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Subject: So how do we actually feel about The new HB ID? rss

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Jardy koning
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At first blush i loved the idea of this ID ability

It keeps in line with the HB theme of accelerating out huge servers of taxing ice.

If any identity is going to make NEXT ice a thing its this one.

Its synergy with grail ice will probably be extremely potent.

However i recently talked to a player in my local game group and he expressed that the id basically amounts to a cute trick that has some interesting interactions with some B tier strategies.


basically I'm starting to think that while this id could be decent, its probably better to just stick with ETF and call it a day.

Also i am aware that this is just speculation and i wont know for sure till more of the lunar cardpool is released but i would like to know peoples initial impressions and thoughts.

thanks =)
 
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N7teslapunk wrote:
... a cute trick that has some interesting interactions with some B tier strategies.

Wait, you think FFG is strengthening tier B strategies?

BUFF ACCOUNT SIPHON FFG!!!
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Andre Modt
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N7teslapunk wrote:
... a cute trick that has some interesting interactions with some B tier strategies.


Replicating Perfection was a "Tier B" identity not that far ago.
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Andrew Keddie
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Andre Modt wrote:
N7teslapunk wrote:
... a cute trick that has some interesting interactions with some B tier strategies.


Replicating Perfection was a "Tier B" identity not that far ago.


As for Cerebral Imaging - "would rather play with a blank 45/15".
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simon bradford
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Advantages:
Ice is important, especially early game. The id guarantees you lots of ice early on, even with an opening hand of one or two ice. The advantage is that you can get secured efficiently, without having to overfill your deck slots with ice like NEXT Design does.

The opportunity cost of not running ETF means that you'll probably want to run cheaper ice. The NEXT suite of ice compliments this nicely letting you build tough servers for cheap.

It also has the advantage of thinning your deck out. In other words pulling out much of the ice from your R&D early on, means that later on you're more likely to draw agendas/economy/whatever. A double-edged sword in that accesses are more likely score. Also putting the ice into HQ gives HQ a temporary defensive boost too.

One of the problems with the NEXT suite of ice is that if a few pieces of it get trashed with Parasites, the ice can be really unimpressive. With this ID you can Jackson back a few pieces then tutor them up. It'll probably be exhausting to try and trash out this deck.

Finally as long as there's one unrezzed ice on R&D your virtually immune to indexing (Unless they False Echo it!) A somewhat specific benefit, but against certain runners it'll be annoying nonetheless.

Disadvantages:
Your ice suite is probably going to be really boring. Lots of 3x of ice means that once the runner has seen ~6 different pieces of ice, either from accesses or rezzes, they'll know what they have to be afraid of. If you run any big surprise ice, like archer, you'll probably only want it to be a 1-of, since it the runner is extremely unlikely to be surprised by the second.

Even though you can get a lot of ice out early it's all going to be the same. Example: the runner runs R&D hits a NEXT Bronze so they SMC out a Gordian Blade. The ID lets you get another NEXT Bronze, but that's not going to keep the runner out.

Successful ABT's are probably the most devastating agenda scores. This ID is the least likely to pull off such a combo. Fast Adavance is great out of ETF because you can easily pay for the expensive tricks like SanSan and Biotic. If this ID wants to make money it's going to have to play and defend remotes, which is just going to cost more money initially.

The ID also doesn't have the late game crazy expensiveness of Stronger Together. Which they can leverage into scoring big agendas with Ash or Caprice. So what's your late game strategy? What agendas work well with this ID? HB agendas aren't particularly great for rushing out early like AstroScripts are. It seems like this ID gives a great early game at the expense of a mediocre to poor late game.
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Lou Lessing
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If they print enough good NEXT ice, I'd consider it over ETF, but right now, and even with Silver and Mother Goddess spoiled, I think ETF's better in the deck that benefits most from this ID.
 
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Joshua Swaner
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The Foundry with NEXT/Grail will be more than merely 'cute'. And the influence breakdown is super simple: 3 x Jackson and 3 x Midway Station Grid. Cheap as hell but monstrously taxing. Plenty of ways to recur Midway if trashed: Interns, Archived Memories, or Reclamation Order.

Here's the thing, the point of these decks won't necessarily be that you always keep the runner out, because there will be a lot of the same types of ICE on the table. Things will be porous, but they'll cost a lot.
 
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Orbital Tangent wrote:
The Foundry with NEXT/Grail will be more than merely 'cute'. And the influence breakdown is super simple: 3 x Jackson and 3 x Midway Station Grid. Cheap as hell but monstrously taxing. This deck will be a beast.

...And what about the Grail ice? It costs influence.
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Joshua Swaner
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Azgard12 wrote:
...And what about the Grail ice? It costs influence.
Hmm. You're right. Maybe not Grail, then. Or less Midway. Or maybe not Midway at all. It will take some testing, but I really think this identity is GOOD.
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General Norris
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An identity that draw cards every turn you rez ICE? Sign me up!
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Michele Lupo
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It's definitely not just a gimmick. It's a very potente ability with overt and subtle effects. The overt effect is that it greatly increases the number of ice you can install during a game, it has great synergy with most in faction HB ice and grail ice.

