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Subject: What happened to these design concepts? rss

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Sodoff Baldrick
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From Andrew Parks Designer Diary

"Another early discussion involved firing arcs. Since the Starter Set included the Enterprise-D, we knew that we could not simply have 90˚ forward firing arcs on every ship. While many ships would have traditional 90˚ forward firing arcs, the Enterprise-D would need to have the ability to fire 360˚ while still remaining a balanced ship, so we gave the ship the option to fire in any direction at a more limited range and with one less attack die."

"As the months progressed, we created many expansions for Attack Wing, carrying us all the way through to March 2014 in the release schedule. This has allowed us to mix and match expansions ranging from the first Gen Con release all the way out to Wave 4, which allowed us to look for broken combinations throughout the release arc."

"We decided that the capital ships in Attack Wing would need to have higher Primary Weapon Values (3-5) and lower Agility Values (1-2) than smaller ships."

"if you could damage an opponent's shields sufficiently, you could then lower your own shields and board the enemy ship in order to take out some of its crew members."




These are words directly from Parks. They make me wonder at what point did they decide abandon these concepts. The idea of balancing the 360 attack by taking away an attack die, seems to have gone out the window.

Also how hard were they looking for "broken combos"? Even by wave 4, quite a few broken combos were apparent to much of the community.

What happened to 3-5 attack dice. Now we have several ships with 6 dice that are capable of one shot kills on all of the smaller ships. They can even consistently one shot all but 3 ships with the right upgrades.

More and more of the so called "ganker" cards car be used regardless of shilds or cloaking. Thus making earlier similar cards impractical the point of useless.

This is a small excerpt from the Design Diary. However Parks seemed to emphasize that these were important concepts at one time. So why the move away from them? Was Parks the "design conscious" or did they just not think for the long run?

Thought?


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Lee Long
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The game breaks as soon as you mix faction upgrades in my opinion. Don't do it, it's bad and completely de-flavours the game as well.
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Andrew Frazier
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What happened?

They made enough money to think longer term and included a new designer. And it is immediately apparent to me, an aspiring game designer, that game designs outgrow/expand beyond the designer's original conception not long after beginning the process. Also, just like in big budget movies, sequels often leave behind the original's feel and scope. I can think of many sequels where the overall scope is expanded to be more epic (The Matrix). In this game, once the business majors at Wizkids gave the go ahead, it was expanded to be more epic (Borg!). It would be pretty difficult to keep the game selling with the number of reasonably different permutations using the originally intented stats described by Andrew Parks.
Also remember that everything... everything about this game is interpretive from fictional canon. Combine that with a highly customizable game like STAW and you have a constantly mutating (in a good way) entity that will not stop until Wizkids decides to stop producing expansions.
While the design diary exerpts are noteworthy, first and foremost the game is designed to make money. Fluid things like theme will give way to the Almighty Dollar every time. And if it doesnt, then the game will probably fizzle out and die.

Off soap box
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Steve Smith
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Chris Guild took over from Andrew and I'm guessing by the way he is designing the Borg that Chris is an apex power-gamer and ultimate Borg fan with absolutely zero thought to or understanding of game balance whatsoever.

Check out the crew from the upcoming Scout Cube, 2nd of 5 is a 3-point ganker who goes through shields and cloak at range 1-2 and discards any upgrade, so a 3 point card can take out a 10 point upgrade.

The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.

The game went in a completely different direction when Andrew left.





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Sodoff Baldrick
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GuruForge wrote:

It would be pretty difficult to keep the game selling with the number of reasonably different permutations using the originally intented stats described by Andrew Parks.


I tend to disagree with this assessment. I do not play X-Wing, but I have alot of friends that do and I have watched many a match at the local game store. That game still sells strong, stronger in some cases, and has deviated very little from the original design concepts. Even the introduction of large base ship, like the Falcon did not turn the meta table over. The capital ships introduced new rules, but from my understanding thay are special scenario only.
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Daniel van de Laar
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Chris Guild took over from Andrew and I'm guessing by the way he is designing the Borg that Chris is an apex power-gamer and ultimate Borg fan with absolutely zero thought to or understanding of game balance whatsoever.

