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Subject: Myth Busted! - a sandbox turned into a box of sand rss

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Carlos Saldanha
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Hi all,

I've went on vacations into the great countryside Portugal's interior has to offer, the countryside where internet is something folks heard on the TV and mobile phone signal is scarce. With car space a little limited I've decided to bring a game to play in my weeks' vacations.

I've looked into a full streak of Legendary Marvel scenearios (the ones available on BGG boards) from first 'til last or... Myth.
I've had some sour mouth experiences with Myth before, with lots of comments by my side on the Myth boards. After 3 gameplay attempts I've decided I would bring Myth for another showdown, a make-or-break, last stand, see-who-gets-the-best me or Myth. And as you can guess by the topic title...

I really wanted to get deep into this game to see if I was really mistaken about it, when I've wrote into the boards about my failed experiences. So with just one game to play and the desire to make it work, I came down regretting myself once more... or even more than before.

What to say about this game that I've never said before?! Nothing! And this is also what this game has to offer me, nothing!

It sounds harsh but today, with only one game to play, I really regret the money spent into this "sandbox" experience.

I've really tried to make it work. I've set the rules on one side, the 1.1 rules on the other side and the FAQ on my laptop. No internet playthrough videos, so I have to work with what I had.

First, the most lazy or lamest thing I've seen in a boardgame: normal rules doesn't have a Setup!
Really?! Where this guys had their heads when they designed this rulebook?!
Only the 1.1 version of the rulebook, which I've printed by my own expense, has the general Setup for this game. Lame!

Second, a detail I think it's pretty annoying; the Treasure cards have all the same back but are different.
Well, this is 2014 and this game was designed in 2014, so what's the reason not to make different card backs for White, Green and Blue Treasure decks?!
The "solution" MCG offered in their videos is just ridiculous and reflects the whole game, lazy!

Ok, I've set the game and started running it. I've choose a Story Quest thinking it was more streamlined and more defined. Oh, I couldn't be more wrong.
Story Quests are defined in the rulebook but... it's only the Realm/map that is defined, everything else comes from this nonsense MCG designers called "sandbox game".
I can live with that, no worries. First story and I've choose to play a Trap. Rolled for it and read the whole trap process. The wording on the rules were messy and without broadband to check for explanations, I went into step 1 again and took a Quest.
I've took a card from the Quests and started resolving it.

Once again, the major flaw I have with this game is the lack of solid rules and rules design.
Everything is pretty standart untill you go into the Refresh Phase and there's where this game breaks down.
Once again, I have the original rulebook, rulebook 1.1 and FAQ, and neither in those documents is said that when within Threat range, monsters will act.
I've remembered this from Remy videos about Myth but without the internet by my side and the chance to see those videos I was looking at the board thinking how the logic of this game would work.
After some back and forth, I've started to put the components on the game box, closed it and put the game on the trunk of the car.

I can count from one hand the bad experiences I've had with boardgames and how hard I regret buying those games.
Lucky or not I've sold all those games I really thought wasted my money on them. But on that list, this one, Myth, is solid #1. Even LOTR:LCG, even Mage Knight Boardgame, heck, even Star Wars LCG gave me better gaming experiences than this one.
As it is, Myth is not a sandbox but a box filled with miniatures and cardboard. As a game, Myth fails to deliver. It fails the sense of Adventure, it fails on its rules, it fails on production, it fails on playtesting. This game kept failing and failing and would only start to work with the help of third-party users who gave up their time and resources to make it work, because even the position of the company, MegaCon Games, was lazy and lame.

I can only say one more thing about this game: DON'T BUY IT!
Spare your money for Shadows of Brimstone or The Witcher Adventure Game. They may not be the "sandbox" glorious catchphrase some used over this but at least are finished and tested products that would not make you regret your money, support and time wasted on them.

And also a word to other reviewers, be honest, I mean, be really honest about your reviews.
As for video reviewers, Richard was the one who was really honest about this game and told exactly what he thought about the game.
Joel was, as I was and about 90% of the folks who bought the game, confused about the game and did the review over the 'promise' this game offered (that whole sandbox thing).
Tom Vasel on the other hand... it was his opinion that drove me into this game. Tom always rated Descent as one of the Top 5 games of his choice and he said in the review of Myth that this game could replace Descent. I've fall for that, I've bought this game because I wanted a similar Descent experience as a solo gamer, or with an AI instead of being the one to play the Overlord. Also he said the rulebook was pretty good. Yeah, pretty good for someone who didn't read it and was taught how to play the game by the game designer, where some rules are still in his head and not in any of the rulebooks.

