Tim Kinkead
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The more I think about this, I think an update may be warranted. It would required the entire offensive play grid to be reworked, but on the plays where penalty or turnover is marked, it reduces the efficacy of the plays relative to other offensive plays that have no penalty or turnover marked in the grid.

Would a d20, with a 19 or 20 being a penalty or turnover, be a better way to do this? If anyone reads or even cares, please post your viewpoints.
 
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Marcelo Paschoalin
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Molus Maximus wrote:
Would a d20, with a 19 or 20 being a penalty or turnover, be a better way to do this? If anyone reads or even cares, please post your viewpoints.

No, a random roll on a mostly-luckless game would be detrimental.

What exactly do you intend to emulate?
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Tim Kinkead
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Penalties and turnovers happen randomly in football. The best game plan cannot throw an interception or lead to a five yard offsides penalty. The best way to do it may be to either eliminate them completely, which would make the game less like real football, or to add a die roll, which would add a degree of randomness.
 
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Marcelo Paschoalin
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Wanna random rolls? Try Pizza-Box Football.

Football Strategy is a great game because it's a game of skill, not luck.

Yet YMMV.
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Tim Kinkead
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I was just thinking that because of the random nature of penalties and turnover, it may be best to make them random and make the grid interface nothing but yardage results. I may play with this in a week or two.
 
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I'm with you on this. Penalties and turnovers should be possible with any play. The defense could use a few more penalties as well.
I think a die 20 offers good probabilities.
I would be inclined to modify the roll according to the play--where some might be more likely to create turnovers than others.

Also, I'm not sure how much of an overhaul the chart would need. Most of the penalty results have a corresponding gain/loss. Turnovers could just be replaced with a significant loss. I wouldn't think this would need to be too complicated.

The only thing I worry about is whether it might be a bit tiresome to have to roll a die after every result. It's not a really big deal but I think it would be great if there were a way to accomplish this without an extra die roll.

 
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Tim Kinkead
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In the rules set that I wrote up, the penalty, turnover die could be rolled directly after both the OC and DC reveal their respective plays. As you, however, the introduction of another roll during virtually every play could ruin the ebb and flow. Theoretically, 4 or 5 penalties or turnovers could be rolled in a row. That problem would be rare though, and the usage of a die would, in my opinion, mimic the occurrence of both penalties and turnovers in real football.

In a generic, play calling game like this with no player strengths or weaknesses, I really think this is the only way (that I can conceive of anyway) to deal with penalties and turnovers.
 
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Football Strategy was played competitively in leagues for decades, and not just by ordinary joes but also by guys who designed games for a living.

If you don't like it, that's fine; you're free to design your own variant (I've clicked the 'wrong folder' flag). The rules work perfectly, and any suggestion they need fixing should be dismissed out of hand.
 
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Tim Kinkead
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I agree the rules I created should be listed as a fan-made, not-for profit variant and have changed the title of the file accordingly.

With that being said, it was played in competitive leagues for decades in the 20th Century. It doesn't recreate a modern pro, or even college, football game very well anymore. Any ideas I or other posters have thrown around about FS are simply trying to breathe new life into an otherwise dead game. I was actually hoping to set up a student FS league at my school but realized the kids would never play the game as is because of how it looks and plays. Whatever changes I made in the variant may stink, but they do address perceived shortcomings in the game.

The terminology in the rules and in the play grids is obsolete. The kicking rules don't come close to matching modern football. There is no way to try a two-point conversion. Although I am no game designer, it is clear that some fan-made updates are in order.



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It was never a simulation; it was a battle of wits from the start. Think and double think. For what you're talking about, NFL Strategy would provide a more suitable chassis. It's built from the ground up to do what you want and more. All you'd really need to adjust for today's game would be the kicking game.

Full disclosure: Like both of those games, I was made in the 20th century. . I've followed both pro and college football since the 1950s.
 
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Tim Kinkead
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I will have to check NFL Strategy out...I didn't know anything about that game. I'm from the 20th Century too....that was not intended to be a personal knock. I was just trying to illustrate that FS as constructed mimics a style of football that is no longer played.
 
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I didn't take it as a knock; I was just excercising my peculiar sense of humor. (Might have done better asking whether having a picture of myself with the Pac-12 record holder for receiving yards in a season gives me any street cred).

As for the game mimicking a style of football, I guess it's a matter of how closely you look. Football Strategy is a pure guessing game with a matrix. Field position and game situation affects the usefulness of certain plays, and the ability to read your opponent's tendencies pays off big time, but that's about it.

What if you took that play selection a step further, and play selection by the offensive and defensive coaches generated its own matrix? As we know, calling the right play only gets you so far; execution is huge. With a matrix for each pair of plays selected, you provide a chance (albeit a smaller one) for calling the right play and having it blow up in your face anyhow, or to call the wrong one and have it succeed when somebody falls down or misses a tackle. Or as you mentioned earlier, to have a penalty take it out of your hands.

A game which does that takes you far deeper into what's happening on the field. And it's enhanced if you get a playbook that actually teaches you about individual assignments in the play, and uses modern football terminology. That's what you'll find in NFL Strategy.
 
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Does cross referencing two matrices on every play make NFL strategy take a long time?
 
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Molus Maximus wrote:
Does cross referencing two matrices on every play make NFL strategy take a long time?

Yes and no. There is a very clever method for arriving at the matrix, but as I noted this is more of a simulation and the plays are keyed to advance game time appropriately. You can actually run out the clock by hammering away with the running game. Playing time is listed as 150 minutes, so more or less the time of an actual game minus halftime.

If you have more questions, may I suggest that you open a new thread in the NFL Strategy folder? I realize it was me who was responsible for shifting the topic to another game, and I think it made sense in context, but I also think it's good practice to discuss games in their own folders. In fact, if you delete your last post and put it in a new thread over there, I'll delete this one and illustrate my response there with a picture or two.
 
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Tim Kinkead
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After playing numerous games of FS, I really think that turnovers and penalties need to be randomized. Sacks are fine...I understand coverage sacks. The turnovers that automatically result when cross referencing certain plays makes no sense. Turnovers are the result of either individual mistakes or individual plays....neither of which is part of this case. I think I am going to work on new offensive play grids and substitute incomplete passes, losses, or no gains for turnovers and penalties. I then think a d20 could be used to randomize the penalties and turnovers. Simply rolling a d20 when the OC call his play...20 means penalty or turnover, another roll indicates details.
 
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Or perhaps an interception roll on every incomplete pass...not sure. I think I may just work up a variant and try it out. The game, as is, is still quite fun. The automatic turnovers or penalties are just a pet peeve of mine. I'm also working on retro-fitting some NFL VCR football field for Football Strategy as well...much bigger field w/ better 1st down marker...enough room around the field to past charts....has a pot for quarters.
 
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Since the house rules I created only use a d20, I could just use that for turnovers. Good idea!

The more I think about making changes to the grid, however, I think the original posters are correct. Changing the grid would change the nature of the game...Tom Shaw must have spent some serious time developing it, it has been play tested for 50 years, and even my 14-16 year old students love the game and have no complaints about the play calling. Although I think it is logical to remove turnovers and penalties from the grid or to add a random element to turnovers & penalties (because they are random elements in a football game) with dice, I can now understand the traditionalists' resistance to do so. With just a little tweaking to the kicking, punting, 2 point conversions, and a few other minor elements, the engine of the game still works.

I'd still like to do a side project or look at someone else's house rules with a new modified grid. Does anyone out there have one?
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