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Thunderstone Advance: Into the Abyss» Forums » General

Subject: Card List and Changes rss

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Will M. Baker
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Complete card list for Thunderstone Advance: Into the Abyss, including identifying in which set the card was originally published. For veteran players, I've emphasized those cards previously available only via promo, or new to this set.

HERO (117 total—13 each: six level 1, four level 2, two level 3, and one level 4)
Blind (WotE)
Chalice (TS)
Grim (ItA)
Outlands (TS)
Regian (TS)
Thornwood (TWS)
Verdan (DL)
Veris (TWS)
Xenomorph (ItA)

HERO (11 total—1 each of level 4)
Bluefire (ItA)
Clan (ItA)
Dark (ItA)
Divine (ItA)
Gohlen (ItA)
Harruli (ItA)
Isri (ItA)
Lorigg (ItA)
Stoneguard (ItA)
Tholis (ItA)
Woodfolk (ItA)

VILLAGE (136 total—8 each)
Augmentation Amulet (ItA)
Banish (TS)
Bolt of Purity (ItA)
Cursed Mace (WotE)
Demon Vision (ItA)
Doomgate Squire (DL)
Entrail Reader (ItA)
Fireball (TS)
Frost Giant Axe (DS)
Icon of Inversion (ItA)
Lightstone Gem (TS)
Polearm (TS)
Reclusive Mystic (ItA)
Sage (WotE)
Short Bow (WotE)
Swamp Provisions (HoD)
Toryn Gauntlet (DS)

MONSTER (80 total—10 each, except where noted)
Abyssal•Elite (TS)
Abyssal•Horde (ItA) (+10 placeholders)
Abyssal•Malformed (TWS)
Doomknight•Death (ItA)
Elemental•Pain (WotE)
Undead•Lich (DS)
Undead•Plague (DS)

GUARDIAN (2 total)
Guardian of Strength (Promo)
Guardian of Revenge (Promo)

THUNDERSTONE BEARER (2 total)
Heart of Doom (HoD)
Oblivion, Deathkeeper (ItA)

RANDOMIZER (33 total)
Heroes (9)
Village (17)
Monsters (7)

DIVIDER (33 total)
Heroes (9)
Village (17)
Monsters (7)


List of changes, from original printing to this edition. Most changes are in support of standardization and clarity, but I've made note where a card was changed to improve balance.

OVERALL
• All cards have been updated to match the frame and word tempting established in Towers of Ruin. This includes converting monster Battle effects to Aftermath effects if that effect destroys a card.
• References to Militia have been replaced with references to Regulars.
• Archer heroes are now Ranger heroes. References to Archers have been replaced with references to Rangers.
• Heroes have races.
• Spells have keywords.
• Monster Groups have levels.
• When halving something, cards specify rounding down or up.

HERO
• Chalice. Image flipped horizontally.
• Chalice Level 3. Spoils clarified from Village (suggesting only a village card) to “Buy 1 card”.
• Outlands Level 2. Trait attack decreased (better balanced).
• Outlands Level 3. Trait attack decreased; VP decreased (better balanced).
• Thornwood Levels 2-3. Light bonus/Spoils applied to highest rank, instead of rank 3 (supports deeper dungeons).
• Verdan. Class changed from Fighter•Thief to Ranger•Thief (more consistent with abilities and attributes). Race changed from human (in the print-and-play) to elf.

VILLAGE
• Lightstone Gem. Image rotated ninety degrees.
• Polearm. Addition of Polearm keyword (awesome with Regulars).
• Fireball. Attack is now a Dungeon ability instead of a trait.
• Frost Giant Axe. Magic keyword added.
• Short Bow. “Ranks 2 and 3” changed to “rank 2 or higher” (supports deeper dungeons).
• Toryn Gauntlet. Changed from weapon to item; optional to consider a hero equipped; cost increased to 6 (better balanced).