To end this chapter before I'll put the game for sell when I come home from vacations, and will never want to heard about MCG or Myth again, please people, take a look on gaming companies and their practices. Don't support companies that fail to deliver, that promise a certain time and deliver several months after, or don't deliver at all; and when deliver it's not a complete product but a product pushed into the market just to be sold and then you'll have to repair or complete the product with rulebooks and Erratas and new material printed by you. FAQs are part of the process but the rest... don't let this board gaming turn into digital gaming where companies lead you into paying for doing their works, paying for Beta access so you spot bugs in design and then pay to complete their original product in DLC form.
This is something I'm identifying in this company (MCG), so please, don't support this kind of attitude because it will not bring anything good, on the opposite, it will bring rushed and incomplete products.

Myth Busted!



PS. sorry any mispelling and don't think I'm a hater.
My love for this kind of games, Adventure games, brought me into completing everything it was made for Runebound and collecting several stuff from Descent 2nd Edition. I don't regret any money spent on those games and I felt fulfilled everytime I've played them.
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Phil McDonald
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I think you really should have said don't buy it without trying it first.

Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.

Anyone else is entitles to say So What?

If regular use of BGG teaches us anything is that BGG ratings and strongly held opinions of others pale into insignificance compared to our own personal tastes.

I wouldn't play half the games in the BGG top 100 if you paid me. Do I think they are bad games? Of course not... but the fact that many people enjoy them doesn't make me enjoy them any more.

And of course the opposite is true. So thanks for your opinion, but so what?

I'm glad I bought it.... but I wouldn't dream of telling any one else that they should

whistle
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Michael Pruden
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Thank you for your honesty. I agree that it is a hard game to learn.

I learned it and had fun with it with three other people no problem. My only issue with the game right now is that the first game with new people takes WAY too long as people are trying to learn and such. It's one of those games that takes a committed group to really pull off.

I do think I prefer DnD to Myth but in the long run Myth will make it to my table a lot more as no one has to play the "bad guy."
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philmcd wrote:
Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.


Honest question - is there any situation in which you would say it's cool for a reviewer to say, "Don't buy this game!"

To me, the entire premise of a review is, "These are my thoughts, and my recommendation. You might disagree." So saying that in the review is a bit of a waste of time.
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yeah, the back of the cards...that's just annoying

I also find the over all art work lacking.
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oDESGOSTO wrote:

Tom Vasel on the other hand... it was his opinion that drove me into this game. Tom always rated Descent as one of the Top 5 games of his choice and he said in the review of Myth that this game could replace Descent. I've fall for that, I've bought this game because I wanted a similar Descent experience as a solo gamer, or with an AI instead of being the one to play the Overlord. Also he said the rulebook was pretty good. Yeah, pretty good for someone who didn't read it and was taught how to play the game by the game designer, where some rules are still in his head and not in any of the rulebooks.


That guy just can't be trusted.

You can't possibly do as many review has he does and get a good experience with the game. 1 or 2 play thrus is just not enough.

And he likes nearly everything.

His videos should be ignored, and taken with a huge grain of salt, in an open wound.
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Phil McDonald
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Idaho11 wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.


Honest question - is there any situation in which you would say it's cool for a reviewer to say, "Don't buy this game!"

To me, the entire premise of a review is, "These are my thoughts, and my recommendation. You might disagree." So saying that in the review is a bit of a waste of time.


I think both are equally meaningless frankly
 
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Vytautas Podolianka
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So as i read, i shouldn't buy games at all :o
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Phil McDonald
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VytautasP wrote:
So as i read, i shouldn't buy games at all :o


Or maybe you should buy all of them
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Robert Finamore
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n3x3n wrote:
I do think I prefer DnD to Myth but in the long run Myth will make it to my table a lot more as no one has to play the "bad guy."


You should consider checking out the tons of GM-less (No gamemaster needed to play) RPGS out there.
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Steve O'Grady
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I liked this review. He was honest about his thoughts about owning the game and the problems someone should be aware of going in.

