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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Is there any point in even trying OP, if you don't have Gobby or Tsarina? rss

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Kent Bunn
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They seem to be the "in" cards, and pretty much steamrolled in the event I went to last night. At this point, I'm wondering if the game is just broken, unless you want to spend the kind of money necessary to get those ultra-rares. And if that's the case, I'm not sure why I would want to keep playing it.
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Herb Leist

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They are definitely beatable. I take it as a challenge. I would rather not take them and win, so much more satisfying. The people I play with choose not to use them mainly because they basically force you to play the same way every game, which gets old.

We currently use the cube draft exclusively as it provides a greater challenge in building a team from an average of 2 dice per character. So far it has lead to some pretty fun games.
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Kevin Warrender
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I wouldn't call it "pointless", since there are participation prizes and always the potential for winning the fellowship prize.

But yeah, draft formats provide a good alternative if the organizer/group is open to it.

Then, of course, there is always the opportunity of banning cards. Some organizers may make the move just to make sure people (like yourself) will keep coming.

I would just talk about it with the organizer / group and see what they say. Some may feel the same way.

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Brandon M
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I played in one OP event (constructed hybrid) and played one hobby deck. I lost our match very quickly (20-0) but we played a rematched and I won 14-0.

So it isn't impossible, but a series of bad draws/rolls will leave you high and dry. You must get your defense mounted early and maintain it.
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ducimus
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I use four of the two cost torch. He is fast and on most of his faces he will ko tsarina and still be fielded.Hisgaining 1/1 when a character is fielded lets you spin as well without it being too bad. Combined with a few other cheap cards you can get set up for a big push of 4/4 torches or ride it out to field cards.These two cards are tough to counter though so it takes a lot of tweaking.He also does sidekick control long enough to get out the captain to hammer a sidekick horde.
 
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Kevin Marema
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We have players that don't use any SRs in our local OP events and a couple are still very successful. One player regularly takes top 3 in every event, so I would say it's definitely possible, you just need to know how your characters work and how best to use them against the Gobby and Tsarina decks.

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J. H. Horatio
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I've mentioned this numerous times, but many many OP events are purely draft only formats. Obviously in a format like this it doesn't matter in the slightest what you own - you'll get what you get, create a team and play with that. So yes there is lots point to playing in OP events without the superrares. If your store is doing constructed only I would highly recommend letting them know that you'd prefer a Rainbow Draft. However, if they can't find the boosters enough to support it, ask if they can at least allow opponents to veto characters on each other's constructed teams. So, bring 10 and you get 2 vetos or something of that nature. That tends to counteract some of the sameyness of constructed tourneys, even then they're still pretty boring in my opinion.
 
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Steve Cates
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I've gone undefeated in two constructed tournaments now one with 7 players and one with 17. I don't have Gobby or Tsarina. So yeah, it's not a lost cause.
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Nicholas P.
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ironcates wrote:
I've gone undefeated in two constructed tournaments now one with 7 players and one with 17. I don't have Gobby or Tsarina. So yeah, it's not a lost cause.

So I am absolutely not proud of how much I've played this game, but this is the conclusion I've come to about the current set:

A person who has SRs can completely crush someone who doesn't have them and hasn't played against them.

A person without SRs can crush a person with SRs that has not practiced against the anti-SR strategies.

A person who has practiced their SRs well can get a higher than 50% win rate against a practiced person without SRs.

So here's why: A person with SRs needs Mr. Fantastic/Pheonix's global to deal with a knowledgeable opponent to deal with Beast #666. HOWEVER, the player running #666 is probably running Mr. Fantastic because that's really the only way you can get good value off the card. The problem is, while a Beast #666 deck NEEDS Mr. Fantastic to beat most other decks, a Gobby/Tsarina deck will only need Mr. Fantastic to beat a #666 deck. That means SR decks just don't have to run Mr. Fantastic at all and are able to include cards that specifically beat the one lineup that can survive the basic SR facerush.

Because it takes such a specific combination of cards to beat super rares without using super rares, super rare decks can rely on the idea that the only decks that can beat them will have cards that can be used against them.
 
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Mister Aranico

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The cards to beat those SR's are in the commons, uncommons and rares. I would start looking at options that harm your opponent for moves they make; for example Tsarina can be countered by Beast Genetic Expert if played right. The cards are there it's just finding the right combination to play your game while forcing your opponent off theirs.
 