MONSTER
• Abyssal•Elite. Addition of ‘Elite’ keyword to monster group name (to clarify that ‘Abyssal’ is a keyword, not the name of a specific monster group).
• Lich Lord. Addition of Aftermath to heroes with Strength 0, to retain behavior from now-rescinded Dragonspire rules change.
• Plague Zombie, Walking Scourge. Image flipped horizontally.
• Hungry Dead. Reminder that monster effects do not affect diseases. (I was ignorant of this rule for the longest time.)
• Guardian of Strength. Persistent component of Breach effect clarified as a Global effect.
• Heart of Doom. Changed to Thunderstone Bearer (redundant Breach effect removed). Reference to Thunderstones updated to Thunderstone Shards. Given an XP value of 0.

(Continuing to update this as I identify noteworthy changes.)
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Ken

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There was a mention of a new use for xp tokens. Are you at liberty to share what the changes are?
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Justaguy Gaming
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Wow, in the other thread, I wasn't even trying to guess which cards would be in it, and 10 of the cards I was hoping for are listed here. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to this expansion.
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Samuel Hinz
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Thanks will!. Was this released at gencon? if not should we expect it soon?
 
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Jeremy Santiago
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I just got my copy tonight from my FLGS.
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Will M. Baker
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abodi wrote:
Thanks will!. Was this released at gencon? if not should we expect it soon?


To my knowledge, yes.
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Will M. Baker
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Jakelin wrote:
There was a mention of a new use for xp tokens. Are you at liberty to share what the changes are?


The same behavior as seen in Numenera, though here they are called expertise instead of cyphers (for thematic reasons).

Into the Abyss, p.3 wrote:
You may use expertise once on your turn as a Village/Dungeon ability...
Blue: Draw 1 card.
Gray: Destroy 1 card.
Green: Add Magic Attack +1.
Orange: Gain 2 gold.
Red: Add Physical Attack +1.
Yellow: Add Light +1.
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Genocidal EF pilot
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I take it they finally replace old Familiar mechanic?
And, if you pardon my curiousity, is there some difference in abilities of lv4 Dark and Veris? In our little group Veris considered to be one of top-tier classes - even lv2 Veris gives enourmous boost to deck with equipment, while lv3 can as devastating as Flame. So, you can imagine my amazement (and joy, yes) when I read about additional lv4.
 
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Will M. Baker
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gefp wrote:
I take it they finally replace old Familiar mechanic?


Yes, in the sense that, like certain other cards, they both leverage XP for additional functionality. Contrasted to familiars, with expertise the XP is consumed, the abilities are consistent between players, only one ability may be used per turn, and access to individual abilities will be determined by the capriciousness of the XP draw bag.

gefp wrote:
And, if you pardon my curiousity, is there some difference in abilities of lv4 Dark and Veris? In our little group Veris considered to be one of top-tier classes - even lv2 Veris gives enourmous boost to deck with equipment, while lv3 can as devastating as Flame. So, you can imagine my amazement (and joy, yes) when I read about additional lv4.


We considered the trajectory of each hero stack when designing their level 4s. Heroes who were already particularly potent at level 3 saw less of a bump at level 4 than heroes who were relatively weaker at level 3. (Divine was so incredibly awesome at level 3 that his level 3 ability was moved to level 4, and his level 3 was adjusted downward.) Each of the twenty level 4 heroes in this set should prove a force to be reckoned with.
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Noreen
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Thanks for posting this info Will.
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Soren Hedberg
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Awesome, just placed my order! I just wish AEG would update the Thunderstone website... No updates since Numenera!
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Samuel Hinz
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I'd order it, but no-one has it for order in australia.
 
