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Fire in the Lake» Forums » Rules

Subject: Air Lift Question rss

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Jeremy Spahr
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So, something that has just occurred to me now, after many game of A Distant Plain:

Can you (as the U.S.) Assault in a series of locations, then airlift troops out of those locations using Air Lift to other locations, finally using the newly arrived cubes to contribute to assaults in the new locations?

If there's a line the rulebooks either endorsing or prohibiting this, I missed it. I can read this as either "gamey" OR highlighting the mobility of troops via helicopter.

Curious which is intended by the designers.

And if this is something I should have thought of before while playing ADP.

Though in my defense, the latter has always been solitaire.

Thanks
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chris leko
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You can't interrupt one operation with another.

So when you do your assault, you can't airlift and assault again.

You have to resolve all airlift, and all assaults, in either order. But one at a time.
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Alexander Jansen
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often wrote:
You can't interrupt one operation with another.

So when you do your assault, you can't airlift and assault again.


The rules state at 4.1:

"Important: A Faction may execute its Special Activity at any one
time immediately before, during, or immediately after its Operation.

EXAMPLE: The VC Rally until at 0 Resources, then pause to Tax
and gain Resources, then continue to Rally in added spaces."
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chris leko
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CharlesMingus wrote:
often wrote:
You can't interrupt one operation with another.

So when you do your assault, you can't airlift and assault again.


The rules state at 4.1:

"Important: A Faction may execute its Special Activity at any one
time immediately before, during, or immediately after its Operation."


I remember this question coming up before, and Volko said something like that. Unless they changed the wording for FitL.
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Tim K
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Clever tactic that hadn't occurred to me. That would make Coalition Assaults really wicked.
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Oerjan Ariander
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often wrote:
You can't interrupt one operation with another.

Irrelevant for the OP's question, because Air Lift and Transport aren't Operations - they are Special Activities. (In Andean Abyss and Cuba Libre it would also be incorrect, since in those games you can use Shipments/Cash to do another Op half-way through the first one.)

The rule Charles quoted (4.1) is the same in all four COIN games to date.

Quote:
So when you do your assault, you can't airlift and assault again.

Yes, you can. You have to do the entire Air Lift in one go, but the "double Assault" Jeremy described is perfectly legal (and was used quite a lot during the playtests, too).

Regards, Oerjan
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chris leko
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Oerjan wrote:
often wrote:
You can't interrupt one operation with another.

Irrelevant for the OP's question, because Air Lift and Transport aren't Operations - they are Special Activities. (In Andean Abyss and Cuba Libre it would also be incorrect, since in those games you can use Shipments/Cash to do another Op half-way through the first one.)

The rule Charles quoted (4.1) is the same in all four COIN games to date.

Quote:
So when you do your assault, you can't airlift and assault again.

Yes, you can. You have to do the entire Air Lift in one go, but the "double Assault" Jeremy described is perfectly legal (and was used quite a lot during the playtests, too).

Regards, Oerjan


You know I got it when the first guy corrected me.
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Jacovis
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often wrote:
Oerjan wrote:
often wrote:
You can't interrupt one operation with another.

Irrelevant for the OP's question, because Air Lift and Transport aren't Operations - they are Special Activities. (In Andean Abyss and Cuba Libre it would also be incorrect, since in those games you can use Shipments/Cash to do another Op half-way through the first one.)

The rule Charles quoted (4.1) is the same in all four COIN games to date.

Quote:
So when you do your assault, you can't airlift and assault again.

Yes, you can. You have to do the entire Air Lift in one go, but the "double Assault" Jeremy described is perfectly legal (and was used quite a lot during the playtests, too).

Regards, Oerjan


You know I got it when the first guy corrected me.


Oerjan is basically an official answer. It is nice of him to step in so that later on someone can read this thread and see his response to dispel any doubt. He wasn't trying to pile it on.

Cheers!
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Oerjan Ariander
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often wrote:
You know I got it when the first guy corrected me.

Ah, OK. To me, your second reply above seemed to mean "Volko's previous comments support what I (chris) wrote above, so unless they've changed the rules for FitL you can't Assault-Air Lift-Assault." If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize.

Regards, Oerjan
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Jeremy Spahr
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Thanks for the reply. Again, I can see the logic of this, but wanted to make sure. And yes, now that it seems possible, I think it IS a really powerful tactic.
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Alexander Jansen
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CharlesMingus wrote:
The rules state at 4.1:

"Important: A Faction may execute its Special Activity at any one
time immediately before, during, or immediately after its Operation.

