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Subject: Runewars overhaul and rebalancing, BoW included [discussion thread] rss

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Joachim Poirel
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Runewars is one of my top 5 favorite games and keeps impressing me with its depth. But it has a few minor balance issues especially in 2p that can be easily fixed. Banner of war is also in dire need of rebalancing due to the lack of playtesting put into the game. I mean to create a series of fixes with the help of the community to address these issues.


To do list [incomplete]

Base game
- Rebalance some tactic cards for 2 players and maybe Lost city tactic card: some Tactics were unfit for 2p such as Favorable alliance and others are slightly OP in 2p such as Lost City
- Rebalance some season cards for 2 players and generally: some season cards seemed unfit for 2p and some simply useless like Lights of Winter
Twitch combat and duels/questing? to provide more interesting decision and player control: combat and duels feel lacking on a tactical basis and could use some improvement
Modify slightly the diplomacy system: the diplomacy system does not usually feel like a useful alternative and isn't always fit to accomplish the objectives that require it.
Latari defensive development that feels overly weak.
- Everything must be consistent with revised rules

Banners of War
- complete overhaul, rebalancing and rethinking of the commander system: the actual commander system is plain bad from all points of view. It does not provide any interesting or meaningful decisions from a tactical point of view and ends up giving us useless commanders that just end up exploring as their combat bonuses are most of the time quite weak
-rebalancing of new units to put them on par with older ones: some units are a no-brainer compared to their old alternative for example the Roc is plain better than the Siege tower as it has a better special, better HP and a better development as well as a few others.
-rebalancing of development cards: the four special abilities development cards all feel extremely weak , some developments are useless ( the Obscene one for example ) or overpriced while some are OP (Like the Leonx rider upgrade for only 2 resource)
-modification of Capital system: Capitals are fairly useless for now as they improve defense where you need it the least, far from the border
-better integration of the Lost City: the lost city tile at this point creates a large resource vacuum in the region in which it is present until it is revealed- and the quests to reveal it are very luck-based..
-rebalancing of the new quests- some new quests are pointless (zorek's challenge or the one that gives units can't recall the name..) and some are OP like the ones that give direct runes because that make heroes way too strong
-rebalancing of the new tiles: the new tiles might make you run out of neutral in some rare cases
-rebalancing of the new objectives:some objectives are way too hard like National Opulence or Occupied kingdom that are extremely map-dependant
-rethinking or ditching most of the new tactic and season cards: these extra cards destroy much of the relative predictability that made the beauty of the base decks. For the seasons one cannot make expectations and decisions as easily and influence is weaker because rune- creating winter events are now statistically rarer. The new tactics totally upset the balance that existed in the tactic cards as it is near impossible to make decisions based on your knowledge of the deck and some tactics are pointless while some are totally OP (like silverhorn passage or the one that allows to remove a opponent from the bid)
-rethink the New cities that penalize too much players that do not control any cities and make Acquire power pointless.

You may now post your ideas and proposed fixes for discussion! Please help me make Runewars a better game
I will post a complete variant once every item on the list has been fixed.
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Wayne Schulatz
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Cadellon wrote:


You may now post your ideas and proposed fixes for discussion! Please help me make Runewars a better game



This part made me smile.

Sorry I can't be of any help but I look forward to checking back on this thread.
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Joachim Poirel
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I will start with the fix for the Latari defensive development:
It now forces the opponent to retreat a unit AND destroy a already damaged unit
This should set it on par with the human defenses.

And the capitals:
The defensive bonus given by capitals is increased by 2. Capitals may now be built in any area containing a srtonghold of your faction. (Is a-thematic but allows you to use the capital where you actually need it. ) the extra defense bonus might be op in some situatins so I would like your opinion on this.
EDIT: I will post a separate thread with the collection of fixes when this is done.
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Henning
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Cadellon wrote:

You may now post your ideas and proposed fixes for discussion! Please help me make Runewars a better game
I will post a complete variant once every item on the list has been fixed.


I play with a number of house rules but the most relevant regarding your post are these:

* Randomly draw 1 Title card for each player and remove the rest of the Tile cards from the game.

* Do not play with Commanders, instead, heroes in a friendly stronghold, matching a player’s affiliation may draw 1 Commander card instead of moving, training or healing in the quest phase. A hero cannot have more than 1 commander card and must discard down to 1 card if it have more. A hero with commander card is only considered a Commander when resolving its Commander card. The Hero may support any unit, as all heroes can, in addition to using the Commander card.