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Philip Hartten
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Thanks for providing this, Will. Just out curiosity, was there any discussion of revamping the Lvl. 1 Verdan prior to the reprint? I was honestly surprised that it came back with only class/race changes, since that random discard is just so punishing and its other stats make it a top pick in almost every game it appears. And hats off for the team's design on the Xenomorphs ... definitely my favorite stack among the lot.
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zz2282 wrote:
Thanks for providing this, Will. Just out curiosity, was there any discussion of revamping the Lvl. 1 Verdan prior to the reprint? I was honestly surprised that it came back with only class/race changes, since that random discard is just so punishing and its other stats make it a top pick in almost every game it appears. And hats off for the team's design on the Xenomorphs ... definitely my favorite stack among the lot.


I'm happy the cleric hasn't showed up yet. I forgot the proper name of him, but every time he popped up in a game, if somebody concentrated on taking all he could get of him, the game was over (you draw another card whenever a cleric is drawn and at higher levels, monsters as well). Another player that played him twice was able to empty his draw deck every turn by the end of both games. It was an absolute slaughter. Even though other people on the TS forum at the time didn't think so, I think that hero is downright broken.

-Ski
 
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Will M. Baker
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Teamski wrote:
I'm happy the cleric hasn't showed up yet. I forgot the proper name of him, but every time he popped up in a game, if somebody concentrated on taking all he could get of him, the game was over (you draw another card whenever a cleric is drawn and at higher levels, monsters as well). Another player that played him twice was able to empty his draw deck every turn by the end of both games. It was an absolute slaughter. Even though other people on the TS forum at the time didn't think so, I think that hero is downright broken.


This sounds to me like Divine, which was reprinted in a powered-down state in Worlds Collide, for the very reasons you state. It was just too easy for a player to draw their entire deck.
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Will M. Baker
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zz2282 wrote:
Just out curiosity, was there any discussion of revamping the Lvl. 1 Verdan prior to the reprint? I was honestly surprised that it came back with only class/race changes, since that random discard is just so punishing and its other stats make it a top pick in almost every game it appears.


Yes, we definitely took a close look at Verdan. He is probably the best level 1 in the game, and too cheap at 7 cost.

For the most part we refrained from tinkering with stats, so we left him as is. We had to distinguish between cards that seemed broken (e.g., Divine, Stoneguard, Outlands), such that if you didn't buy them, you would lose to a player who did; and cards that were just really, really good. Although too cheap to buy into, his higher levels aren't that much better this his level 1, so at least his trajectory slows down a bit (in fact, in some cases I'd rather keep the level 1).
 
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darquil wrote:

This sounds to me like Divine, which was reprinted in a powered-down state in Worlds Collide, for the very reasons you state. It was just too easy for a player to draw their entire deck.


Yeah that must have been it. I pulled my hair out from that damned card and pledged to ban it for life.

-Ski
 
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Caeley O'Shea
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darquil wrote:

Yes, we definitely took a close look at Verdan. He is probably the best level 1 in the game, and too cheap at 7 cost.

For the most part we refrained from tinkering with stats, so we left him as is. We had to distinguish between cards that seemed broken (e.g., Divine, Stoneguard, Outlands), such that if you didn't buy them, you would lose to a player who did; and cards that were just really, really good. Although too cheap to buy into, his higher levels aren't that much better this his level 1, so at least his trajectory slows down a bit (in fact, in some cases I'd rather keep the level 1).


It rubs me in every wrong direction that the card was not changed as EVERYONE elects to leave it at level 1 for the random discard ability. The random discard is degenerative and I will continue to keep it on my banned hero list.

Beyond that, it is poor design to have a hero that is more powerful at level 1 than 2 or 3. I cannot think of another hero that falls into this category. Admittedly, I'm not thinking very hard and am just very angry. My set will be here Monday and I'm still amped for our release party.

Edit: I should note I only play epic with a HEAVILY modified rule-set.
 
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darquil wrote:
Although too cheap to buy into, his higher levels aren't that much better this his level 1, so at least his trajectory slows down a bit (in fact, in some cases I'd rather keep the level 1).


Did you ever float the idea to yourself, that this is in essence, the very definition of a broken character? There is a reason that Verdan is a horrible card, and is banned in most serious leagues.

