.

I think it is a fair fight if you are prepared.



Sure, faction pure I've come around to thinking they aren't that bad. They still have the Rook moves, super durability, and 360, but they can no longer convert battle stations, guarantee first shot, infinitely cancel attacks, etc.
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Momtoast
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Yes, I enjoy playing and playing against the Borg in faction pure environments. For the Collective OP1, I played the Borg Sphere, with the Fed Fighters. In my first match against the Ent-D and the Klingon random pull, I only won because my opponent had a few more upgrades assimilated than I did. (oh, and I managed to assimilate Scotty

Anyway, all of my opponents made me work for my wins. So in a faction pure environment I enjoy the Borg.
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Eric B.
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aaron2310 wrote:
*checks back over my post* Did I say Borg aren't broken? Nope. Did I come across as a nob? Nope. Hmmm. How odd that I should receive such a dickish response.

I'm saying the lack of modification is a disadvantage towards them. Especially when splitting fire like that. It'd mean patience in getting 1 lock one round, another lock another round. And when you're taking a pounding from multiple sources you don't want to be patient like that.



By modification do you mean dice-modifying? If so, Borg innately have the Tac Drone for the better-than-TargetLock four re-rolls. Couple that with the BS-granting Flagship and you can have BS + TacDrone Reroll on most attacks. Or throw on the Queen for Battlestations + free Normal Target Lock.

Of course, all of this assumes a Faction Pure environment which is not how the game was "meant" to be played and it's now how the vast majority of venues play. So inferences from a faction pure environment should not really effect responses to whether or not the Borg are breaking the game in general.

Once you go mixed-faction (the actual rules), Borg should never be rolling an attack without a TL+BS-conversion, unless they go for some Weyoun cheese.
 
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Aaron Percival
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RogueThirteen wrote:

By modification do you mean dice-modifying? If so, Borg innately have the Tac Drone for the better-than-TargetLock four re-rolls. Couple that with the BS-granting Flagship and you can have BS + TacDrone Reroll on most attacks. Or throw on the Queen for Battlestations + free Normal Target Lock.


I forgot about him. The problem with that is, of course, the drone spending. They get progressively further down the food chain each time those abilities are used and are limited - another balancing feature of faction-pure Borg. But rerolls are never as good as BS or straight conversion. And getting that BS obviously requires spending more points on the flagship.

Quote:
Once you go mixed-faction (the actual rules), Borg should never be rolling an attack without a TL+BS-conversion, unless they go for some Weyoun cheese.


There's nothing that says mixed-faction are the "actual" rules. It's included as an option and I am aware they designed it to also see mixed faction plays.

In a pure environment the Borg are beatable. Just requires good piloting and good playing. In a mixed environment, yes, they're somewhat more unbalanced (I've played as/against that build and hated every moment of it) but thankfully we play pure mostly over here.
 
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Eric B.
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aaron2310 wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:

By modification do you mean dice-modifying? If so, Borg innately have the Tac Drone for the better-than-TargetLock four re-rolls. Couple that with the BS-granting Flagship and you can have BS + TacDrone Reroll on most attacks. Or throw on the Queen for Battlestations + free Normal Target Lock.


I forgot about him. The problem with that is, of course, the drone spending. They get progressively further down the food chain each time those abilities are used and are limited - another balancing feature of faction-pure Borg. But rerolls are never as good as BS or straight conversion. And getting that BS obviously requires spending more points on the flagship.


Well, a couple of responses:

(1) Rerolls are literally as good as BS-Conversion when it comes to expected hits, and better when it comes to expected damage. Attacking with a reroll and attacking with a BS token have the same expected hits--because each die has a 75% chance of success they are identical in statistical efficacy. The difference is that the reroll attacks will produce more critical hits (more overall expected damage) than the BS-conversion attacks, since that is just going to basic hits. So, if just attacking, the rerolls are literally better than BS conversion, statistically speaking (but of course BS can be used on defense and offense, as a compensation).

(2) Moving down the "food chain" as you spend Drone tokens is typically not a cost. The vast majority of enemy captains are Skill 6+ (e.g. Dukat, Picard, GenKhan, Spock, Martok, Donatra) so there is very little practical difference from having four drone tokens or zero drone tokens, as far as the Borg ship is concerned.

(3) The spending of drone tokens is not much of a balancing factor. Their reroll applies to four attacks, which is typically a good chunk of the game, especially since the first few rounds of attacking are the most important to setting the outcome of the game. Two spheres, each with a tac drone, can enjoy four turns of rerolling attack dice. In the four faction pure double-sphere games I played (I was faction pure, my opponents were not), I never actually founds myself out of drone tokens before killing the entire enemy fleet. Four rounds of 12-14 attack dice with rerolls and scan tokens is pretty brutal. Even if there is worry about running out of drone tokens (e.g. a single Cube), there are several ways to easily regain them say through Seven of Nine or that Borg Alcove thing.
 
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Ilthuain wrote:
If a stacked Borg trivializes every other build that is not specifically constructed to have a chance of defeating a Borg, then the Borg is broken. From my limited experience with the game and my general understanding of game design, there is no compelling reason not to play the Borg if you are interesting in winning. Your risk is lower by stacking all your resources on a durable unit, your damage output is massive, and you essentially ignore the cornerstone game mechanic of this system by not having to be concerned with maneuver or facing.


Hmm, I have not been a Borg hater so far...(not a defender either, mind you)... I have been kind of staying out of the Borg debates, playing them occasionally and feeling like I have a chance when I play against them.

However, this quote does make me start to lean into the "Borg are too powerful" camp. I never thought of it like that.
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Thomas Ryan
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RogueThirteen wrote:
aaron2310 wrote:
*checks back over my post* Did I say Borg aren't broken? Nope. Did I come across as a nob? Nope. Hmmm. How odd that I should receive such a dickish response.