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Greg Byrd
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This is a great discussion. In the above examples, is Rally in the mix as well?
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C. E. Freeman
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mynameisthis wrote:
ironcates wrote:
I've gone undefeated in two constructed tournaments now one with 7 players and one with 17. I don't have Gobby or Tsarina. So yeah, it's not a lost cause.

So I am absolutely not proud of how much I've played this game, but this is the conclusion I've come to about the current set:

A person who has SRs can completely crush someone who doesn't have them and hasn't played against them.



Agree, this is as I would expect and not a sign of imbalance.


mynameisthis wrote:
A person without SRs can crush a person with SRs that has not practiced against the anti-SR strategies.



Agree, this is as I would expect and not a sign of imbalance.


mynameisthis wrote:
A person who has practiced their SRs well can get a higher than 50% win rate against a practiced person without SRs.


This is possible, it is also possible to go the opposite way. Here we are talking about player skill. One player will usually have an edge based on deck/team builds, this applies to all ccg/constructed type games. When that's the case you need to rely on your skill to overcome your opponent. The wild card is luck of the draw/roll.

mynameisthis wrote:
So here's why: A person with SRs needs Mr. Fantastic/Pheonix's global to deal with a knowledgeable opponent to deal with Beast #666. HOWEVER, the player running #666 is probably running Mr. Fantastic because that's really the only way you can get good value off the card. The problem is, while a Beast #666 deck NEEDS Mr. Fantastic to beat most other decks, a Gobby/Tsarina deck will only need Mr. Fantastic to beat a #666 deck. That means SR decks just don't have to run Mr. Fantastic at all and are able to include cards that specifically beat the one lineup that can survive the basic SR facerush.

Because it takes such a specific combination of cards to beat super rares without using super rares, super rare decks can rely on the idea that the only decks that can beat them will have cards that can be used against them.


Beast: 666 is in all ways save one superior to Beast: Genetic Expert, when facing off against Tsarina and Gobby. When I play against T & G and I'm using Beast:GE my opponents usually quit buying Tsarina, which is quite disappointing as those exchanges usually end in my favor. If I am expecting a T & G rich environment I always bring Genetic Expert, even when not facing off against T & G he is good, just not as good as Beast: 666.

You are correct about Mr. Fantastic and his global, but I always bring Distraction to pull my Beast back if I need to. I have access to more mask than the T & G player does. It is rare if you are able to force one of my characters to attack if I don't want him to.

I will bring cards that help my opponent, that is the nature of globals after all. I will not bring cards that help my opponent more than they help me, unless I miscalculated of course, but then I deserve to lose.
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Kent Bunn
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hleist wrote:
We currently use the cube draft exclusively as it provides a greater challenge in building a team from an average of 2 dice per character. So far it has lead to some pretty fun games.


At least the event I went to, it was following the rules as laid out by WK. "Bring 4 cards, with up to 3 dice each from home, and then build a deck with what you brought, and cards from the packs you opened". And several people brought the same 2 cards to build around, since they seem to be a working strategy all by themselves. You don't have to count on getting anything in particular out of the packs you open, to have a strategy that will succeed.
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Brook Gentlestream
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In the Month 1 OP, my friend did very well using only my duplicate cards and no super rares. He did better than me, which was enough to win him a Thor card, which he then kindly donated to my collection.

Next OP, I'm giving him first pick of cards and super rares if he wants them.

 
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Kent Bunn
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lordrahvin wrote:

In the Month 1 OP, my friend did very well using only my duplicate cards and no super rares. He did better than me, which was enough to win him a Thor card, which he then kindly donated to my collection.

Next OP, I'm giving him first pick of cards and super rares if he wants them.



Did either of you go up against a Gobby or Tsarina (or both) deck? Granted, I'm still learning how best to play effectively with what I have, but I lost all 3 rounds 0-2 on Wed, and most of them weren't even close.
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Brook Gentlestream
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KBunn wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:

In the Month 1 OP, my friend did very well using only my duplicate cards and no super rares. He did better than me, which was enough to win him a Thor card, which he then kindly donated to my collection.

Next OP, I'm giving him first pick of cards and super rares if he wants them.



Did either of you go up against a Gobby or Tsarina (or both) deck? Granted, I'm still learning how best to play effectively with what I have, but I lost all 3 rounds 0-2 on Wed, and most of them weren't even close.


