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Race! Formula 90» Forums » Variants

Subject: Realistic Weather + Hazard fix rss

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Dustin Crenshaw
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Realistic Weather

This change, is to stop players from being able to conjure rain at their whim. They still have knowledge other players don't due to having weather cards to play.

SET-UP
Blind check to determine starting weather (just like normal)
Then draw a new check card. Put his card by the board, it will be the weather check card for the entire game.

RULE CHANGE
When a player plays a card with the weather symbol, they do a blind card to check against the weather check card for that race.
If the number is lower, it moves towards rain (right).
If the number is higher, it moves towards sunlight (left).
If it's the same, nothing happens




Hazard Fix

This is to fix the broken strategy "Hazard"

RULE CHANGE
Hazard now gives +1 movement total if you play any cards with damages or with checks.
When late breaking you get +1 movement if there are no cars in the first corner section (just like normal rules)
You get a Track card when you move 6 sections total.
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Stan Hilinski
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I've played over 25 games, and nobody in my group thinks hazard is broken or needs fixing. We must be playing the game differently.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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shilinski wrote:
I've played over 25 games, and nobody in my group thinks hazard is broken or needs fixing. We must be playing the game differently.


Must be. Everyone I played it with thought it was broken. And we proved it. 2 of us took hazard for the entire race, the rest didn't. We lapped everyone twice, except for 1 black and humans which we lapped once. Very broken.

But hey, this is just for people that feel it is broken and want a small fix.
 
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Paulo Renato
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Thanks for posting
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Stan Hilinski
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I played with a bunch of people at the WBC, and I've played it online and with my group, and at no time did Hazard break the game. I discussed this thread with others, and several -- including myself -- have tried to break it with Hazard. Never happened. In fact, you saying you lapped black cars makes me very suspicious as we find that feat just about impossible. And if it were true, it would mean the designer, his playtesters, and the publisher let this slip by. I find that hard to believe. I wish he would speak to this issue.

Quote:
Everyone I played it with thought it was broken. And we proved it.

Well, you proved it's broken the way you play the game. If it were me, first I'd wonder if I did something wrong.

In any case, I am not here to pick a fight. I think though it's important for anyone passing by who has not played the game not to go away believing that the game is de facto broken. There are a bunch of us who strongly disagree with this opinion.
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Very Stout
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I like the weather idea. If Hazard becomes an issue for our group your HR is easy enough to implement.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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This is not a threat to argue about rather or not it's broke. It's a fix if someone wants to use it, and we are playing the game correctly.
 
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John Bradshaw
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The weather idea looks really neat - I think I'd like to implement that. In the games I've played, no-one has wanted to change the weather so I've never seen that feature of the game come into effect. I like the idea of using the same check card. This gives an element of realistic predictability about the weather (ie, with a high check number you know it's likely to get, or stay wet) or realistic uncertainty which can prevail in some countries, if a mid-range number is drawn.

Actually - thinking of the recent discussion re track differences - this could be one way of differentiating tracks - so the weather check number could be pre-determined on the board - or even vary by time of year, depending on the track and the date of the race, if people want to simulate a F1 championship season. Just a thought.

I too am surprised to hear that Hazard is thought by some to be broken. I recall playing a Hazard stint recently where I barely received a single Damage card to use it! But that's not relevant - that was an extreme card outcome. The very first time we played, we hadn't nailed all the rules down and the Hazard player was getting +1 for every check - including lapping checks(!) which was silly and not surprisingly, he did win by quite a margin, but since applying the rules correctly, I've not seen Hazard dominate.

Anyway, you've offered a suggestion for anyone who has had your experience. I'll bear your comments in mind if I do start to notice Hazard dominating games.
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Vez A
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In my first game recently, for which I provided a lengthy write-up in a thread named My first game in progress (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1216679/my-first-game-progre...), I thought I saw both how Hazard could and could not be broken. It seems to depend on what cards you draw and whether the track in front is suffiently clean of other cars. One of my drivers pulled off amazing leaps one after another, while the other driver just struggled with that strategy.

