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Myth» Forums » General

Subject: Post from Kenny rss

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John Ziegler
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I saw this post from Kenny at MCG over on the Myth Kickstarter comments, and I figured I would post it here because it seems pretty relevant to a lot of the discussions here.

Kenny wrote:
Kenny here for a quick communication.

First off I want to say that I am truly sorry that all of our backers have had to wait due to delays that we have encountered in this project. I know an apology doesn't make everything alright but I want you all to know that at every turn we were trying to do everything we knew how to do to get Myth to all of our backers as soon as possible.

Most things we encountered in this project were things we had to learn on the fly. Many of the decisions we made had to be a balance between getting everything to our backers and keeping the company running effectively. I won't go into the day to day business operations, but just know that the experience came with a steep learning curve.

We aren't throwing all the blame on the manufacturers for what has happened. We have learned what to expect realistically now when production numbers are as high as they became with Myth.

The only thing we truly wanted for Myth was to give everyone a great game with tons of miniatures and other accessories. Something that was fun to play with their friends or create their own adventures. This was a dream for us and every single backer has made the dream a reality and we are extremely grateful for that. We were too optimistic in what we could give in this Kickstarter and actually finish at the estimated delivery date, but we wanted you all to have so much stuff! I actually wish all of our backers could see the effect this had on us as the stretch goals were blown apart day after day. The final goal was far above what we imagined it even COULD get to. This is because of the faith you put in us to make a great game and deliver a high quality product. So thank you again!

If all the delays have made you question the faith that you put in us, I am sorry. I can only tell you we have learned from this experience and will strive to always do better as we want to keep making games for everyone and expand the worlds we have created.

A final good note, RoW shipments have started today so expect pledges to slowly but surely arrive at your doorstep!
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Dan Gillis
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I can't imagine handling this monster of a project after relatively less sales with their forerunner MERCS TT. How would anyone in that position know what to expect?
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Frank Franco
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He appologised? That's it, the wimp has lost me as a customer.
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Kolby Reddish
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JimbobJones wrote:
I just wish they'd handle this stuff proactively -- then they wouldn't need to keep apologizing. If they keep everyone informed of what's going on, their lives would be a lot easier.

Take Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game -- they were several months later than expected (traditionally published by Plaid Hat -- no KS), but they kept people routinely abreast of the issues, and said when the NEXT update would be. There were no surprises, and no chance for people to "make shit up" because once an issue occurred, they told us there was an issue.

Myth fans will say stuff like "well, if they say what's happening, then people will complain". They're complaining anyway -- keeping people informed will simply give them less to complain about.

Anyway, good of them to give this update.


There's a really big difference between these two cases. Dead of Winter was preordered when it was already in production or in the shipping phase. Myth was created from the ground up. Dead of Winter was one core game box with no minis to produce, no complicated order, just a normal board game. A Myth Captains pledge is like over a year of regular releases all at once.

Now, I'm not saying that MCG haven't made mistakes, and you're right, they should be more proactive. They should have done ALOT of things differently, but you're comparing two totally different things.

At this point, I honestly don't think there's anything that MCG that will keep people happy. You can tell in their latest updates that there were more mixups with the production company, however, they're simply focusing on the plan going forward and I applaud them for just trying to do their best. Again, not saying they've done everything, even the majority of things well.

Considering your experience with the game, it's nice of you to praise them for at least taking the initiative to apologize.
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Kristopher Snyder
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Kolby's correct. It's not comparable. Moreover, compare the number of games/expansions etc. Plaid Hat has released to MCG's one TT game. Practice makes perfect. Watch how much better Mercs: Recon will be handled because Myth was a bit of a train wreck.
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I'm not sure I follow that communication was bad 5 monthso ago. I think they didn't post as many 'something happened, we'll get more info ASAP' messages as I would've liked, but they were still pretty forthcoming as soon as they got it.

This last time, though.... they made several changes to plans without telling anybody, even their own volunteers....

My .02 at least
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Kristopher Snyder
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JimbobJones wrote:
kraasn wrote:
Kolby's correct. It's not comparable. Moreover, compare the number of games/expansions etc. Plaid Hat has released to MCG's one TT game. Practice makes perfect. Watch how much better Mercs: Recon will be handled because Myth was a bit of a train wreck.


I would agree with you except for one thing: MCG has made this exact same mistake (lack of communication) several times already. This isn't a situation where they just don't know -- they KNOW they should be communicating better, they just don't appear to want to.

The issues with shipping are excusable -- those can still be attributed to "we're new to this". The issues with not communicating with customers are not, considering they've done the same thing multiple times in the last 5 months or so.

Saying that Plaid Hat has more experience is true. But I'm not saying that MCG is not as good at releasing games as PHG (that's to be expected). I'm saying that PHG kept communication open, which was great, whereas MCG doesn't even seem to want to learn from their own mistakes.

In any event, it's not my job or desire to convince anyone of anything (I've learned that people will largely believe what they want to believe). If MCG's modus operandi is enough for you, who am I to convince you otherwise? Just stating my opinion.


