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Subject: Why change the effects of rigging damage on ship's movement? rss

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Steve
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Why – This is necessary because a ship still has 2/3 of its motive power after 1 mast falls and shouldn't be stopped in dir. C, just slowed [but it can't be slowed to less than 1 without stopping it, so it's better to let it move 1]. Historically, [according to Adm. Mahon's, The Influence of Sea Power upon History, fleets fought close hauled (i.e. dir. C) & they wouldn't have if damaged ships stopped after 1 mast fell.

My proposed rule –
. . . A] The free 60 deg. turn per game turn allows more choices for what happens when a mast falls.
. . . . . . 1] When the 1st masts falls the ship loses its free 60 deg. turn. But, so long as any part of a mast stands a ship can always turn to a direction in which it can move.
. . . . . . 2] When the 2nd mast falls it loses 1 hex of speed in all directions.
. . . . . . 3] Optionally, after the 3rd mast has taken half the hits necessary to make it fall (round up), the last top mast falls. The ship loses 2 hexes of speed in all dir.
. . . . . . 4] When the 3rd mast falls it loses all speed & ability to turn. Elite crews might still be able to turn by rigging a jury rig mast and sail, they must plot it 1 turn ahead.
. . . . . . 5] Ships still can't use full-sails after a mast falls. Also, if full sails are set, the 1st mast falls with 2/3 (rounded to nearest) of the normally X'd out rigging boxes. If this happens all the remaining boxes of the 1st mast are X'd out.

. . . B] A more complicated and maybe better rule, but is it worth it?
. . . . . . 1] When the 1st masts falls the speed is reduced 1 in dir. A & B, but it keeps its free 60 deg. turn; but in dir. C its speed is still 1 hex per turn, and instead, it loses its free 60 deg. turn. It would be good to let a SOL in a line of SOL going in dir. C to still move to keep up and instead lose that free turn. The ships are slowed in the other directions.
. . . . . . 2] When the 2nd mast falls it loses 1 hex of speed in all directions and loses its free turn in all dir. , but so long as any part of a mast stands a ship can always turn to a direction in which it can move. This is all of its speed in dir. C, half of its speed and free turn in dir. B, and a third of it speed and free turn in dir. A. It can use its last mast to turn in dir. C to A, but not move. After it turns to dir. A, it can move that direction.
. . . . . . 3] Optionally, after the 3rd mast has taken half the hits necessary to make it fall, the last top mast falls. The ship loses 2 hexes of speed in all dir. It has already lost all free turns.
. . . . . . 4] When the 3rd mast falls it loses all speed & ability to turn. Elite crews might still be able to use the free turn by rigging a jury rig mast and sail.
. . . . . . 5] Ships still can't use full-sails after a mast falls. Also, if full sails are set, the 1st mast falls with 2/3 (rounded to nearest) of the normally X'd out rigging boxes. If this happens all the remaining boxes of the 1st mast are X'd out.

. . . C] My other new effects of damage
. . . . . . 1] Losing a crew section to causalities [or to a boarding party, etc.] should not effect gunfire accuracy.
. . . . . . . . . a] It should effect the rate of reloading.
. . . . . . . . . b] Each section not reloading guns increases the loading time by 1 turn. Exception: loading double shot with 1 less section still takes 2 turns. Each of these effects are really a half turn longer.
. . . . . . 2] Players don't choose what gun type to X-out.
. . . . . . . . . a] The/a carronade is X'd only if there are 3+ gun hits in the same turn, unless the ship has just carronades left.
. . . . . . . . . b] Carronades can be loaded with different ammo, like grape; and can be fired separately from the guns using a different CRT.
. . . . There will be other new effects.

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Gerald Todd
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Generally speaking, you're dealing with a ship-rigged vessel; that is; three masts and a bowsprit with square sails on all three masts, and under the bowsprit.