The subtle effect is that your draw quality is way higher than normal, since every ice you play removes another from your deck, you'll be drawing more economy and agendas. Of course there is a downside, your RnD becomes more permeable.
 
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João Almeida
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I think this ID is solid. I really like the idea of playing 3x Pop-up Window in the first three turns.
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Germany
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Of which HB ID are you talking about? Can you link the spoiled ID?
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Kevin
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I think it's good, and much like Cerebral Imaging it will be a viable alternative in HB without ever eclipsing the core set identity.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is how well it works with Amazon Industrial Zone. A downside of NEXT ice is that a runner can block some of the synergy by never running some of your servers, which Amazon circumvents. Spending a turn and 5 credits to get two rezzed NEXT pieces or Elis over a central with a rezzed Amazon behind them is pretty damn efficient.

choux wrote:

It seems like this ID gives a great early game at the expense of a mediocre to poor late game.


I completely disagree. Fetching duplicates just makes your servers more expensive, which doesn't affect two big early game costs for the runner - finding the right breakers and getting them installed. But by fetching NEXT ice, you ramp up to expensive servers much faster, which in the right deck could lend itself to late game inevitability for the corp.
The Foundry is also weaker than EtF against the biggest early threat, siphon and siphon trains, for want of magical free credits every turn.
 
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Hannes Sörensson
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loktok wrote:
Of which HB ID are you talking about? Can you link the spoiled ID?

Exactly. When discussing a card, and especially one that hasn't been released yet, always supply the card text somehow!
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Kevin
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From the "The Spaces Between Text Spoilers" thread:

"The Foundry" (HB Identity [Division], 45/15)
The first time you rez a piece of ICE each turn, you may search R&D for another copy of that ICE, reveal it, and add it to HQ. Shuffle R&D.


Keep in mind that this might not actually be correct. Then again, if you can't trust an anonymous internet source dumping illicit spoilers to a card game community in the (presumed) hopes of gaining notoriety and adulation, who can you trust?
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Neil G
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It amuses me that they've designed an ID *much* stronger for playing NEXT ice than the actual NEXT ID. Unfortunately it's still not as good as ETF. NEXT.
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Ony Moose
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I don't know about not being as good as EtF, it lets you search R&D whenever you rez ice.

So, if you score an Accelerated Beta test, if you use a Mutate, or OversightAI/BioroidEfficiency.

If you use cheap ice like Pop-up you can quickly get all of it if you start with 1 copy. You can also quickly get copies of large bioroids in your hand if you rez one, letting you summon them with Howler (even if you then discard the duplicate as HQ is full) as well as retrieve another howler.

Howler and minelayer are going to be powerful when your HQ is flooded with extra ICE. Normally the problem with minelayer is that you haven't got enough ice in HQ to benefit.
 
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Josh Schaener
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It also has an interesting synergy with awakening center, eeking some more efficiency out of your one-shot bioroid.
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I'm excited to try copycat on an ID that is virtually guaranteed to have a large amount of duplicate ice rezzed at the same time.
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sunergy wrote:
I'm excited to try copycat on an ID that is virtually guaranteed to have a large amount of duplicate ice rezzed at the same time.

And I'm excited that you'll be playing copycat.
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Zeb
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sunergy wrote:
I'm excited to try copycat on an ID that is virtually guaranteed to have a large amount of duplicate ice rezzed at the same time.


If only it was multi-use shake
 
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Ony Moose
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The effect of putting cards in HQ which are not agendas is very useful, it means The Foundry won't need to defend against HQ accesses as much, since most of the cards there are going to be ice.

If you are using GRAIl and NEXT ice, you get a huge benefit to having multiple copies quickly assemble in HQ. An unrezzed ice on R&D is also the perfect defence against Indexing, since you just let them in and then shuffle by rezzing when they re-reun. (Unless they have False echo, but who uses False echo?)

Is it worth 1C / turn though?

If you are using Eliza's Toybox and Melange Mining, you'll get further benefit out of not being EtF. And the Toybox will let you rez that Heimdall 2.0 for cheap, as well as finishing out a second copy to put on your awakening centre / use Howler on.

The main risk is going to be depleting R&D too quickly by taking out all the ICE, which is going to make you more vulnerable to R&D accesses.

PS Mutate also offers great synergy, since you can install and rez your cheap ice early on, which increases the chance your expensive ice is in R&D, since you've searched for and removed all the cheap ice already!
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Andrew Keddie
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Nice shout out for Mutate there, that's an interaction I hadn't considered!
 
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Zak Jarvis
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If this ability is really good, why does no-one play 'Levy University' currently? Alright you have to pay credits and a click for it, but that allows you to search for any ICE, any time. It's also an asset, which has ups and downs I suppose: trashable but also a server bluff.

Maybe people will start to play it more if they see the ICE-searching ability really sing in this new Haas-Bioroid division?
 
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