One could perhaps argue that if you do have the cards then the strategy gives you so high speeds that it borders on making your race a bit uninteresting (there is was a point like that in my write-up).

True everything you do in the game depends on the cards you get. Still, good luck in some other aspects of the game tends not to lead to such overpowering.

Still a hugely enjoyable game!
 
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Ismael Descolado
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Quote:
Must be. Everyone I played it with thought it was broken.


I agree. HAZARD IS BROKEN if you a leader. More than 12 advanced games matches. Me and all my friends agree, HAZARD + REFLEXES is impossible to be won. Change rules is needed to this strategy.

If you is a leader and lose using Hazard, you are playing wrong.
 
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Stan Hilinski
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descolado1 wrote:

I agree. HAZARD IS BROKEN if you a leader. More than 12 advanced games matches. Me and all my friends agree, HAZARD + REFLEXES is impossible to be won. Change rules is needed to this strategy.

If you is a leader and lose using Hazard, you are playing wrong.


So you are saying that we are playing correctly only if we can break the game? I wonder if the designer would agree with that.
 
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Ismael Descolado
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No, no Stan. I'm just saying what I feel. Hazard + reflexes is very powerful (IMHO).

In all strategies there are a balance in movement points and track card bonuses.
i.e.: In Save Tyres you gain a lot of track cards easily, but don't have movement bonuses.
In Balance you have a movement bonuses, but you need - sometimes - sacrifice MP to stop in trajectory (to gain track cards).
In Chase you earn good cards, but need sacrifice movement points to stop in opponent section to gain track cards.
In Banging Wheels you don't have movement bonuses, but is easy earn track cards in any corner (while you not a leader).
In Lucky... oh man, I don´t know, this strategy is impossible to analyze [rsrsr].
In Hazard you gain a lot of movement points and a lot of track cards. Damage? Reflexes can help you.

Is not a problem to me. Me and my friends already fix it. devil
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René Christensen
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SeerMagic wrote:

If it's the same, nothing happens


Don't recall to have seen two cards with the same numbers!
And if there were, the odds for this would be very low.
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Slotracer wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:

If it's the same, nothing happens


Don't recall to have seen two cards with the same numbers! :what:
And if there were, the odds for this would be very low.


Of course there are duplicate numbers, the deck is over 99 cards :)

but yes, highly unlikely. but figured I'd say just so someone didn't ask.
 
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John Bradshaw
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SeerMagic wrote:
Of course there are duplicate numbers, the deck is over 99 cards :)

but yes, highly unlikely. but figured I'd say just so someone didn't ask.


At first glance it would appear that the odds of a pair are around 25%. However, because the 184 cards aren't equally distributed between 1,2,3 and 4, I calculate the odds to be slightly better than that, at around 28%. Not brilliant odds, but certainly not "highly unlikely". You should draw a pair at least once every 4 turns with average luck.

It sounds as if somebody may be trying to duplicate the check numbers??!
 
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Stan Hilinski
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There are 1-3 Race cards of each number (1-99). The ones with 3 are in the 64-76 range. So if you thought a late brake of 50 gave you a 50% of success, you'd be off. It's really around 47% chance.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Seghillian wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
Of course there are duplicate numbers, the deck is over 99 cards :)

but yes, highly unlikely. but figured I'd say just so someone didn't ask.


At first glance it would appear that the odds of a pair are around 25%. However, because the 184 cards aren't equally distributed between 1,2,3 and 4, I calculate the odds to be slightly better than that, at around 28%. Not brilliant odds, but certainly not "highly unlikely". You should draw a pair at least once every 4 turns with average luck.

It sounds as if somebody may be trying to duplicate the check numbers??!


yes we are talking check numbers for the weather, not the big number. certainly nowhere near 25% :)
 
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SeerMagic wrote:
yes we are talking check numbers for the weather, not the big number. certainly nowhere near 25% :)


Ah - yes - my mistake - I think the "lucky" strategy was mentioned earlier and I managed to mix up the two strands of the discussion in my addled brain.
 