Check out the crew from the upcoming Scout Cube, 2nd of 5 is a 3-point ganker who goes through shields and cloak at range 1-2 and discards any upgrade, so a 3 point card can take out a 10 point upgrade.

The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.

The game went in a completely different direction when Andrew left.


Don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel.

(edit: I kid, of course)
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J Lin
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Chris Guild took over from Andrew and I'm guessing by the way he is designing the Borg that Chris is an apex power-gamer and ultimate Borg fan with absolutely zero thought to or understanding of game balance whatsoever.

Check out the crew from the upcoming Scout Cube, 2nd of 5 is a 3-point ganker who goes through shields and cloak at range 1-2 and discards any upgrade, so a 3 point card can take out a 10 point upgrade.

The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.

The game went in a completely different direction when Andrew left.


Although it is true that the new Borg stuff coming out IS powerful, it's hard to quite say what exactly is or is not going on with the whole meta-game as a whole until we see a couple more waves. Since we are getting some bigger ships coming out the line, the Borg ships being powerful might not be as big an issue when the other 'big ships' for the various factions come out.

IE: The Jem'Hadar battleship is another big burly ship with stats comparable to the cube, with a slightly higher skill curve. So we might yet see comparable effects coming out from the other factions to counter act some of the things coming from the Borg.

So Borg might be big easy to move ships with ganking effects, but Federation players might start playing with things that start negating these effects (like some sort of remodulated shield, for example).
 
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Thomas Landy
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SeijiTataki wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Chris Guild took over from Andrew and I'm guessing by the way he is designing the Borg that Chris is an apex power-gamer and ultimate Borg fan with absolutely zero thought to or understanding of game balance whatsoever.

Check out the crew from the upcoming Scout Cube, 2nd of 5 is a 3-point ganker who goes through shields and cloak at range 1-2 and discards any upgrade, so a 3 point card can take out a 10 point upgrade.

The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.

The game went in a completely different direction when Andrew left.


Although it is true that the new Borg stuff coming out IS powerful, it's hard to quite say what exactly is or is not going on with the whole meta-game as a whole until we see a couple more waves. Since we are getting some bigger ships coming out the line, the Borg ships being powerful might not be as big an issue when the other 'big ships' for the various factions come out.

IE: The Jem'Hadar battleship is another big burly ship with stats comparable to the cube, with a slightly higher skill curve. So we might yet see comparable effects coming out from the other factions to counter act some of the things coming from the Borg.

So Borg might be big easy to move ships with ganking effects, but Federation players might start playing with things that start negating these effects (like some sort of remodulated shield, for example).


No it's not hard to say. It's pretty clear -- smaller ships are becoming practically useless because the big guns are so big now that they don't have any hope in hell in taking them down.

When Attack Wing was announced, everyone loved it because there was more customization freedom than say, X-Wing, but I feared that this could ultimately throw game balance in disarray -- and my fears are coming true. Not only is so much customization difficult to test thoroughly, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of testing going on PERIOD.

And you'd think WK would want to do something about this because this game is selling very well, but they really don't seem to care. They don't have much support at all in regards rules and now we have to wait 3-4 weeks at a pop for clarifications.

Pretty soon people will just get fed up and stop playing this game.
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Have any of you any recollection of TNG's 'Q Who' and 'The Best of Both Worlds' episodes?

Those were the Borg we see in Attack Wing.
Nightmarish. Indifferent. Adaptable. And most usally: unstoppable.

Back then, 'Resistance is futile' wasn't just a marketing scheme. It was the most frightening truth. Most of the time, anyway.

That's how the Borg are supposed to be - (IMHO at least).

Not like those cyborg zombies from VOY.

Again, OMHO, the design mistake made, was to allow the early TNG-Borg as a playable faction instead of making them a scenario / OP exklusive villain to be defeated in a co-op style of game (which would totally be in the spirit of Star Trek by the way!).

Those Early-TNG-Borg had to break the game balance in order to depict them their on-screen counterparts spot on.