EXAMPLE: The VC Rally until at 0 Resources, then pause to Tax
and gain Resources, then continue to Rally in added spaces."


Follow up question:
we had the following situation in Pleiku-Darlac (Highland) in our game

1 VC base
2 active VC guerrillas

1 US Base
1 US Troop
1 US Irregular


US does an Assault + Air Lift
1. Assault with one US Troop to remove the 2 guerrillas (with the aid of the base)
2. Air Lift the US troop out of Pleiku (to participate in another Assault elsewhere) and three ARVN Troops into Pleiku
3. Add ARVN Assault to remove the VC base
4. +6 Aid due to removal of the base


Is it a legal move?
Per the rule quoted: yes. Still it feels strange to me. Like activating the space for the same Operation a second time, what is forbidden per 3.1: "Select a given space only once for a given Operation." Any comments?



Edit:
4. +6 Aid instead of +3. Thanks Dampenon Fabien.

Edit2:
Clarification, typos
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Dampenon Fabien
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If ARVN was already in Pleiku it could also be possible to Assault a second time, so I think it's legal.

May be it's Aid +6.
 
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Alexander Jansen
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Dampenon wrote:
If ARVN was already in Pleiku it could also be possible to Assault a second time, so I think it's legal.


Two ARVN Assaults in the same space, once prior to Air Lift and once afterwards (was it that what you ment), feels even more illegal to me
 
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P. Fowler
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CharlesMingus wrote:
Follow up question:
we had the following situation in Pleiku-Darlac (Highland) in our game

1 VC base
2 active VC guerrillas

1 US Base
1 US Troop
1 US Irregular


US does an Assault + Air Lift
1. Assault with one US Troop to remove the 2 guerrillas (with the aid of the base)
2. Air Lift the Us troop out of Pleiku and three ARVN Troops intp Pleiku
3. Add ARVN Assault to remove the VC base
4. +6 Aid due to removal of the base

Is it a legal move?

No. First, you already performed the Operation in that space, and you can't double up. Even so, it's irrelevant, since you can add the ARVN Troops ahead of time and add them to the Assault. (Also, US doesn't add to aid when you remove Insurgent Bases.)
 
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Paul H
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Turbine2k5 wrote:
Also, US doesn't add to aid when you remove Insurgent Bases.)


No but ARVN does. So the question then becomes is the ARVN assault added by the US under the same conditions as if ARVN faction conducted it during their turn. I think it is.
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Alexander Jansen
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Turbine2k5 wrote:
Even so, it's irrelevant, since you can add the ARVN Troops ahead of time and add them to the Assault.


The US Troop that was Air Lifted out of Pleiku was used for Assault in another space. And Air Lift can only occur one time. I could have be clearer about that.

Turbine2k5 wrote:
No. First, you already performed the Operation in that space, and you can't double up.


I'm still not sure if that is the case though.
 
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Curt Sellmer
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In rule 3.2.4 Assault , the second bullet under PROCEDURE reads:

• If a US Assault, count US Troops. Remove 2 enemies per US Troops cube if the space has a US Base, or only 1 enemy for every 2 US Troops (round down) if Highland with no US Base, or otherwise 1 enemy piece for each US Troop. If desired, pay 3 ARVN Resources to follow up with an ARVN Assault per the above bullet in 1 space where US Assault just occurred (no effect on ARVN Eligibility, 2.3.1).


By this wording the ARVN assault is a separate assault rather than a cooperative effort with the US troops.

So the real question is, can the Air Lift special activity be conducted between the resolution of the US assault in a space and the follow up ARVN assault in the same space?

My interpretation is that it could since they are separate assault operations, but an official ruling would be most welcome.
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Volko Ruhnke
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Yes. You can interrupt the Assault procedure within a single space, conduct a Special Activity such as Air Lift, then continue the procedure, as long as you are not repeating any part of the procedure within the space.

Quote:
US does an Assault + Air Lift
1. Assault with one US Troop to remove the 2 guerrillas (with the aid of the base)
2. Air Lift the US troop out of Pleiku (to participate in another Assault elsewhere) and three ARVN Troops into Pleiku
3. Add ARVN Assault to remove the VC base
4. +6 Aid due to removal of the base


Is it a legal move?
Per the rule quoted: yes. Still it feels strange to me. Like activating the space for the same Operation a second time, what is forbidden per 3.1: "Select a given space only once for a given Operation." Any comments?