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Vez A
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So I've been solo playing two advanced rules games simultaneously (one on Vassal and the other for real). In one of them I have used the original rules about the weather and in the other I've used Dustin's weather mechanic. I have to say both have got their thrills to them.

Originally, based on just reading the rule book, I had a problem with the felt lack of realism in the fact that the original rules allow the player to manipulate weather. There is, btw, already a threat discussing this at http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1193338/great-game-weather-r... including Allessandro giving his rationale for this weather change mechanic.

But now, having played the game, I just love the intrigue of being able to dabble with the weather. So one of my drivers is attempting a high risk trick of having put on intermediate tyres and then switched the weather from rain to match the tyres. Meanwhile all the others aren't due to pit for some time still, and the robots will keep sitting on their rain tyres anyway. Already now another human driver is hatching a counter-plan to pit and change weather. So there's scheming and intrigue all over the place right now! This is, of course, not particularly realistic but makes for great entertainment.

With Dustin's realistic weather fix, I find I'm much more cautious with the weather as I won't know where it will go. This is also great fun, especially when we are teetering on the brink of a weather change.

All in all, I find both mechanics are able to break up what for me had began to establish itself as the usual plot line of the game: at first the game is pretty close (more so with the black robots involved) until the final third where the humans would have to pit that extra time or two more than the robots after which a humans vs robots catch-up would ensue.
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Stan Hilinski
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Well, I ran a 2-player race in dry weather where both players used Hazard, and finally (FINALLY!) I had one car run away with the race. He got out to a quick lead and made huge moves again and again. He had 5+ Track cards and seemed to add 2 more every turn. The other guy though never could seem to break free and was stuck, which is more my experience.

So I can see that Hazard could abuse the game. For me it's uncommon, but I don't like the possibility in a 3 hour game. The thing that bothers me most about Hazard is that a player can draw a LOT of Track cards in one turn. If he plays 2 Checks and then late-brakes, for example, that's 3 Track cards in one turn. Only Banging Wheels lets you draw more than one, and the circumstances for BW to do it are uncommon.

So for me, I'm limiting Hazard to one Track card per turn, which brings it in line with the other strategies. I'm not limiting movement for now. If you do follow Dustin's variant, I'd suggest though that you get a Track card if you move 6+ AND you got at least 1 damage or you passed a least 1 check. This is more in the spirit of what Hazard is (taking risks).
 
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René Christensen
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Wonder if FiA will change the rules since Mercedes is so much faster than the rest of the cars - when the drivers don't ruin the race for each other!

I don't see any thing wrong with guys using Hazard and drive away, that is what happens in races.
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Slotracer wrote:
Wonder if FiA will change the rules since Mercedes is so much faster than the rest of the cars - when the drivers don't ruin the race for each other!


You haven't painted your black cars mercedes colors?
 
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René Christensen
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Nope, they weren't around in the 90s.
 
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Vez A
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Just to feed the old debate about the Hazard strategy a bit, here's a screen cap of my latest game of Race! Formula 90 on Vassal:



I have played the first two turns of the game and we are thus about to begin the turn #3. The blue leader car and the red car in the second place both have got Hazard on. The blue had the grid position three and the red one was fifth, I think. The orange car has got Lucky and started from the 9th position.

The blue car has accumulated three out of six damage (one of them brown), has got four more regular tyre discs and all three soft tyre discs left. The red car has got seven out of ten tyre discs and one out of three damage. Both of them will have to pit during the turn #8.


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Niko Block
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masil wrote:
I have played the first two turns of the game and we are thus about to begin the turn #3. The blue leader car and the red car in the second place both have got Hazard on. The blue had the grid position three and the red one was fifth, I think. The orange car has got Lucky and started from the 9th position.

The blue car has accumulated three out of six damage (one of them brown), has got four more regular tyre discs and all three soft tyre discs left. The red car has got seven out of ten tyre discs and one out of three damage. Both of them will have to pit during the turn #8.


So the blue car was able to do 15 movement points +2 for passing two robots? Is that advanced rules with track cards or only the bonus from hazard?
Will the cars be able to make it to turn 8 in one piece? They still have to go 6 turns each...
 
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