Having a hero be at their best at level 1 is not an endearing character trait, or even an interesting change of pace. It's just a stupid gimmick that should not manage to weasel its way into the official set. Not only does it make having house rules a must to have any semblance of balance, it makes the game as a whole seem incomplete and poorly thought out.

You should strongly consider that you either change the card, to make it's power match more directly with it's level, or just remove the card altogether. That way, folks who (for whatever reason) did enjoy this cheap gimmick can keep it from the previous sets, while those serious players out there will not have to worry about such poor game design being introduced into yet another expansion further degrading the name of 'Thunderstone' as a serious and balanced deck building game.
 
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Caeley O'Shea
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darquil wrote:


We considered the trajectory of each hero stack when designing their level 4s. Heroes who were already particularly potent at level 3 saw less of a bump at level 4 than heroes who were relatively weaker at level 3. (Divine was so incredibly awesome at level 3 that his level 3 ability was moved to level 4, and his level 3 was adjusted downward.) Each of the twenty level 4 heroes in this set should prove a force to be reckoned with.


Really looking forward to this change and the level fours.
 
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Will M. Baker
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jojokun wrote:
It rubs me in every wrong direction that the card was not changed as EVERYONE elects to leave it at level 1 for the random discard ability....Beyond that, it is poor design to have a hero that is more powerful at level 1 than 2 or 3.


Like with many other heroes, part of what makes Verdan interesting is knowing when to level him up, to phase out an ability that is more useful at the beginning of the game (like a random discard), exchanging it for other abilities/traits more useful toward the end of the game (like banish, although banish is an awesome ability throughout the game).

All other things being equal, I would expect the player who never levels up Verdan to lose to the player who does. If everyone in your group refuses to level him up, I see an opportunity for an edge.
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BigManOnCampus1998 wrote:
Did you ever float the idea to yourself, that this is in essence, the very definition of a broken character?


I would disagree. I define a broken card as one that, when obtained, leads predominantly to victory over those who ignore it. I.e., its presence in the game dictates how the game must be played. A player can win without Verdan against players with Verdan.

BigManOnCampus1998 wrote:
Having a hero be at their best at level 1 is not an endearing character trait


Verdan is not at his best at level 1. Although there are circumstances where I would not level him up, if given a binary choice (and no other information) I would take a Verdan level 3 over level 1 without question. He has twice the attack, the ability to drain XP, and banish (perhaps the best ability in the game). And he's worth 1 VP. I value those abilities/traits more highly than the chance to randomly ding an opponent's hand which, by mid-game, shouldn't rely on any particular card anyway. In the early game, when every card counts, Verdan level 1 can be devastatingly awesome. By mid-game, any good deck can weather his attack.
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Caeley O'Shea
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darquil wrote:


All other things being equal, I would expect the player who never levels up Verdan to lose to the player who does. If everyone in your group refuses to level him up, I see an opportunity for an edge.


I agree with you here. I shouldn't have been commenting on design when we play non-standard epic rules (1 copy of each and every hero in the hero stack). We'll be adding back Verdan to the mix but house-ruling away his level 1 ability.

My box arrived today and I really dig the level 4 abilities on all the heroes. I hope you continue to release level 4 heroes for those that weren't covered in Into the Abyss.

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Joe babbitt
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While Verdan's random discard is a pain, and certainly powerful (that's why he made the best of set, after all) it is limited to effectively only being able to hit a player once (pending other increased hand size effects like Time Bend). Compare this to say, Redblade or Lorigg, who can actively put a severe hurt on your hand. Even if you choose, less cards is less cards. Verdan is powerful, no question about it, but broken or an auto-buy? Not even close.

That said, Into the Abyss has some of my favorite cards. When we were in playtest with this, I couldn't get enough of Demon Vision (I wasn't really sold on it at first until I played with it) and Xenomorph is not only a fantastically cool concept, but how to play and level it makes for some interesting game choices.
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James Resner
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Is there any duplication between Into the Abyss and Worlds Collide?

 
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