I didn't much. I came across people who had just started playing mostly, and I got to show them Tsarina and all my rare cards. I got clocked hard by a Johny Storm deck that was using Tsarinas, but it didn't have a Gobby.

My friend went against the other half, he faced almost nothing but Gobby decks. He was using a Johny Storm deck himself, and I gave him a few tips based on the opponents I had fought using similiar decks, but didn't have a Gobby. When he won, he barely scrapped by, but he won a couple more games than I did.

I'm really impressed by how he did, considering he just made his deck 10 minutes before the tournament using whatever cards and dice I had left over after making my deck. Although its embarrassing that he beat me 2-0, he did so just after lunch, during which I had told him all the tricks I had seen opponents using with a deck similar to his. If I had known I would be his next opponent, I might have waited a bit.
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J. H. Horatio
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Tacullu64 wrote:
One player will usually have an edge based on deck/team builds, this applies to all ccg/constructed type games.


Yes, but this is not really like other ccgs. The relative size card pool, as well as the full set of optimal viable strategies, is very very small. Let's face it guys, there are no team "builds" in this game, there is 1 singular optimal team build and then another singular team build designed to defeat that optimal build. And sad to say, these two archetypes can overlap each other as many as 4 cards. And it's only getting worse with Rally.

It's all well and good that we've optimized the game at this point, and I do believe that was time well spent. But perhaps can we move on from this? There's literally nothing left to be said on the topic of teambuilding. We solved it. Rubik's cube complete. The "I always do this" or "I always do that" discussion is tedious because that is in fact what everyone always does at this point.

As much as the rulebook talks about pre-selecting a team, the designers of this game, Mike Elliot in particular, will tell you that it was intended as a sandbox game, with drafted teams in a randomized environment. Many of the characters in this game make you scratch your head and say, "why would I take this guy over that guy? What's the point?" That makes sense if you are choosing from a binder full of cards, but when that's the guy you draft, you need to make him work on your team.

I realize that drafted and constructed play are different skill sets, but I would argue that there is no more skill necessary in the constructed arena. You're playing a specifically created, stagnant scenario where one predetermined team fights another. May as well just play chess at that point. There's not even really a bad draw effect to overcome either, since all your resources are available to you from thei outset. To me, the only game left here, is if you can win at an above average rate given a randomized team.

I know Magic players will claim that they do drafts as well, but in MDM, with only about 140 cards TOTAL to pick from, impromptu team creation that captures that full scope of MDM is orders of magnitude more accessible and realistic.

We are locked into this mindset that this game somehow allows for the same kind of deck-theory as a game like Netrunner when it really does not.
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Kent Bunn
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jhoratio wrote:
As much as the rulebook talks about pre-selecting a team, the designers of this game, Mike Elliot in particular, will tell you that it was intended as a sandbox game, with drafted teams in a randomized environment.


It's all well and good to say that's the intent of the game. But the "official" OP rules that stores (at least the one I went to) are working off of, aren't set up for that format.

To quote the rules sheet:
"The suggested format for the Month One Event is a $9.90 Standard
Semi-constructed event. Each player brings 4 character cards, each
with 3 dice. Players also bring basic action cards, basic action dice,
and some means of tracking their life. They then buy $9.90 worth of
packs at the tournament (10 packs). "

That seems like a format that T&S will be extremely dominant in.
 
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ICE 0ne
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The month 2 constructed OP I went to had literally everyone running Tsarina and half of those running Gobby as well. For month 3, they are banning super rares. I am very much looking forward to it now that there will be more variation on teams.
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J. H. Horatio
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KBunn wrote:
To quote the rules sheet:
"The suggested format for the Month One Event is a $9.90 Standard
Semi-constructed event. Each player brings 4 character cards, each
with 3 dice. Players also bring basic action cards, basic action dice,
and some means of tracking their life. They then buy $9.90 worth of
packs at the tournament (10 packs). "


Ugh. Yes of course T&G would be dominant here. And they are. That's why WizKids UPDATED the suggested tourney draft format by releasing the Rainbow Draft format. Yes stores can still do whatever they want, but WizKids stated that they felt Rainbow would be the preferred format.

Semi-constructed OP events are a total waste of time. I've been to a few and I'm not sure I've seen more than 10 total dice purchased from the drafted cards. Draft has to be all or nothing. Which, again, is why WizKids created the Rainbow Draft format.
 