To each their own, yes. But I'd rather have silence, than five updates that are none updates. You know the ones like, "We're still waiting to hear back from the truckers." It's a waste of my time to read that. If they have something to say, they'll say it. I do think they could drop a comment here or there to say "We don't know ..." but I imagine people would lash out at them for that kind of unawareness. As for keeping backers in the loop, this is one of the best ones around. If you've ever seen updates from TMG, your blood might boil.
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kraasn wrote:
But I'd rather have silence, than five updates that are none updates. You know the ones like, "We're still waiting to hear back from the truckers." It's a waste of my time to read that.


I'm knee-deep in Kickstarter projects and I agree with this. In terms of communication, I think what actually works best is a weekly or twice a month message from the developers. Cody from Xia: Legends of a Drift System is a perfect example. Every Friday, I know he'll share something about the status, which might be a bit much for some people but I find it unobtrusive.

For Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients on the other hand, Flying Frog doesn't say much at all. I personally would like more information, but if they have nothing to share other than, "still waiting....", I agree. However, even if the project delivery isn't moving forward with a scheduled date, sharing some concept art, basic information about what team members are working on -- that maintains a line of communication and (I think) helps reduce the cries that the developer has taken the money and run to Australia.
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Magic Pink
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kraasn wrote:
Kolby's correct. It's not comparable. Moreover, compare the number of games/expansions etc. Plaid Hat has released to MCG's one TT game. Practice makes perfect. Watch how much better Mercs: Recon will be handled because Myth was a bit of a train wreck.


Number of projects done has nothing to do with it; the situations are ABSOLUTELY comparable. You're both completely wrong. There are issues with the project getting completed; one company communicates when and what those are; the other doesn't. It's that simple.
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Daniel Kearns
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Phantom Load wrote:
kraasn wrote:
But I'd rather have silence, than five updates that are none updates. You know the ones like, "We're still waiting to hear back from the truckers." It's a waste of my time to read that.


I'm knee-deep in Kickstarter projects and I agree with this. In terms of communication, I think what actually works best is a weekly or twice a month message from the developers. Cody from Xia: Legends of a Drift System is a perfect example. Every Friday, I know he'll share something about the status, which might be a bit much for some people but I find it unobtrusive.

For Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients on the other hand, Flying Frog doesn't say much at all. I personally would like more information, but if they have nothing to share other than, "still waiting....", I agree. However, even if the project delivery isn't moving forward with a scheduled date, sharing some concept art, basic information about what team members are working on -- that maintains a line of communication and (I think) helps reduce the cries that the developer has taken the money and run to Australia.


Totally agree. Cody's weekly Xia updates tell me he is organized and has a plan. Even if I don't scrutinize every part of the update, when I do, it is worthwhile. Easy to delete and feels good to know someone is at the wheel.

Shadows of Brimstone. Great counter example. I'm totally confused as to where this is at. Updates are rare and haphazard. Some were sold/distributed/?? at Gencon and I think they may ship soon. Only, I haven't filled out the survey yet and do not know when that is going to happen. So, how is the shipping going to work? No idea. I overpledged for add-ons, and yeah, no idea about those either. Just really confusing.
 
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Duncan Idaho
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kraasn wrote:
You know the ones like, "We're still waiting to hear back from the truckers." It's a waste of my time to read that.


There's a difference between updating with stuff like that, and updating when things have changed compared to your previous update. So if the prior update said, "We expect it on 8/10, but that could change based on what we hear from our trucking company" I'd expect an update on 8/10. If I don't get one, I start to wonder. If another week goes by and they start handing out incomplete packages at Gen Con without an update, then issues start to crop up.

To the original post, I'm glad Kenny MCG finally wrote something like that. I think it'll help. I don't know why it's a KS post instead of an update, but baby steps.
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JimbobJones wrote:
Shadows of Brimstone surprises me, because I'm a huge Flying Frog fan, and am surprised that they're having so many issues. I'm kind of glad I missed the Kickstarter there, because they should know better than to keep people in the dark.


And this is what bothers me about the whole Myth issue. Flying Frog is a known player in the board gaming business. I feel like people are giving them a TON of slack because of their publishing history.

Mercs Minis - much smaller company, probably relatively unknown to anyone other than TT gamers before the Myth Kickstarter - is getting slammed for running a pretty similar post-KS campaign.

This isn't to say I'm acting as an apologist for them in any way - mistakes were made.

But similar to Myth, you now have people with copies of SoB (both retail and backers) and a huge contingent of backers that haven't even seen a pledge manager yet - and no idea when their copies are arriving.

..and yet, there aren't 37 discussion threads questioning the integrity of Flying Frog or suggesting they intentionally lied to backers or misled people so they could hoard the $1.3 million they raised. Instead (unless I'm missing something) it's "hooray for Flying Frog - can't wait to get my copy...eventually."
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Bryn Edwards
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FFP goes silent if they don't have any details to share. Who wants hundreds of 'still don't know' updates? It's the same with MCG.