* Protective Wards (Elven Defensive Development) and Sorceress' word of vaal ability allows the Elven player to choose which unit to retreat, instead of opponent chooses.

* Vampire: Blood call: Destroy 1 routed enemy triangle or circle unit to gain 1 Vampire and add it to the battle, or route 1 enemy triangle or circle unit of your choice.

* Frost wyrm: remove fast trait.

* Novice Wizard: Ball Lightning: Deal damage or [insert old ability]-

* Siege tower: add +3 to battle strength

* Rock: health 3. Do 3 damage instead of 4.

* Forest Guardian: Arbor Burst: Deal DAMAGE and 1 extra DAMAGE for each Wood resource in the area of the battle.

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Joachim Poirel
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I am impressed with your unit fixes. They are almost exactly like the ones I thought of (and use in our games). I am glad to see that we both found the same units broken
I really like your forest guardian fix because I was having a hard time coming up with something balanced. This was just what I was looking for. The vampire new ability seems a bit too strong on the other hand.
I also like your alternate commander rules. They are simple and streamlined (I was thinking of a much more complex stat based variant along the lines of those proposed on the forum before the expansion came out).

I'm not sure I get the point of the Title variant, as some tiltes are way stronger than others
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Cadellon wrote:
I am impressed with your unit fixes. They are almost exactly like the ones I thought of (and use in our games). I am glad to see that we both found the same units broken
I really like your forest guardian fix because I was having a hard time coming up with something balanced. This was just what I was looking for. The vampire new ability seems a bit too strong on the other hand.
I also like your alternate commander rules. They are simple and streamlined (I was thinking of a much more complex stat based variant along the lines of those proposed on the forum before the expansion came out).

I'm not sure I get the point of the Title variant, as some tiltes are way stronger than others


Thanks! I am glad you like most of them!


Regarding the Vampire:
I have never actually managed to trigger their original orb-ability even once in any of my games I played. The requirement to already have inflicted a rout on a triangle of circle unit is way too restrictive for this (otherwise cool) ability to be of any use. The added flexibility of inflicting a rout means that this ability may be of use way more often (and if you draw 2 orbs with your vampires you may at least get 1 new vamp). I can't imagine the situation this is too strong.

Also notice that I skipped the sentence "The new Vampire is initiative 5 and has no special ability for this battle" which makes the new vamp unable to attack during this combat as it was before. It will only contribute to the battle strength this battle.

If you still think it is too strong please explain why so that I can understand.


Regarding the Title variant:
I see now that as written it can be interpreted as that you give each player a title card at the beginning of the game. That was not my intention. Let me rephrase it:
"At the setup, instead of having all the title cards available, randomly draw 1 Title card per player. These are the Titles cards available during this game (return the rest of the Tile cards to the game box)."

I simply wanted to limit the number of title cards available so that it scales with the number of players, in order to keep the titles rare. It also creates some variation between games. For example, the Patriarch will not always show up in 2 or 3-player games. I found this variant to be one of my favorites -- simple and fun, if I may say so myself.

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Cadellon wrote:

-rebalancing of development cards: the four special abilities development cards all feel extremely weak , some developments are useless ( the Obscene one for example ) or overpriced while some are OP (Like the Leonx rider upgrade for only 2 resource)
-modification of Capital system: Capitals are fairly useless for now as they improve defense where you need it the least, far from the border


I am currently working (and have been for quite some time) on balance changes to the development cards, including getting the capitals cheaper (only one ore instead). Also note that capitals can be of use even if your home realm is not going to be invaded, as you free up another ordinary stronghold, changing your maximum stronghold count from 4 to 5. Do you think they need more tweaking as well?

I can post my thoughts about the dev cards here if you want.
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Joachim Poirel
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Re: Runewars overhaul and rebalancing, BoW included [discussion thread]Chan
Hinnyboy wrote:
Cadellon wrote:

-rebalancing of development cards: the four special abilities development cards all feel extremely weak , some developments are useless ( the Obscene one for example ) or overpriced while some are OP (Like the Leonx rider upgrade for only 2 resource)
-modification of Capital system: Capitals are fairly useless for now as they improve defense where you need it the least, far from the border


I am currently working (and have been for quite some time) on balance changes to the development cards, including getting the capitals cheaper (only one ore instead). Also note that capitals can be of use even if your home realm is not going to be invaded, as you free up another ordinary stronghold, changing your maximum stronghold count from 4 to 5. Do you think they need more tweaking as well?