I'm saying the lack of modification is a disadvantage towards them. Especially when splitting fire like that. It'd mean patience in getting 1 lock one round, another lock another round. And when you're taking a pounding from multiple sources you don't want to be patient like that.



By modification do you mean dice-modifying? If so, Borg innately have the Tac Drone for the better-than-TargetLock four re-rolls. Couple that with the BS-granting Flagship and you can have BS + TacDrone Reroll on most attacks. Or throw on the Queen for Battlestations + free Normal Target Lock.

Of course, all of this assumes a Faction Pure environment which is not how the game was "meant" to be played and it's now how the vast majority of venues play. So inferences from a faction pure environment should not really effect responses to whether or not the Borg are breaking the game in general.

Once you go mixed-faction (the actual rules), Borg should never be rolling an attack without a TL+BS-conversion, unless they go for some Weyoun cheese.



I apologize if I was overly dickish...your statement was defending them though...you made it clear they had limited options and even said feedback pulse "sucks"...I would love feedback pulse for any other faction...it is so much better than counter attack I can't even begin to describe it's betterness.
 
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Larry DeStefano
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Feedback pulse is good, I just used barrage of fire if I think I'm facing fighters. This way I don't have to blow a 8 attack on just fighters.
 
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Larry DeStefano
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In a pure environment the Borg are beatable. Just requires good piloting and good playing. In a mixed environment, yes, they're somewhat more unbalanced (I've played as/against that build and hated every moment of it) but thankfully we play pure mostly over here.

reply:

That is what I found as well... Enjoy the Borg much more in a pure environment, but that is just my opinion.
 
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Thomas Ryan
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but faction pure eliminates many many cool combos that aren't broken. Not really "Needs of the many" if you are trying that hard to "balance" the Borg. It's like we are afraid to say it...they are way undercost for what you get. they have slightly less variety in upgrades but have some of the most powerful upgrades and abilities you can get. they have superior movement and arc, superior attack, hull and shields.
I worry that WK is going to break the game trying to put out ships that are equal to the Borg or worse keeps the parity the same and the meta goes completely stale.
Borg need fixing.
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Eric B.
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tpryan01 wrote:
It's like we are afraid to say it...they are way undercost for what you get. they have slightly less variety in upgrades but have some of the most powerful upgrades and abilities you can get. they have superior movement and arc, superior attack, hull and shields.
...
Borg need fixing.


Well, to be fair, quite a few of us have not been afraid to say it. In fact, several of us have been saying it since the Sphere was first teased, since even on paper they were so skewed in cost versus performance.

It's just a bit satisfying, so to speak, to finally see the majority of the player-base start to finally accept it. It was nearly hair-pullingly frustrating there early on when so many players were passionately and angrily disagreeing, trying to claim, for instance, that the sphere was no better than the battleship or they kept asserting that Borg movement was actually worse than normal movement because it was "more predictable" given the lack of banks...that last one still makes me lolz.
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Dan Evans
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Thanks everyone, for your participation in the poll and for your feedback.

@Hadrian132, I struggled with how to incorporate pure versus mixed Borg fleets into this poll, and ultimately cut it out because it muddied it up too much. (It just made too many possible answers.) However, you're very right that it's an important question.

I also think Norsehound makes an interesting point about the kind of fleet needed to defeat the Borg, and how truly diverse those fleets are. I suspect there's no all-comer fleet that could win 50% of the time against the Borg. I may easily be wrong though.

Just a reminder to all readers-- this is not a thread about how beatable or unbeatable the Borg are. It's about peoples' impressions of playing them and fighting them. (Splitting hairs, perhaps, yes.) All I mean is I'd rather this stay free of white-hot-lava debates about mixed faction vs pure, or pure-is-the-default, etc.

Many thanks again!
 
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Larry DeStefano
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tpryan01 wrote:
but faction pure eliminates many many cool combos that aren't broken. Not really "Needs of the many" if you are trying that hard to "balance" the Borg. It's like we are afraid to say it...they are way undercost for what you get. they have slightly less variety in upgrades but have some of the most powerful upgrades and abilities you can get. they have superior movement and arc, superior attack, hull and shields.
I worry that WK is going to break the game trying to put out ships that are equal to the Borg or worse keeps the parity the same and the meta goes completely stale.
Borg need fixing.


True and in the last OP Borg were the only pure everybody else was mix and I had a better time playing the Borg that way, and I could have been beaten I felt.
 
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Cassiel33 wrote:

I also think Norsehound makes an interesting point about the kind of fleet needed to defeat the Borg, and how truly diverse those fleets are. I suspect there's no all-comer fleet that could win 50% of the time against the Borg. I may easily be wrong though.


No all-comer list should be able to hold a 50% or better win-rate with out a superior player if it can then that list is a problem. This is often a failure for most people to realize. All-comer lists are jacks-of-all-trade list and they suffer from being the master of none. When they face a list that is focused on one thing then they will not be able to put nearly as strong of a counter too it as opposed to a list that is dedicated to the counter. This means you need a much better player running it to be able to come out on top remotely consistently.

Borg currently are faction that lives at the edge focus lists. But they live and die at it. Locally we have several players that play the mixed faction borg that are EXTREMELY vulnerable to the Weyoun/Varel builds. We have zero players that will run that build, not a single one. They stoutly refuse to use it, even when they were told it was one of the best ways to deal with the expected list. Think of the odds of a list showing up in your local meta if it goes 0-3. Sometimes as much as you may not want to run a list for whatever reason your particular reason. Sometimes it is better in the long run to suck up your preference to make it better in the long run.
 
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