From FFP SoB update:
'Working so publicly is strange. While we have done many games and expansions before Shadows of Brimstone, this is by far the biggest project we have ever undertaken. It's also very different working rather publicly. Something that seems to surprise most people is that we don't have details finalized months and years in advance. The truth is that there are always variables with production, shipping, customs, etc. and we never really know for sure that we will have a product until we see it with our own eyes. With many people watching and waiting, it can seem like we are withholding information, but in actuality, there are details that we do not have 100% certainty about yet.'

It seems uncertainty and delays are just part of the business.
 
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Thanasis Patsios
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I never took part in any of Myth's threads before. I understand delays and mistakes are part of the business. I don't really care if I'll have the game in August, September, Christmas or 2015 as a matter of fact.

Nevertheless, I'll never purchase anything else from MCG for 2 reasons:

1) Communication: it doesn't take a learning curve nor process. Either you do it properly or you don't. These people continuously don't. Being busy (with loading, unloading, Gencon, personnal issues) is the lamest and most unprofessional excuse.

2) Dishonesty: The fiasco with EU/RotW backers. When they decided to send the base game only to US backers, I was bummed ofcourse, but I understood. Afterall, it was the logical thing to do. They even came up with this "EU customers won't get the core game now, but they'll enjoy the complete package first, even if it's 6-8 months after". I felt they were handling it ok, considering the circumstences.
Now it turns out, everything EU customers were told were lies (containers arriving directly from China, stuff airfreighted to Germany etc). RotW have already started shipping, US will follow in a week and EU backers will (hopefully) get theirs sometime in late September.

It's not the wait I'm having a problem with, I've got tens of other games to play. It's the attitude. Like we're second class somehow. Even now, there isn't a single mentioning on EU backers, not even an explanation about the process they promised to go through, but didn't at the end. Like we don't even exist!

I won't allow myself to be treated like that again as a customer/backer/investor whatever. As the saying goes, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...
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Daniel Kearns
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Phantom Load wrote:
JimbobJones wrote:
Shadows of Brimstone surprises me, because I'm a huge Flying Frog fan, and am surprised that they're having so many issues. I'm kind of glad I missed the Kickstarter there, because they should know better than to keep people in the dark.


And this is what bothers me about the whole Myth issue. Flying Frog is a known player in the board gaming business. I feel like people are giving them a TON of slack because of their publishing history.

Mercs Minis - much smaller company, probably relatively unknown to anyone other than TT gamers before the Myth Kickstarter - is getting slammed for running a pretty similar post-KS campaign.

This isn't to say I'm acting as an apologist for them in any way - mistakes were made.


Well, if Shadows of Brimstone is a hot steamy mess on delivery like Myth, you'll hear from me but I don't have reason to believe that's the case.

EDIT: to clarify, it so much easier to forgive rare communication if the end product isn't all jacked up.
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Jimbob wrote:
Shadows of Brimstone surprises me, because I'm a huge Flying Frog fan, and am surprised that they're having so many issues. I'm kind of glad I missed the Kickstarter there, because they should know better than to keep people in the dark.


What issues? Why would you want to miss that kickstarter (unless you didn't like the look of the game)?
If I ran a kickstarter I wouldn't talk to the "backers" either. Have you looked at a lot of kickstarters? 95% of the self entitled crap they come up with is a waste of everyones time.
I expect "work time" to be used to get the product developed and into my hands, not spending hours upon hours answering outrage about why the free plastic pig didn't come pre-glued into base from some wood duck who thinks Kicstarter is some sort of dating app.
So thank you FFP for just shutting up and getting on with making the goddamn game!
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Just to be clear, I didn't say what you've quoted me on.
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dkearns wrote:
Phantom Load wrote:
JimbobJones wrote:
Shadows of Brimstone surprises me, because I'm a huge Flying Frog fan, and am surprised that they're having so many issues. I'm kind of glad I missed the Kickstarter there, because they should know better than to keep people in the dark.


And this is what bothers me about the whole Myth issue. Flying Frog is a known player in the board gaming business. I feel like people are giving them a TON of slack because of their publishing history.

Mercs Minis - much smaller company, probably relatively unknown to anyone other than TT gamers before the Myth Kickstarter - is getting slammed for running a pretty similar post-KS campaign.

This isn't to say I'm acting as an apologist for them in any way - mistakes were made.


Well, if Shadows of Brimstone is a hot steamy mess on delivery like Myth, you'll hear from me but I don't have reason to believe that's the case.



Remember that we're only getting the base games for that, and they have barely hinted at when they think the rest will come in. If everything goes wonderfully, I expect that the base games will be a little bit less late than myth to the US and the rest may very well take longer than itsome taking to get the rest of myth.

Otoh, they aren't making as many inevitably wrong promises.

I get the feeling that ffp just doesn't feel like they owe us as much communication, which is working in their favor because they tell us fewer things that end up being wrong.

We'll see how this goes, because this is equivalent to back in January when things were just a little late but everything was on the boat to start delivery.

They haven't screwed up yet because they haven't had any deliverables yet.
 
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Phantom Load wrote:
Just to be clear, I didn't say what you've quoted me on.


My appologies, messed up my tags.
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