I can post my thoughts about the dev cards here if you want.


Well you rarely build more than 2 extra strongholds so in most games being able to access 5 strongholds instead of 4 is not such a big bonus. The only time I ever built the capital was to accomplish the Good objective. So they IMHO need fixes. In my fix capitals would be expensive but quite useful. Haven't playtested it yet though.

I would love to see your development ideas.
Here is what I thought of for now:
- Rework each special ability to keep it similar to the original but more powerful (not sure how to make that balanced yet neither what to modify
- change Obsene development to allow you to replace it unrouted in another area after a battle in which it was routed
- Change necromancer develpment to 1 ore cost and the recruited skeleton archer acts at initiative 2
- latari warrior development now costs only 1 ore
- Nerekhall rangers costs only 1 wood
- Change Dark Knight develpment to "you are not limited to 3 types of units when activating your special ability. Inflict 1 damage when activating Dark Knights ability"
- maybe reduce cost of Paladins and Midnight Chalice developments.

EDIT: a Initiative 5 unit can draw cards Your title variant is good but is more of a fun variant than a essential fix. I guess you are still right about the vampires though.
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Cadellon wrote:

EDIT: a Initiative 5 unit can draw cards


I know that... read the sentence again

If vampires already have drawn cards and a new vampire is added (at the same initiative), the new vampire will not be able to draw any cards in this battle.


(Legend: F = food, W = wood, O = Ore)

Uthuk Yllan
Frenzy
No changes

Ravenous Hunger
New Cost: W
New ability: Flesh Rippers are initiative 0. (resolve all unit types with initiative 0 before resolving initiative 1).

Covenant of Blood
New Cost: F F W

Infernus
No changes.

Into the Underfires
No changes.

Hunger for Revenge
Same cost.
New ability: After a battle in which one or more Obscene is routed (including when retreating), stand them up.

The Gathering Stone
Under re-consideration.

The Deserts of Yllan
Same cost.
Modified ability:
Areas you control with a desolation token still provide resources.
Place a desolation token in an area adjacent to your home realm. Whenever a “Famine” or “Drought” Season card is revealed, you may place a desolation token on an area adjacent to an area containing a desolation token.

Latari Elves
Eagle Eyed Archers
Same cost.
Modified ability: During a battle, Archers resolve Fate cards as if they were [circle] unit types.

Predator’s Will
No changes.

Keeper of the Sigils
Same cost.
Modified ability: After resolving the Sorceress’ Word of Vaal ability, you may stand 1 of your routed units, or remove all damage on 1 of your units, in the battle.

Noble Heart
Changed cost: F
Same ability.

Silver Stables of Elmhall
Same cost.
Modified ability: Each time you recruit a Pegasus Rider you also receives 1 influence. In addition, in battle, Pegasus Riders are always considered to be supported by a hero.

Ancients of the Forest
No changes.

Lithelin the White City
Under re-consideration.

Season of Twilight
No changes.

Waiqar the Undying
Lands of Blight
Same cost.
Modified ability: You gain 8 Reanimate tokens. These tokens may be recruited as Reanimate figures. In addition each time you recruit using the food dial, you may recruit 1 additional Reanimate.

Unholy Ballistics
No changes

Liches
Changed cost: O
Same ability.

Midnight Charlice
Changed cost: F
Same ability.

Horror Riders
No changes

Toxic Wyrms
No changes.

Zorgass the Black Fortress
Under re-consideration.

Soulblind
Changed cost: W
Same ability.

Daqan Lords
National Draft
No changes.

Nerekhall Rangers
Changed cost: W
Same ability.

Paladin
No changes.

Journeyman Wizards
No changes.

Reinforced Battering Rams
Changed cost: O
Modified ability: At the start of a battle involving a Siege Tower, you may spend 1 influence to damage an opponent’s stronghold in the area.

War Harness
No changes.

Archaut the Citadel
Under re-consideration.

Support of the People
Changed cost: F
Modified ability: Gain 3 peasant tokens. When you move all your units from an area, you may place one peasant token in the area. You control each with a peasant token. Discard the peasant token when an enemy unit moves into the area.



None of these are final of course, so please comment.

Edit: changed formatting.
Edit 2: changed some developments after suggestions in another post.
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Cadellon wrote:
Your title variant is good but is more of a fun variant than a essential fix.


Agreed!
 
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EDIT: Removed content as it was kind of out of topic.
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Joachim Poirel
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Yeah these are good but are sorta out of context. So these would act as extra developments?
 