Just my 2 eurocents, anyway.
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Steve Smith
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SeijiTataki wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Chris Guild took over from Andrew and I'm guessing by the way he is designing the Borg that Chris is an apex power-gamer and ultimate Borg fan with absolutely zero thought to or understanding of game balance whatsoever.

Check out the crew from the upcoming Scout Cube, 2nd of 5 is a 3-point ganker who goes through shields and cloak at range 1-2 and discards any upgrade, so a 3 point card can take out a 10 point upgrade.

The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.

The game went in a completely different direction when Andrew left.


Although it is true that the new Borg stuff coming out IS powerful, it's hard to quite say what exactly is or is not going on with the whole meta-game as a whole until we see a couple more waves. Since we are getting some bigger ships coming out the line, the Borg ships being powerful might not be as big an issue when the other 'big ships' for the various factions come out.

IE: The Jem'Hadar battleship is another big burly ship with stats comparable to the cube, with a slightly higher skill curve. So we might yet see comparable effects coming out from the other factions to counter act some of the things coming from the Borg.

So Borg might be big easy to move ships with ganking effects, but Federation players might start playing with things that start negating these effects (like some sort of remodulated shield, for example).


The problem with the "power card/counter card" model is that then you are then forced to include all the "counter cards" or you're screwed. Worse, most "counter cards" will be faction-specific, leaving many factions completely without counters. For example, the Feds and Dominion now have Cloaked Mine counters (Navigational thingy/Dumar) but other factions still are helpless.

The better idea is to balance cards. The Dominion Battleship, for example, has similar stats to the Borg Sphere, but only has a 90 firing arc and limited maneuver options. Borg gankers should go through shields but should cost more and be limited to range 1. The Sphere and Cubes should have to do their "spin" after moving.

Minefields could reduce their attack dice by 1 for every successful attack they make against a starship and then be removed when their attack dice reaches zero. That way, a 3 point card isn't destroying entire fleets (which I have seen them do) unless you have the specific "counter card".

I could go on and on. There are plenty of ways to better balance cards and game pieces. It really isn't that difficult.
 
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The best approach, now that the toothpaste is out of the tube, might be upgrades that retroactively enhance the older ships by letting them do their job better in the face of the post-Borg meta.

An inexpensive, non-unique Romulan upgrade that allowed rerolls/conversions on defense dice would be a boon to the Romulan ships, for example, and make them more playable in the current environment. Cloak has pretty much become a sucker's bet in an environment where you can roll a 7-9 primary attack with full reroll/conversion.
 
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SeijiTataki wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Chris Guild took over from Andrew and I'm guessing by the way he is designing the Borg that Chris is an apex power-gamer and ultimate Borg fan with absolutely zero thought to or understanding of game balance whatsoever.

Check out the crew from the upcoming Scout Cube, 2nd of 5 is a 3-point ganker who goes through shields and cloak at range 1-2 and discards any upgrade, so a 3 point card can take out a 10 point upgrade.

The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.

The game went in a completely different direction when Andrew left.


Although it is true that the new Borg stuff coming IS powerful, it's hard to quite say what exactly is or is not going on with the whole meta-game as a whole until we see a couple more waves. Since we are getting some bigger ships coming out the line, the Borg ships being powerful might not be as big an issue when the other 'big ships' for the various factions come out.

IE: The Jem'Hadar battleship is another big burly ship with stats comparable to the cube, with a slightly higher skill curve. So we might yet see comparable effects coming out from the other factions to counter act some of the things coming from the Borg.

So Borg might be big easy to move ships with ganking effects, but Federation players might start playing with things that start negating these effects (like some sort of remodulated shield, for example).


You've made the mistake of using logic. Good luck with that because that's not what they want to hear. They just want to irrationally whine about everything that has to do with Borg, and don't want to hear any dissent. While you are correct, you're just best off letting it go, and enjoy the game. Let them ruin it for themselves by being hyperbolic doomsayers, and don't worry about it.
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Cut_ wrote:
Have any of you any recollection of TNG's 'Q Who' and 'The Best of Both Worlds' episodes?

Those were the Borg we see in Attack Wing.
Nightmarish. Indifferent. Adaptable. And most usally: unstoppable.