All of this is a balancing act, especially when sailing on the wind - close hauled. IF you want to make things more "real" then you should take into account where the rigging damage is; bowsprit, fore, main, or mizzen. Damage should be taken first from the "mast" closest to the where the fire is coming, and then, in each section moving away, then back around, etc etc. Let's say half the hits must come from the closest section, then 1 by 1 in each section moving away; ie 8 rigging hits at the stern would have 4 hits on the mizzen, then 1 on the main, 1 on the fore, 1 on the bowsprit, and the last back on the mizzen. When the firer isn't shooting at bow or stern, but from alongside - then the main mast is the target and you work forward, or aft, or let the firing ship decide what direction overflow hits should go in; ie main, mizzen, bow, fore...or main, fore, bow, mizzen...etc

The error you are making is equating rigging sections to masts, and that's not what they represent in how the rules work. I know they say they do - but they don't. Each rigging section is a movement point under battle sails in attitude A - from which all the ships movement is derived. You start marking out hits at one end and work toward the other and at intervals you have marked of a section and lost that movement point. If you want rigging sections to represent masts, then you have to do something like I described above, which is a house rule in my games. My games use the field of fire chart to also determine which "mast" is hit based on where the firing ship is.

Otherwise the effects of rigging damage remain unchanged. You don't really know what mast may fall first or next.

BTW: when a ship was incapable of getting along with the rest of the fleet, they had these things called FRIGATES that would tow them, or enemy ships would snatch them up, or they would drift off and try to jury rig something. There ARE repair AND towing rules in WS&IM.

BTW#2: This wheel's already been invented; get a copy of Close Action from ebay, it even includes crew morale.
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Steve
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Sgt. Todd,

I realize that it would be nice to make different masts falling have different effects. For now, I think it is too complicated.

I disagree the each rigging section represents 1 hex of movement in dir. A.
. . 1] Frigates move 4 in dir. A. SOLs move 5 with full-sails. Both of these negate your proposed 1 section = 1 hex of speed.
. . 2] As I said, ships had 2/3 of their motive power after the 1st mast fell and in dir. C this would round to 1, not to zero. Losing motive power is NOT additive/subtractive; instead it is fractional, with the added complication that as the ship slows it takes less power to keep it going (the water resistance increases as speed increases).
. . 3] Yes, most ships really had 4 masts if you count the bowsprit.
. . 4] Why need we think that the X'ing out of a rigging section is equal to a full mast? Sometimes it could be just a Topmast that falls.
. . 5] Ships might better have 4 rigging sections. {Edit to add -- The 1st one would be for their free turn. Fast ships would need 5.}

Distributing the rigging hits among the rigging sections would delay the "falling of the 1st mast", but then additional masts would fall sooner after that. This has a similar effect to my rule. That is, ships can keep up with their fleet in dir. C longer. In original WS&IM each rigging section should have been larger than the one after it, like you said some rigging damage would be on all the sections before any reached the critical point. This would be easy to do just move 1, 2, or 3 boxes from the 3rd section to the 1st, depending on the size of the ship.

Other ships can't tow a ship until it is out of the line.

BTW -- How do you feel about a player tying all of his ships together just before the firing starts. Then ships will not drift out of the line and crew can be transferred between ships freely. In 1st Ed. rules.

 
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As he said, get Close Action.

It is what you are seeking to do here.

Close Action is the pinnacle of Age of Sail games for true grognard.
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    As a yacht racer I love to hear people talk about tall ships being "close hauled". Truth be told most of them struggled to get 30 degrees up (i.e., 60 degrees off the wind, or exactly what Wooden Ships & Iron Men allows) and they made very bad time doing it. Modern yachts can get within about 30 degrees, the Benneteau Freyer 50 I raced on could dig up to about 27, but you don't want to push it because in real life the wind wiggles a bit and you end up dumping lift when it goes against you. You're pointing in the right direction, but you don't move. This upwind motion is generated with triangular sails and a deep keel, each pressing marginally backwards against their medium and the keel forces the boat to not give way leeward.