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Cadellon wrote:
Yeah these are good but are sorta out of context. So these would act as extra developments?


Yes, that was the idea. Sorry, I got a little carried away there. In hindsight this was not the topic to discuss these.

Anyway... what do you think of the "revised" development cards?
 
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Joachim Poirel
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Hinnyboy wrote:
Cadellon wrote:
Yeah these are good but are sorta out of context. So these would act as extra developments?


Yes, that was the idea. Sorry, I got a little carried away there. In hindsight this was not the topic to discuss these.

Anyway... what do you think of the "revised" development cards?




No problem. I would love to see your extra abilities implemented though

I agree with most but not all. I'll leave out the special faction abilities for now as these are the most complex.
My comments:
-Covenant of blood worked fine as it was. I think the increased price makes it much less useful (the blood sisters run out quickly anyway and are killed quickly so this allows you to use them a bit)
-Hunger for Revenge is still underpowered. Maybe just change it to allow you to stand it up and put it in the area of your choice. But even that might not be worth it...
-land of blight is Op. I would already pay 2 food for the 8 extra tokens (I always play epic ) and droping the price makes it a no-brainer. I would maybe leave the extra reanimate but not change the price
-War harness might make the Roc too dtrong for that price. Humans already have one fast unit and I would already pay 1F just for the improved initiative.
I need to put more thought into the faction special abilities, especially the uthuk and elf ones as they act as economic engines and are in consequence much harder to balance.
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Thanks for the feedback!

Cadellon wrote:

My comments:
-Covenant of blood worked fine as it was. I think the increased price makes it much less useful (the blood sisters run out quickly anyway and are killed quickly so this allows you to use them a bit)

Really? In my experience each time someone researched this in the old version, it felt way too good. Like the best upgrade there was.

Cadellon wrote:

-Hunger for Revenge is still underpowered. Maybe just change it to allow you to stand it up and put it in the area of your choice. But even that might not be worth it...

Though I have not play-tested this yet, the opportunity to counter attack with hexagon units right after a battle (if you choose to) seams strong. But then again, this occurrence might be rare. Have to think a little more on this.

Cadellon wrote:

-land of blight is Op. I would already pay 2 food for the 8 extra tokens (I always play epic ) and droping the price makes it a no-brainer. I would maybe leave the extra reanimate but not change the price

I trust your experience with this development. I will do as you suggested.

Cadellon wrote:

-War harness might make the Roc too dtrong for that price. Humans already have one fast unit and I would already pay 1F just for the improved initiative.

Yeah, agreed! I don't remember what I was thinking at the time I came up with the idea. Maybe thematic reasons. Anyway, reverting back to the original version of this development.

Cadellon wrote:

I need to put more thought into the faction special abilities, especially the uthuk and elf ones as they act as economic engines and are in consequence much harder to balance.

Sure!
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Joachim Poirel
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Hinnyboy wrote:
Thanks for the feedback!

Cadellon wrote:

My comments:
-Covenant of blood worked fine as it was. I think the increased price makes it much less useful (the blood sisters run out quickly anyway and are killed quickly so this allows you to use them a bit)

Really? In my experience each time someone researched this in the old version, it felt way too good. Like the best upgrade there was.

Cadellon wrote:

-Hunger for Revenge is still underpowered. Maybe just change it to allow you to stand it up and put it in the area of your choice. But even that might not be worth it...

Though I have not play-tested this yet, the opportunity to counter attack with hexagon units right after a battle (if you choose to) seams strong. But then again, this occurrence might be rare. Have to think a little more on this.

Cadellon wrote:

-land of blight is Op. I would already pay 2 food for the 8 extra tokens (I always play epic ) and droping the price makes it a no-brainer. I would maybe leave the extra reanimate but not change the price

I trust your experience with this development. I will do as you suggested.

Cadellon wrote:

-War harness might make the Roc too dtrong for that price. Humans already have one fast unit and I would already pay 1F just for the improved initiative.

Yeah, agreed! I don't remember what I was thinking at the time I came up with the idea. Maybe thematic reasons. Anyway, reverting back to the original version of this development.

Cadellon wrote:

I need to put more thought into the faction special abilities, especially the uthuk and elf ones as they act as economic engines and are in consequence much harder to balance.

Sure!