Back then, 'Resistance is futile' wasn't just a marketing scheme. It was the most frightening truth. Most of the time, anyway.

That's how the Borg are supposed to be - (IMHO at least).

Not like those cyborg zombies from VOY.

Again, OMHO, the design mistake made, was to allow the early TNG-Borg as a playable faction instead of making them a scenario / OP exklusive villain to be defeated in a co-op style of game (which would totally be in the spirit of Star Trek by the way!).

Those Early-TNG-Borg had to break the game balance in order to depict them their on-screen counterparts spot on.

Just my 2 eurocents, anyway.


A super-powerful OP-exclusive villain that has to be faced in a series of co-op missions? Like the BCT in OP 2 and 3?

Keep in mind, too, that all of the playable Borg are, in fact, the "VOY cyborg zombies." The Sphere, Tactical Cube, Scout Cube, and Diamond were all from Voyager. The Soong was late-TNG, but it doesn't really play like a Borg ship, so if anything, it's the exception that proves the rule.
 
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Ed Miller
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I have to agree they should have left the Borg out of the playable faction options. But I also realize that was never going to happen. To many people for whatever reason want to play them. Most of them however that I have seen tend to be the power gamers.

right now as it stands Borg are generally STAW on easy mode. The game has moved to being more about the cards than the ships. Part of the problem with Borg however is they remove the aspect of having to actually manuever into a good firing position.

We shall see what happenes in the coming waves but I fear it will only get worse and not better. I really want to play my romulans but the small ships which make up most of the fleet just get roasted and they don't have anything that hit natively over a 4. And the ships that do hit for 3 and 4 are on the expensive side.

We shall see how it all plays out. But I don't have a lot of hope that WK can fix anything. mainly cause they don't seem to want to
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Allen Gould
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
so we gave the ship the option to fire in any direction at a more limited range and with one less attack die."


I would say that this is incorrect in practice. Taken at face value, it would imply that the Enterprise would have paid two points for the 360 ability (or, that you didn't get a point of weapons you paid for, and got the ability in exchange). Obviously that's not what the cards show - the 360 firing is the bonus ability for the unique version, and is entirely free from a costing perspective.

Which, when talking about Borg, means that they could have thought about raising the cost two more points to add another attack dice, and decided not to.
 
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H00D4M4N wrote:
No it's not hard to say. It's pretty clear -- smaller ships are becoming practically useless because the big guns are so big now that they don't have any hope in hell in taking them down.


The Borg are darn tough. But I think it is possible to take down a Borg ship with smaller, swarm-type ships. I played two games where I ran three Interceptors and the Akorem (Bajoran Scout) with Nerys, Cyrano Jones, defense-buffing upgrades, and a K'Tinga helpmate that came close to taking a Borg Cube each time. (I know, close ain't good enough.)

If I had swapped out Ransom for Donatra, dropped Follower of Khan, and played a safer opening game, it might have gone differently.
 
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What if a ruling came out after the two Borg OP storylines were completed that Borg can not be used as a playable faction in OP play going forward....?

That to me seems the best of all worlds.

We will have all the Borg ships/upgrades that can be used for casual play going forward (presumably with you being able to tweak points to your taste... super-powerful TNG flavor OR beatable "VOY cyborg zombies"), BUT the OP meta will return to a better Borg-free stable state going forward.

Oh, and we'd still have a splash of Borg in the meta because of the Neutrals that came out... I think we can agree that having just those would not be overpowered.


EDIT: Uh, just saw this has already been suggested: The End Results of Banning Borg from OP
 
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There was a time when I felt that strenuous disagreement would be conducive to the overall health of the game, and then there was a subsequent time when I felt that the discourse couldn't possibly get any weirder or more toxic, so I might as well just roll with it and hope for the best, and now here we are with posts about how Chris secretly intercepted wave 4 once it was out of Andrew's hands and altered the stats as part of some fiendish scheme to rewrite Trek in favor of the Borg, and for once I'm jut completely dumbstruck.