Legal. You have carried out only a single US Assault procedure within Pleiku Province. You have executed your entire Air Lift Special Activity during a single interruption of your Operations procedure.

The First Team would be proud! vfr
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Alexander Jansen
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Thank you, Volko, for clarification!

The honor goes to Curt Sellmer
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Jacob Williams
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Bumping for separate Air Lift question.

How do the 4 spaces work for air lift? Can I air lift from 4 spaces to 4 other spaces (so 8 spaces in total are involved, 4 different initial locations to 4 different destinations), or do you basically rearrange the forces in 4 spaces?
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Rule 4.2.2 wrote:
Move any US Troops and up to 4 ARVN Troops, Rangers, or Irregulars among any 4 spaces

IOW, rearrange forces in 4 spaces.

I have to ask: what is it that makes this rule so unclear? This is the third time in less than two weeks that I see effectively the same question from English or US people who wonder if "among" means "from"... how could it be expressed clearer?

Bewildered regards, Oerjan
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Jacovis
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Oerjan wrote:
Rule 4.2.2 wrote:
Move any US Troops and up to 4 ARVN Troops, Rangers, or Irregulars among any 4 spaces

IOW, rearrange forces in 4 spaces.

I have to ask: what is it that makes this rule so unclear? This is the third time in less than two weeks that I see effectively the same question from English or US people who wonder if "among" means "from"... how could it be expressed clearer?

Bewildered regards, Oerjan


Among is fairly awkward here, really. To move "among" does not exclude the possibility that something came from outside to do so. If you want to limit the "from" pool as well as the "among" pool, you need to specify them separately.

So, a clearer descriptive would be "Choose four spaces. Move any number of US troops and up to 4 ARVN Troops, Rangers, or Irregulars among those four spaces."

My two cents.

Cheers, and thanks for answering so many questions for us Oerjan!


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Alex Beck
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Jacovis wrote:
Oerjan wrote:
Rule 4.2.2 wrote:
Move any US Troops and up to 4 ARVN Troops, Rangers, or Irregulars among any 4 spaces

IOW, rearrange forces in 4 spaces.

I have to ask: what is it that makes this rule so unclear? This is the third time in less than two weeks that I see effectively the same question from English or US people who wonder if "among" means "from"... how could it be expressed clearer?

Bewildered regards, Oerjan


Among is fairly awkward here, really. To move "among" does not exclude the possibility that something came from outside to do so. If you want to limit the "from" pool as well as the "among" pool, you need to specify them separately.

So, a clearer descriptive would be "Choose four spaces. Move any number of US troops and up to 4 ARVN Troops, Rangers, or Irregulars among those four spaces."

My two cents.

Cheers, and thanks for answering so many questions for us Oerjan!




Just got the game this weekend and had the same confusion - though what confused me was the use of "Any US Troops". I read that as "any troops, anywhere on the board" could be moved to 4 spaces. Though I could see the alternative interpretation too - so thanks for clearing it up.

And amazing game - loving it!

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Oerjan wrote:
Rule 4.2.2 wrote:
Move any US Troops and up to 4 ARVN Troops, Rangers, or Irregulars among any 4 spaces

IOW, rearrange forces in 4 spaces.

I have to ask: what is it that makes this rule so unclear? This is the third time in less than two weeks that I see effectively the same question from English or US people who wonder if "among" means "from"... how could it be expressed clearer?

Bewildered regards, Oerjan


This one made my list of Easily forgotten/missed/mistaken rules.

I screwed this rule up at first. I think the problem is seeing Airlift as a kind of super Sweep/March in which forces from any number of eligible origin spaces can move to a single target space. Something felt off about my Airlifts, so I went back and combed through the rule for the right answer.

I did successfully understand the rule on my own, so I don't think it is the language, but perhaps it could use an example after the PROCEDURE section to help clarify.
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Jacob Williams
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Oerjan wrote:
IOW, rearrange forces in 4 spaces.

I have to ask: what is it that makes this rule so unclear? This is the third time in less than two weeks that I see effectively the same question from English or US people who wonder if "among" means "from"... how could it be expressed clearer?

Bewildered regards, Oerjan



If I had to put money on an answer before posting, I would have went with this interpretation.

I guess with native English speaking gamers, ambiguity is what allows power gamers to optimally interpret rules to their advantage. So I wanted to ask for future clarity. When I played my game solo, I did among 4 spaces. But I don't know who my gaming group would interpret the rule.
 
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