    All the ships we're talking about here made their uphill progress the same way -- each had triangular sails as well that strung between the masts (and generally gaff rigs on the mizzen.) That's how they moved 30 degrees up, and that was on a day with predictable winds. Their mains were furled for upwind movement, and often for movement of any sort if they were near hazards or had more wind than they could handle.



    In battle, these ships had to deal with the realities of approach. If your opposing fleet was upwind you dealt with them running the show. If you had a leeward shore you dealt with both. You weren't going to get above them, and that comes into your fight-or-flight decision.

    If your opposing fleet is downwind, you press your advantage, but you preserve it at all costs. As often as not that means lining up along your opponent's line and firing away. In theory you can nose down on occasion to tee up a shot, something your downwind opponent does at their extreme peril. And (in theory) you could pick your individual opponents if you have time, but in reality no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. You end up matched with who's across from you and hope they're smaller than you.

    In the occasional battle like Trafalgar you have two lines on opposite downwind bearings and there's the opportunity for ships to cross, providing one side is comfortable with the possibility of gybing in the midst of the enemy or simply sailing away from the battle. Nelson was well aware that if things had gone wrong, or if the result had even been a tie he would be hanged for his choice of maneuver, but he had the luck of a positive result and an untimely death. This time when he declared his injury to be the end of him (I believe his third) he was right.

             S.


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Steve
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Sagrilarus wrote:
All the ships we're talking about here made their uphill progress the same way -- each had triangular sails as well that strung between the masts (and generally gaff rigs on the mizzen.) That's how they moved 30 degrees up, and that was on a day with predictable winds. Their mains were furled for upwind movement, and often for movement of any sort if they were near hazards or had more wind than they could handle.

Adm. Mahon said that SOL fought under close hauled topsails. As I'm sure you know, a square sail with a yard on the bottom can be curved to act much like a "staysail". I think most of those staysails behind the foremast were developed after 1815. But, I could be wrong.

BTW let me take this chance to point out something that I realized after the original post. If a fleet was sailing close hauled and was about to be engaged, it would make sense for them to reduce sail a little. Now when ships took some rigging damage they could spread more canvas on the yards they still had left to keep up their position in the line of battle.

I suppose that whenever a "mast falls" it would be good time to check to see if a "critical hit" had resulted. Like, "The mast falls over the port side, creating drag that will turn the ship 60 deg. to port in the next turn and consume 1 MP of speed too, so plot it as L0X next turn."
 
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Steve1501 wrote:

I suppose that whenever a "mast falls" it would be good time to check to see if a "critical hit" had resulted. Like, "The mast falls over the port side, creating drag that will turn the ship 60 deg. to port in the next turn and consume 1 MP of speed too, so plot it as L0X next turn."


    I'm concerned your design is becoming "unfun" when you start considering such things.
 
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Steve
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Sagrilarus wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:

I suppose that whenever a "mast falls" it would be good time to check to see if a "critical hit" had resulted. Like, "The mast falls over the port side, creating drag that will turn the ship 60 deg. to port in the next turn and consume 1 MP of speed too, so plot it as L0X next turn."


    I'm concerned your design is becoming "unfun" when you start considering such things.

I'll take that to heart. Optional at most.
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Gerald Todd
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What I put forward was "too complicated?"

Sorry, but the wheel's already been invented, I really don't see a need to do it again.
 
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Steve
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SgtTodd wrote:
What I put forward was "too complicated?"

The accumulation of the damage was not what is "too complicated". What are complicated is the different effects of each different mast falling and even what combination of 2 has fallen.

SgtTodd wrote:
Sorry, but the wheel's already been invented, I really don't see a need to do it again.

I live in Thailand. Do you realize the cost of shipping to Thailand? And the waiting time? I have a very limited income right now, maybe in a year, or so, things will ease up some.
 
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