I don't know whether things could have gone differently if more of us had been more conciliatory and less polarizing, but all I can do now is apologize to this crazy trainwreck of a community for everything that I and others have done to contribute to its current state.
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I / my group doesn't play in the OP events and we only have a handful of games under our collective belts so maybe I'm missing something in this discussion but:

- bigger ships should be tougher to kill and sometimes impervious to small ships

- they should be able to kill smaller ships fairly easily and given a wide enough disparity is size/power a one shot kill is not unreasonable

- advanced ships should absolutely be better than older ships else what's the point

- the Borg should be nigh unbeatable unless really ganged up on, that's certainly how they come across in the shows and films.

??


 
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Rallye72 wrote:
I / my group doesn't play in the OP events and we only have a handful of games under our collective belts so maybe I'm missing something in this discussion but:

- bigger ships should be tougher to kill and sometimes impervious to small ships

- they should be able to kill smaller ships fairly easily and given a wide enough disparity is size/power a one shot kill is not unreasonable

- advanced ships should absolutely be better than older ships else what's the point

- the Borg should be nigh unbeatable unless really ganged up on, that's certainly how they come across in the shows and films.

??


What you're missing is that if the Borg are "nigh unbeatable" as you say they "should be", then that's not much fun for fans of any other faction. Should everyone just play Borg from now on?

All OP events will automatically be Borg vs Borg wars as the "meta" is severely restricted to just one faction. Even anti-Borg builds will soon be useless as a new wave of Borg gankers is unleashed in the Scout Cube expansion to take away any upgrades that could have been used against the Borg - even the mighty Federation will soon lose its best assets in defeating the Borg. Second of Five is a 3-point ganker that goes through Cloak and shields to discard your 10-point Transphasic Torpedoes at range 1-2.

Most stores in my area have already banned or severely restricted the Borg from most OP events. Tournament organizers and even Borg fans are stunned at the great imbalance the Borg faction are creating.

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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Rallye72 wrote:
I / my group doesn't play in the OP events and we only have a handful of games under our collective belts so maybe I'm missing something in this discussion but:

- bigger ships should be tougher to kill and sometimes impervious to small ships

- they should be able to kill smaller ships fairly easily and given a wide enough disparity is size/power a one shot kill is not unreasonable

- advanced ships should absolutely be better than older ships else what's the point

- the Borg should be nigh unbeatable unless really ganged up on, that's certainly how they come across in the shows and films.

??


What you're missing is that if the Borg are "nigh unbeatable" as you say they "should be", then that's not much fun for fans of any other faction. Should everyone just play Borg from now on?

All OP events will automatically be Borg vs Borg wars as the "meta" is severely restricted to just one faction. Even anti-Borg builds will soon be useless as a new wave of Borg gankers is unleashed in the Scout Cube expansion to take away any upgrades that could have been used against the Borg - even the mighty Federation will soon lose its best assets in defeating the Borg. Second of Five is a 3-point ganker that goes through Cloak and shields to discard your 10-point Transphasic Torpedoes at range 1-2.

Most stores in my area have already banned or severely restricted the Borg from most OP events. Tournament organizers and even Borg fans are stunned at the great imbalance the Borg faction are creating.



Agreed.

The comments about Fanboy Chris departing from Andrew's original outline with the game notwithstanding, regardless of how scary an element in a work of fiction is, recreating that element completely in a game based on said work to be as scary or as difficult to overcome as it was in the fictional story is poor design. Function > flavor 99 times out of 100, for the reasons you state in this quote.

That said, I don't fault Chris completely for the way the Borg dominate the game now. Much of the blame for that has to rest with Andrew for the creation of an oversimplified point cost system. 2 points per stat, disregarding firing arcs, manuevering dials, and faction flavor was about the dumbest design decision I have ever seen. Sorry, Andrew. You made a great game and in the first 4 months the upgrades carried the flavor enough that the point-scale was forgiveable. But the Borg getting a unique manuever dial it didn't have to pay for along with a no-penalty 360-firing arc put this game on a path of self-destruction.

Where I would agree about Chris' inclinations (though not quite as harshly) is in his design of Borg upgrades. They are just too cheap for what they bring to the game, and when they offer options that are identical to options in other factions but at a cheaper cost, that's when it's clear it's a case of fanboyism.