I read the initial reviews and sold my game unopened as soon as I got it. It was the right choice for me. My wife and I are Board Gamers. We like our games ready to play right out of the box. We occasionally stumble upon a game where we have to make a judgement call, but we can get past that. Based on what I read, this game was not for us, and as such, we sold it right away.

However, the guy who bought it from us loves it. He is younger (we are older), so he has the time and energy to dig into a set of miniatures rules and "sandbox" system to make it his kind of game. I am glad for him that he got what he wanted and enjoys it as much as he does. As it turns out, between us, both parties were happy.

But it does show that you must read reviews to determine if it is right for you. Hopefully the review will convey that kind of information and not be largely subjective. We are all different. The guy who bought my game had a different taste for what he wanted, whereas my wife and I did not share the same taste. That's OK. He is a great guy and a great gamer and I know we have other similar tastes. Just not this one.

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Dan Gillis
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Well these moments always speak to the human condition. Funny how I could have a complete opposite experience than the OP. It certainly shows the diversity and uniqueness of interest and tolerance. I find myself agreeing with the second post where there are many popular games I can't stand. There are people out there who adore monopoly. Who can understand any of it?

Thanks for the review.

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philmcd wrote:

I wouldn't play half the games in the BGG top 100 if you paid me. Do I think they are bad games? Of course not... but the fact that many people enjoy them doesn't make me enjoy them any more.


You're not comparing apples to apples though. OP is not saying 'Myth is a good game, but it's not for me'. OP is saying thematically the game fits his interests, but logically and mechanically the game does not work, and further cites decision flaws, and design flaws. Ultimately he probably hasn't even played the game yet (as it is intended to be played) through no fault of his own.
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Matt Connellan
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philmcd wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.


Honest question - is there any situation in which you would say it's cool for a reviewer to say, "Don't buy this game!"

To me, the entire premise of a review is, "These are my thoughts, and my recommendation. You might disagree." So saying that in the review is a bit of a waste of time.


I think both are equally meaningless frankly


If it sucks, it sucks. No reason to mince words.
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Frank Franco
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I can only say one more thing about this game: DON'T BUY IT!
Spare your money for Shadows of Brimstone or The Witcher Adventure Game.


If you can't work out what is wrong here then you deserve to be ripped off.
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Phil McDonald
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GeekDadGamer wrote:
I liked this review. He was honest about his thoughts about owning the game and the problems someone should be aware of going in.

I read the initial reviews and sold my game unopened as soon as I got it. It was the right choice for me. My wife and I are Board Gamers. We like our games ready to play right out of the box. We occasionally stumble upon a game where we have to make a judgement call, but we can get past that. Based on what I read, this game was not for us, and as such, we sold it right away.

However, the guy who bought it from us loves it. He is younger (we are older), so he has the time and energy to dig into a set of miniatures rules and "sandbox" system to make it his kind of game. I am glad for him that he got what he wanted and enjoys it as much as he does. As it turns out, between us, both parties were happy.

But it does show that you must read reviews to determine if it is right for you. Hopefully the review will convey that kind of information and not be largely subjective. We are all different. The guy who bought my game had a different taste for what he wanted, whereas my wife and I did not share the same taste. That's OK. He is a great guy and a great gamer and I know we have other similar tastes. Just not this one.



It's not an age thing either. I'm 59 and I like the game quite a bit, but as I said earlier I think that is meaningless in the greater scheme of things.

What concerns me is that some people might be put off by some quite vocal dislikers of the game without actually trying it to make their own mind up. You sold yours unopened after all, and maybe you were right to do so, I don't know.

If I can give my own thoughts, which I hoped are balanced, even though I do like the game.

With regard to the rulebook, yes I think it could have been written better. However this is a complaint that can be aimed at a large percentage of Kickstarted games and Fantasy Flight are not exactly perfect on that score. What I tend to do when I get a new game these days is to watch one of the good game walkthrough videos on it's game page. rahdo runs through it, Calandale and Marnaudo are my go to guys. THEN I read the manual and it all makes so much more sense. I highly recommend this approach.
Anyway, the rule book for Myth wasn't a problem to me after watching Rahdo and Marnaudo.

Likes:

I like the innovation of the game. Placing your orders with cards, creating combos and managing when the darkness deck is triggered are cool to my own personal taste.