The blood sorceress is one of these expansion units (like the leonx rider) that is designed to be used with the developments and aren't of much use until you get the development. In my experience the Chaos lord development can be just as useful
You are right about the Obsene I really need to put more thought into it

Otherwise keep your great ideas going!
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Joachim Poirel
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Ok I just had a idea to rebalance diplomacy. I know a lot of you are complaining at the "wimpy neutrals" but I am looking at this from a strategic and balance-concerned point of view, not thematic ,point of view.

So it's as simple as that: you get 3 cards per 2 influence spend. All other rules still apply
That allows the Good factions to accomplish their neutral allying objectives and gives the evil ones a harder time at their neutral destroying objectives that were waaay to easy.

Please give me your thoughts on this (aside from :" You cannot do that! It ain't realistic" )
 
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Cadellon wrote:
Ok I just had a idea to rebalance diplomacy. I know a lot of you are complaining at the "wimpy neutrals" but I am looking at this from a strategic and balance-concerned point of view, not thematic ,point of view.

So it's as simple as that: you get 3 cards per 2 influence spend. All other rules still apply
That allows the Good factions to accomplish their neutral allying objectives and gives the evil ones a harder time at their neutral destroying objectives that were waaay to easy.

Please give me your thoughts on this (aside from :" You cannot do that! It ain't realistic" )

To be honest I think the old diplomacy rules are quite elegant and this change would make it strange and a bit ugly. I think we have to live with that diplomacy is mostly kind of underpowered. In the right circumstances though (e.g. If a lot neutrals have been clumped together) it can be powerful. I would rather change the silver result to that the one attempting the diplomacy may choose which legal hex to retreat them to instead of the one to his left. And maybe choose if they will remain standing or be routed or something like that.

Maybe make the neutral units more valuable by excluding them from the winter starvation or something like that.

Maybe the objective cards are the ones to be changed, if you think they are unequal.
 
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Joachim Poirel
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At first I thought that the solution was to rebalance good objectives but at this point the neutral-associated evil objectives are real easy to accomplish as you basically kill them during your early development while the good objectives probably require something like 12 influence each to be accomplished and a extremely specific starting strategy that will not benifit you in many ways (you cannot reallya attack your big neutrals until you have a ton of influence as you risk killing them or putting them in a place where someone else will kill them) but if you wait too much they will be dead so to try to accomplish it every early influence you get goes into it while others aee buying more useful stuff with it. . So it slows down your early development a lot to try to accomplish it and ends up being almost alwys discarded with the spring event. Other objectives are much easier and drawing it basically means that you are one dragon rune under other players as it is very obvious when you are trying to accomplish it and other players can easily prevent it (more easily than say, Powerful Kingdom or Influent leader). My problem is that diplo can be fine for retreating units but useless for recruiting, plus whatever you recruit can be lost by broken allegiances making it expensive and difficult to recruit them. The food ruling you propose would not solve the problem as it improves the neutrals power but not how you recruit them.

I did try 2 cards for 1 influence but it did seem a bit unbalanced as it essentially allowed you to spend influence to take a areas way too easily so I ended ruling it as 2inf/3cards and it wokrs pretty well as you anyway never spend only 1 inf. It is less elegant but more balanced.

Another idea that I did not try out was to reduce the objectives to 1 dragon/giant needed and make influence already spent stay under the unit(s) on which you spent it and you draw during diplo extra cards according to the influence under the unit(s). It might seem a bit more elegant.


 
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Cadellon wrote:
At first I thought that the solution was to rebalance good objectives but at this point the neutral-associated evil objectives are real easy to accomplish as you basically kill them during your early development while the good objectives probably require something like 12 influence each to be accomplished and a extremely specific starting strategy that will not benifit you in many ways (you cannot reallya attack your big neutrals until you have a ton of influence as you risk killing them or putting them in a place where someone else will kill them) but if you wait too much they will be dead so to try to accomplish it every early influence you get goes into it while others aee buying more useful stuff with it. . So it slows down your early development a lot to try to accomplish it and ends up being almost alwys discarded with the spring event. Other objectives are much easier and drawing it basically means that you are one dragon rune under other players as it is very obvious when you are trying to accomplish it and other players can easily prevent it (more easily than say, Powerful Kingdom or Influent leader).
...
Another idea that I did not try out was to reduce the objectives to 1 dragon/giant needed and make influence already spent stay under the unit(s) on which you spent it and you draw during diplo extra cards according to the influence under the unit(s). It might seem a bit more elegant.

