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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Punisher McRook rss

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Josh Walker
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This may have been answered/debated in prior threads, but I couldn't find it after searching.

McRook reads: "When Punisher assigns to attack, knock out one target opposing character. Your opponent may prevent this effect by paying 2 life."

The question that arose during play is that with a global such as found on Vibranium Shield or Iron Man, can this be prevented or redirected? We could not find direct support in the rule book. The closest we could find was under Fundamental Rules where it states: "You cannot avoid paying costs. For example, if the cost of something is spinning a die down one level, and all you have are level 1 characters that can't be spun down, you cannot pay that cost." The argument made is that the shield is paying the cost to prevent the damage to the player.

I guess the real question is whether the wording is intentional in saying "pay life" and not "deals damage" as found on other cards. Has anyone queried WizKids on this one?

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Smat Denley
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Pay life is different from taking damage. So you cannot prevent it with a global or redirect it with an ability or activate an ability that requires being damaged. I honestly don't know if Wizkids has put out an official word on this, check the FAQ on their website. However, in my opinion, it isn't necessary to have their input on this subject.
 
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Jacob Walker
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DyslexicDan wrote:
You are correct that "paying life" isn't the same thing as taking damage.

I don't think anyone has asked this one of WizKids yet because there is enough prior games that clearly make the distinction between the two.

But considering WizKids weird track record with this game so far I would put every rule into some level of question until we see the Uncanny X-Men rule book.

Either way you are safe to assume they are two different things. That is how a judge at an organized play event would call it.


Generally speaking, I'm fine with working on how similar games handle this. But for me, this one is tricky particularly because of the wording of Silver Surfer's global, ie. "Pay a shield and take 2 damage..." Why does this say take 2 damage and not pay 2 life? Why should this life loss be preventable and Punisher's not?

From a design standpoint, if paying life and taking damage are different, I would think it would make more sense if these cards worked the other way around. If your opponent is causing the effect (and let's not kid ourselves, McRook is forcing the life loss), then it should be considered damage, and if you are volunteering the effect (as in the case of Silver Surfer), then it should be considered paying life.

Side Note: Having participated in the particular match where this came up, I'll tell you my concern is that this made McRook extremely powerful in the particular draft format we were trying (pool of 20 random character dice, each player removes 2 from the pool, then drafts the remaining 16 back and forth). Since the game is extremely heavy on high cost characters at present, this sort of format is not going to give you a lot of quick cheap fielding options, which is probably your best defense against McRook. This isn't necessarily a big deal since the format includes the possibility of eliminating McRook from the drafting pool, but we have already developed a large list of essentially insta-ban characters (Storm, Beast, Human Torch, Green Goblin, Dr. Strange); it would suck to add another die to that list.
 
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Matthew McFarland
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That might be because Silver Surfer's inherent abilities kick in when you have less life than your opponent; if you prevent the damage then you're potentially nerfing your own character. Additionally, McRook causing damage instead of requiring a payment could effectively nullify his card and overpower the opposing player, given the number of ways to redirect damage and the numerous potential benefits that has.

Edit: Also, SS is a global, whereas you're paying for McRook to not fire off his ability; it wouldn't be fair to 'pay' for something and not actually pay. I'm probably thinking too hard.
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Josh Walker
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Eyefink wrote:
I'm probably thinking too hard.


I think we probably all are.
 
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Jacob Walker
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Eyefink wrote:
That might be because Silver Surfer's inherent abilities kick in when you have less life than your opponent; if you prevent the damage then you're potentially nerfing your own character. Additionally, McRook causing damage instead of requiring a payment could effectively nullify his card and overpower the opposing player, given the number of ways to redirect damage and the numerous potential benefits that has.


I suppose I hadn't really thought about the relationship between SS's global and his actual character abilities, but that's likely because I can count on zero fingers the number of times I have actually fielded SS. I think betting on having less life than your opponent (especially by the time you get out a 6-cost character) is a losing strategy. As far as McRook having his ability nullified if he is dealing damage, there are any number of other characters that deal direct damage that already have this problem (Tsarina, Master of the Mystic Arts, Avenging Angel, Genetic Expert, Gobby, etc). I don't see how McRook (or Professor X for that matter, whose abilities also say "pay 2 life") is special when compared to those characters. If they deal damage, why shouldn't he?

Eyefink wrote:
Edit: Also, SS is a global, whereas you're paying for McRook to not fire off his ability; it wouldn't be fair to 'pay' for something and not actually pay.


My argument would be that by redirecting or preventing the life loss I am still paying the cost, just with a different game currency (energy, as opposed to life). But supposing I'm wrong: although the wording on SS's global says "take 2 damage", it still seems pretty clearly like part of the cost of using the global. Would it also be unfair to avoid paying that cost by redirecting or preventing the damage?

Eyefink wrote:
I'm probably thinking too hard.


If there's one thing I am sure of, it's that we are all thinking way too hard about this game.
 
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