I think the component quality is excellent and I like the graphical representations. The minis (and maxies) are tremendous.

I like the way the boards come into play and how they trigger the adventure cards, merchants and monsters. I also like the way that treasure and equipment is managed.

I very much like the linked quests and stories. As someone who puts theme as top of their list, this game is excellent.

As a solo gamer I really like the way it plays well in this mode.

Dislikes:

Only 2 races of monster in the base game. I missed the game on Kickstarter, and I think 2 races in the base box is definitely not enough.

The same applies to the darkness deck. Only 1 deck when it is only a few cards. Come on.

The game is too biased towards slaughterhouse for my taste (even without playing the slaughterhouse variant, which I won't). Personally I don't want to see expansions concentrate on plentiful expansions of samey races. I hope the game will be developed thoughtfully to expand the story and strategic side of the game.

Only the base game is available in the UK so far. They need to sort that quickly or risk people losing interest in the game because of the limited creatures, darkness decks and stories in the base game.

Price of expansions. I have ordered a pack of Shamblers from America to add some undead to the game and that seemed reasonably priced, but the captains, mini bosses and Bosses seem overpriced to say the least. I won't be buying them unless the price drops.

Just my 4.5 pence

Overall a good start, but could go either way in future depending how they develop it.
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Pintsizepete wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.


Honest question - is there any situation in which you would say it's cool for a reviewer to say, "Don't buy this game!"

To me, the entire premise of a review is, "These are my thoughts, and my recommendation. You might disagree." So saying that in the review is a bit of a waste of time.


I think both are equally meaningless frankly


If it sucks, it sucks. No reason to mince words.


Munchkin sucks, Carcassonne sucks, Monopoly sucks.... this game isn't a suckee
 
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philmcd wrote:
I think you really should have said don't buy it without trying it first.

Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.

Anyone else is entitles to say So What?

If regular use of BGG teaches us anything is that BGG ratings and strongly held opinions of others pale into insignificance compared to our own personal tastes.

I wouldn't play half the games in the BGG top 100 if you paid me. Do I think they are bad games? Of course not... but the fact that many people enjoy them doesn't make me enjoy them any more.

And of course the opposite is true. So thanks for your opinion, but so what?

I'm glad I bought it.... but I wouldn't dream of telling any one else that they should

whistle


I have to disagree with this. Maybe it's a legitimate response to a review that says "no one should buy this because it was not my cup of tea". But OP touches on some objective points, e.g., either the rulebook is deficient or it isn't. OP says it is. People that think otherwise should argue the point, not pretend that whether a rulebook actually explains the rules is matter of taste.
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JJRR_Esq wrote:
philmcd wrote:
I think you really should have said don't buy it without trying it first.

Your views ARE completely relevant of course, but only to you and others whose personal tastes are identical or at least very similar to your own.

Anyone else is entitles to say So What?

If regular use of BGG teaches us anything is that BGG ratings and strongly held opinions of others pale into insignificance compared to our own personal tastes.

I wouldn't play half the games in the BGG top 100 if you paid me. Do I think they are bad games? Of course not... but the fact that many people enjoy them doesn't make me enjoy them any more.

And of course the opposite is true. So thanks for your opinion, but so what?

I'm glad I bought it.... but I wouldn't dream of telling any one else that they should

whistle


I have to disagree with this. Maybe it's a legitimate response to a review that says "no one should buy this because it was not my cup of tea". But OP touches on some objective points, e.g., either the rulebook is deficient or it isn't. OP says it is. People that think otherwise should argue the point, not pretend that whether a rulebook actually explains the rules is matter of taste.


Read my post a couple of posts up, I think that covers it... or maybe not
 
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So is it playable out of the box or not? Mage Knight had a lot of rules, but they were clear. I don't want to have to scour the internet to figure out a "system."

Edited to say: If the rules are as crummy as the people have been claiming, then I'd say, yeah, although the OP uses a lot of obvious hyperbole, his review would be way more helpful to me than the person who says "reviews are meaningless because they're subjective." I'd way rather not waste a bunch of time trying to fix an under-developed game.