I don't know what the solution is, but I doubt WK intends to hang onto the license long enough for it to matter anyway. This product line has every indication of being a "cash in quick, cash out quicker" creation.
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Larry DeStefano
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Captain Boris wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Rallye72 wrote:
I / my group doesn't play in the OP events and we only have a handful of games under our collective belts so maybe I'm missing something in this discussion but:

- bigger ships should be tougher to kill and sometimes impervious to small ships

- they should be able to kill smaller ships fairly easily and given a wide enough disparity is size/power a one shot kill is not unreasonable

- advanced ships should absolutely be better than older ships else what's the point

- the Borg should be nigh unbeatable unless really ganged up on, that's certainly how they come across in the shows and films.

??


What you're missing is that if the Borg are "nigh unbeatable" as you say they "should be", then that's not much fun for fans of any other faction. Should everyone just play Borg from now on?

All OP events will automatically be Borg vs Borg wars as the "meta" is severely restricted to just one faction. Even anti-Borg builds will soon be useless as a new wave of Borg gankers is unleashed in the Scout Cube expansion to take away any upgrades that could have been used against the Borg - even the mighty Federation will soon lose its best assets in defeating the Borg. Second of Five is a 3-point ganker that goes through Cloak and shields to discard your 10-point Transphasic Torpedoes at range 1-2.

Most stores in my area have already banned or severely restricted the Borg from most OP events. Tournament organizers and even Borg fans are stunned at the great imbalance the Borg faction are creating.



Agreed.

The comments about Fanboy Chris departing from Andrew's original outline with the game notwithstanding, regardless of how scary an element in a work of fiction is, recreating that element completely in a game based on said work to be as scary or as difficult to overcome as it was in the fictional story is poor design. Function > flavor 99 times out of 100, for the reasons you state in this quote.

That said, I don't fault Chris completely for the way the Borg dominate the game now. Much of the blame for that has to rest with Andrew for the creation of an oversimplified point cost system. 2 points per stat, disregarding firing arcs, manuevering dials, and faction flavor was about the dumbest design decision I have ever seen. Sorry, Andrew. You made a great game and in the first 4 months the upgrades carried the flavor enough that the point-scale was forgiveable. But the Borg getting a unique manuever dial it didn't have to pay for along with a no-penalty 360-firing arc put this game on a path of self-destruction.

Where I would agree about Chris' inclinations (though not quite as harshly) is in his design of Borg upgrades. They are just too cheap for what they bring to the game, and when they offer options that are identical to options in other factions but at a cheaper cost, that's when it's clear it's a case of fanboyism.

I don't know what the solution is, but I doubt WK intends to hang onto the license long enough for it to matter anyway. This product line has every indication of being a "cash in quick, cash out quicker" creation.


Getting the same feeling
 
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Sodoff Baldrick
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The problem of a limited license agreement has worried me as well. Parks said in one of his early interviews that Wizkids had a firm 4 year business model for the game. A Wizkids rep also told Tom Vasel that they "have enough content for like 30 waves".

Given the current release schedule, 3 ships a month for the next 3 years puts us around 36 waves. With maybe a month off here and there, that would put ust right Parks' time table. After that who knows?
 
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To add to the last thought. The fact that they are making new sculps and not just using the tactics molds does give some credit that Wizkids has plans to support for some time. Sculptors and production are not cheap, so there is evidence they are investing in the future of the game.
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Michael Ptak
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Livermore
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:


The game has gone from a fun, out-think-your-opponent, thematic maneuver warfare game to a power-gamers dream of super-powerful uber card combo non-thinking all-Borg dice-off.



Maneuver warfare? It kind of seemed that way in the beginning but some time into the Dominion War OP I realized maneuver was far less important as setting up and/or surviving the Alpha Strike. If you're savvy with the dial you can keep your opponent in your firing cone for the first blast and then you have no more enemy to outmaneuver. Combinations are much much more important here than in X-Wing.

Whereas in X-Wing, maneuver is God, because ships last long enough for it to actually matter.
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