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J. H. Horatio
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ICE 0ne wrote:
For month 3, they are banning super rares. I am very much looking forward to it now that there will be more variation on teams.


Well this is unfortunate. To me that is a lazy response to the issue. In a rainbow draft setting its difficult to compile the quantity of dice you need to make a Gobby or Tsarina strategy work. Even if you can grab a lucky Gobby in a Rainbow draft, getting more than 2 dice for him can be difficult. Obviously, this limits his effectiveness.
 
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Steve Cates
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KBunn wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:

In the Month 1 OP, my friend did very well using only my duplicate cards and no super rares. He did better than me, which was enough to win him a Thor card, which he then kindly donated to my collection.

Next OP, I'm giving him first pick of cards and super rares if he wants them.



Did either of you go up against a Gobby or Tsarina (or both) deck? Granted, I'm still learning how best to play effectively with what I have, but I lost all 3 rounds 0-2 on Wed, and most of them weren't even close.

I beat a gobby tsarina deck with a combination of Beast 666 and Angel Soaring. I forced sidekicks to attack and I would let many of them through and take the damage. This sullies your opponents draw in the early game so you can get your blockers up 4 beasts that can be spun down and gaining draw help a lot. I would only attack with unblockable Angel Soaring with power bolt back up for 5 damage per turn average many times.

Another method I've beat Gobby with which I'm sure would be pretty effective against Tsarina is Doctor Doom and Venom Angelo Fortunado with Silver Surfer and Norman Osborn to rush to Venom. The perfect roll on turn one is two sidekicks and a bolt. You field both sidekicks and then use Norman Osborn's global to knock them both out. Turn two roll six dice and buy Venom. If you can keep Venom active, this completely shuts down Gobby. Doctor Doom is another possibility if you don't get a great roll turn one but get at least a shield to use silver surfers ability.

Venom's global is a boost against Tsarina, not much but it's something. If you get both Venom and DD fielded, you have a huge advantage. -3 -3 to non-fist and -1 -1 to fist is killer. Don't bring Mr. Fantastic or Phoenix in this deck but bring Distraction. You want to keep Venom and DD fielded.
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J. H. Horatio
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ironcates wrote:
The perfect roll on turn one is two sidekicks and a bolt


Not to be Captain von Well Actually, but the perfect turn 1 roll is SK, SK, bolt, shield. Do the Norman Osborne thing, then ALSO use Surfer global. You'll have 3 SKs in prep. You'll roll 7 dice on turn 2. Buy Cyclops ILCK, or any world beating 7 cost, and he will be in your bag for a potential roll on turn 3, guaranteed to roll by turn 4. This is a fun thing to pull off.

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Steve Cates
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jhoratio wrote:
ironcates wrote:
The perfect roll on turn one is two sidekicks and a bolt


Not to be Captain von Well Actually, but the perfect turn 1 roll is SK, SK, bolt, shield. Do the Norman Osborne thing, then ALSO use Surfer global. You'll have 3 SKs in prep. You'll roll 7 dice on turn 2. Buy Cyclops ILCK, or any world beating 7 cost, and he will be in your bag for a potential roll on turn 3, guaranteed to roll by turn 4. This is a fun thing to pull off.


True, I've run ILCK too but not in this deck. That perfect roll is hard to get. I test rolled dice 100 times and was able to get 6 25% of the time. The 7 was at 11%. 5 was up to 80%.
 
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J. H. Horatio
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ironcates wrote:
jhoratio wrote:
ironcates wrote:
The perfect roll on turn one is two sidekicks and a bolt


Not to be Captain von Well Actually, but the perfect turn 1 roll is SK, SK, bolt, shield. Do the Norman Osborne thing, then ALSO use Surfer global. You'll have 3 SKs in prep. You'll roll 7 dice on turn 2. Buy Cyclops ILCK, or any world beating 7 cost, and he will be in your bag for a potential roll on turn 3, guaranteed to roll by turn 4. This is a fun thing to pull off.


True, I've run ILCK too but not in this deck. That perfect roll is hard to get. I test rolled dice 100 times and was able to get 6 25% of the time. The 7 was at 11%. 5 was up to 80%.


Obviously it's not common. That's why its called "perfect". If it happened all the time, it wouldn't be called perfect, it'd be called "this game is dumb."
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