Also, if the rules are as big a mess as the OP and others have claimed, then yeah, I think he's right to call out Tom Vassel. Hey, I love Tom's reviews, and he'll continue to be the first person I look to for opinions, but I find it hard to believe Tom would be unaware of a horrible mess of rules if he had to learn it on his own. That said, I haven't read the rules, thus my opening question... Is it playable out of the box or not?
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philmcd wrote:

What concerns me is that some people might be put off by some quite vocal dislikers of the game without actually trying it to make their own mind up. You sold yours unopened after all, and maybe you were right to do so, I don't know.


At what point do the people who dislike the game become a legitimate segment of those who tried it, instead of just a vocal minority to be dismissed? Over a quarter of the people who rated this game gave it a 5 or under. That's not a few vocal "haters" acting out a vendetta - that's a significant segment of the market saying this game sucks.

Also, we can't all buy and try every game. Sometimes, you go with reviews because there are plenty of other things to spend your money and time on, so there's no reason to invest in something a significant number of people think is terrible. It's not worth it to risk it when you can buy something that's much more well regarded.
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Mr_Bickman wrote:
So is it playable out of the box or not? I love the idea of Myth, but Robinson Crusoe was pretty much the limit of how much time I'm willing to spend figuring out (on BGG, etc) how to play a game. Mage Knight, for example, even though it has lots of rules, all made sense, with some referring back to the rulebook during the first few plays - I'm fine with that.


This is much worse than Robinson Crusoe.
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Mr_Bickman wrote:
So is it playable out of the box or not? I love the idea of Myth, but Robinson Crusoe was pretty much the limit of how much time I'm willing to spend figuring out (on BGG, etc) how to play a game. Mage Knight, for example, even though it has lots of rules, all made sense, with some referring back to the rulebook during the first few plays - I'm fine with that.


Well it was for me. If you think the game sounds cool enough to watch a video run through before reading the rules that is.

Not a big investment compared to the cost of the game methinks.

I think some people are hanging too much on the rulebook. Yes it SHOULD and COULD have been better. But is it worth blocking the game for you? Not for me to say.

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philmcd wrote:


Not a big investment compared to the cost of the game methinks.



Actually, I'd rather pay more for a complete game. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky. I hate having to watch boring gameplay videos and scour FAQ's as opposed to having a clear set of rules in the box. If the gameplay were as good as people have been saying, I'd definitely pay more to not have to go through all of that.
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...It fails the sense of Adventure

Can't agree with that. Myth delivers a very strong sense of adventure, more than a lot of other games of that type I've played. The pals I've played with would agree with that and there is a Descent 2nd Ed. Owner among them.

...it fails on its rules,

I'll give you that ;-) The rules are really a mess. It will take you a little bit of time to get trough 1.0 and not all is covered. Without videos and FAQs it takes you longer to figure it out but...it's playable. But it's far from being that what a board gamer would and can expect from a quite expensive game. Miniatures gamers and roleplayer will have it a lot easier.

... it fails on production

Besides the rules...in no way. The minis are great, the tiles are as pretty as in Mice and Mystic, the game has it's own art style – you can dislike it but it's consistent. The cardstock is fine, thick and sturdy and the cards of good quality.

...it fails on playtesting.

Yes, you are absolutely right. That's one of the problems with kickstarter projects. A bigger company with a good bunch of games under their belt wouldn't have messed that up. (Oh...wait DDD wasn't that Queen Games)

...MegaCon Games, was lazy and lame.

I don't think so...perhaps unexperienced, overwhelmed by the success, shortsighted...

….I can only say one more thing about this game: DON'T BUY IT!

Let's say: Read the reviews, consider wisely, and try it before you buy, it's not for everyone (and that's fine)

….Don't support companies that fail to deliver, that promise a certain time and deliver several months after, or don't deliver at all

For short – don't do Kickstarter, because you've to expect that when you back a small company. Zombicide Season 1 was late and Kingdom Death did twice the money of Myth and is delayed.
But Megacon has delivered the Core Set and is shipping the 2nd wave right now – only EU backers are still waiting for their stuff – I am one of them and I've been fine with that (OK im a late backer and so that's not of a problem for me)

So Myth is not for you, that's a pity but OK.
For me it's one of the best adventure dungeon crawler games I've experienced so far – but I also like Mage Knight the Board Game, a terrific game and Robinson Crusoe the best storytelling cooperative game out there – for me.

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