Yeah, I agree the Good neutral-oriented objectives are very difficult. Maybe just allying with 1 is hard enough -- that might be a balanced solution. But, it feels a little meh since you are supposed to be seeking the aid form the giants/dragons, suggesting almost the entire race in this part of the world. Maybe I read too much into it…

Some of the more difficult objectives from the expansion give out secondary rewards in addition to a dragon rune. This might be a good approach to these objectives as well. What about just adding “gain 6 influence” to the dragon rune reward? This will mitigate much of the investment made. This also feels kind of thematic in my opinion. You now have the support of the giants/dragons and you should also gain some influence due to this.

Also remember that you now also have 2 giants/dragons at your command


So what about the neutral-oriented Evil objectives? Do you think they are TOO easy compared to other objectives?


Cadellon wrote:

My problem is that diplo can be fine for retreating units but useless for recruiting, plus whatever you recruit can be lost by broken allegiances making it expensive and difficult to recruit them. The food ruling you propose would not solve the problem as it improves the neutrals power but not how you recruit them.

Well, to be fair, broken allegiances doesn't make recruiting neutrals more difficult or expensive. It makes them less attractive to have, and my starvation tweak compensates for this by far.

 
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Hinnyboy wrote:
Cadellon wrote:
At first I thought that the solution was to rebalance good objectives but at this point the neutral-associated evil objectives are real easy to accomplish as you basically kill them during your early development while the good objectives probably require something like 12 influence each to be accomplished and a extremely specific starting strategy that will not benifit you in many ways (you cannot reallya attack your big neutrals until you have a ton of influence as you risk killing them or putting them in a place where someone else will kill them) but if you wait too much they will be dead so to try to accomplish it every early influence you get goes into it while others aee buying more useful stuff with it. . So it slows down your early development a lot to try to accomplish it and ends up being almost alwys discarded with the spring event. Other objectives are much easier and drawing it basically means that you are one dragon rune under other players as it is very obvious when you are trying to accomplish it and other players can easily prevent it (more easily than say, Powerful Kingdom or Influent leader).
...
Another idea that I did not try out was to reduce the objectives to 1 dragon/giant needed and make influence already spent stay under the unit(s) on which you spent it and you draw during diplo extra cards according to the influence under the unit(s). It might seem a bit more elegant.

Yeah, I agree the Good neutral-oriented objectives are very difficult. Maybe just allying with 1 is hard enough -- that might be a balanced solution. But, it feels a little meh since you are supposed to be seeking the aid form the giants/dragons, suggesting almost the entire race in this part of the world. Maybe I read too much into it…

Some of the more difficult objectives from the expansion give out secondary rewards in addition to a dragon rune. This might be a good approach to these objectives as well. What about just adding “gain 6 influence” to the dragon rune reward? This will mitigate much of the investment made. This also feels kind of thematic in my opinion. You now have the support of the giants/dragons and you should also gain some influence due to this.

Also remember that you now also have 2 giants/dragons at your command


So what about the neutral-oriented Evil objectives? Do you think they are TOO easy compared to other objectives?


Cadellon wrote:

My problem is that diplo can be fine for retreating units but useless for recruiting, plus whatever you recruit can be lost by broken allegiances making it expensive and difficult to recruit them. The food ruling you propose would not solve the problem as it improves the neutrals power but not how you recruit them.

Well, to be fair, broken allegiances doesn't make recruiting neutrals more difficult or expensive. It makes them less attractive to have, and my starvation tweak compensates for this by far.



Well my first diplomacy fix resolves all the problems we talked about in one rule without changing any cards and in just one rule, because if diplo is easier it will make the way too easy Evil neutral- oriented objectives as hard as they should be and allow the good objectives to actually be accomplished and makes neutrals sorta attractive.
Adding influence to the objective does not really resolve the problem imho as you make them more valuable, not easier as they are still nearly impossible.
Food does not really help either as a skillful, cautious player will almost always be able to get to 8 food through developments and Master of the Guild of Merchants.
And yes having having the big neutrals can be useful but not as much as you would think.
So what do you think about my other alternate rules? They still do seem a bit weak to me.

As for other objectives two seem a bit unbalanced.
National Opulence can either be very easy or nigh impossible depending on wether you have a lot of cities or not and Occupied kingdom can is hard and will be impossible in some configurations. ( a solution would be to draw objectives etc before you place kingdoms) or tweak a lot both of these objectives.

Btw what I said about broken allegiances is a mistake I forgot to replace "making it expensive and difficult" by "making it even less useful ans valuable"
 
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