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Five Tribes» Forums » General

Subject: Direct Attacks rss

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Justin K
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Unfortunately I didn't catch this title at GenCon but this caught my eye in the aftermath and I must say I'm pretty interested. I've read the rules and BGG reviews but have a question for those that have actually played.

Normally, direct attacks are a very quick way to make me dislike an otherwise "pure" strategy/optimization game, and choosing an opponent to use assassins on in a 4 player game seems like exactly the type of mechanic I massively dislike.

Have people found this to be an issue here? One thing I noticed while reading the rules was that it seemed reasonable to simply disallow using assassins on held meeples, instead allowing assassins to be used only on meeples still on the board. Would this house rule hurt the game flow at all?

Any insight into the thought process behind the design of assassins would be interesting to hear as well!
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trevor

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Well I didn't get a chance to play this game but by reading the rules and reviews I don't see it as being a huge deal.

Honestly I can't see killing other people's meeples as being that big a deal, since you can only kill one anyway. It seems to me to be better to pick a tile to take over with the assassins or aim for that one strategic white or yellow meeple kill.

There are a lot of ways to score points, and I think killing off other's meeples doesn't seem like it would be a worthwhile use of your turn, unless like I said it is some key yellow meeple or a white meeple with someone who has a strong djin
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Dave Eisen
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kops wrote:
Unfortunately I didn't catch this title at GenCon but this caught my eye in the aftermath and I must say I'm pretty interested. I've read the rules and BGG reviews but have a question for those that have actually played.

Normally, direct attacks are a very quick way to make me dislike an otherwise "pure" strategy/optimization game, and choosing an opponent to use assassins on in a 4 player game seems like exactly the type of mechanic I massively dislike.

Have people found this to be an issue here? One thing I noticed while reading the rules was that it seemed reasonable to simply disallow using assassins on held meeples, instead allowing assassins to be used only on meeples still on the board. Would this house rule hurt the game flow at all?

Any insight into the thought process behind the design of assassins would be interesting to hear as well!



I think it's fine as is. Even though I have the same predilections as you.

In most cases, it is not just better but is much better for a player to use assassins against meeples on the board. More board control, more ability to grab a tile for yourself. The times when doing it to another player makes more sense seem to be reasonable places for attacks: a little bit of hitting the player in front of you very late in the game, possibly denying someone use of a very good special power they were counting on.

I could see a problem in some groups where hitting other players and the fun therefrom is a higher priority than winning. But one can hope that this does not reflect the people you generally game with.

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bruno cathala
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I confirm that in most of cases, it's much more interesting to kill à meeple on the board than in front of an opposent.

And if you don't like to be tagetted this way, you can choose not to play viziers (yellow) or to take control of the djinn which protects you against attacks
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Dan King (The Game Boy Geek)
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Last night we played a game where 1 person had 4 Viziers (yellow tribesman) and the rest of us had 2. In succession, two of us with 2 yellow activated assassins and killed her yellow so after that we all had 2. It was a good move for us, but she wasn't too happy. But she still had time to collect more.

I agree most of the time killing the meeple on the board is better, but in the instance as above, once in a while its worth killing someone elses.
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Justin K
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Bruno des Montagnes wrote:

And if you don't like to be tagetted this way, you can choose not to play viziers (yellow)


Aside from missing the point (my issue is with the mechanic itself, not with being targeted--winning because my rival has his Vizier sniped is just as lame as having my own sniped), telling me that I can avoid the mechanic by intentionally playing suboptimally is a pretty awful response...
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Dan King (The Game Boy Geek)
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Not going down the Vizier path is not sub-optimal play. That's what makes this game great. There is no optimal or sub-optimal strategy. They all work on their own, or in combination with others depending on what the board/tribes or what your opponents leave you.
 
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Dave Eisen
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dkingnu wrote:
Not going down the Vizier path is not sub-optimal play. That's what makes this game great. There is no optimal or sub-optimal strategy. They all work on their own, or in combination with others depending on what the board/tribes or what your opponents leave you.


Choosing at game start to not go down the Vizier path is very much sub-optimal, or at least I hope the game is balanced such that it is.

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trevor

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kops wrote:
Bruno des Montagnes wrote:

And if you don't like to be tagetted this way, you can choose not to play viziers (yellow)


telling me that I can avoid the mechanic by intentionally playing suboptimally is a pretty awful response...


Isn't this what you are saying with your 'house rule' of not attacking others?

If you don't like it, house rule it, if you don't like house rules..........I got nothing, don't play the game
 
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Justin K
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dkeisen wrote:
dkingnu wrote:
Not going down the Vizier path is not sub-optimal play. That's what makes this game great. There is no optimal or sub-optimal strategy. They all work on their own, or in combination with others depending on what the board/tribes or what your opponents leave you.


Choosing at game start to not go down the Vizier path is very much sub-optimal, or at least I hope the game is balanced such that it is.



Yup, this is 100% what I was getting at.

bigGameGeek wrote:
kops wrote:
Bruno des Montagnes wrote:

And if you don't like to be tagetted this way, you can choose not to play viziers (yellow)


telling me that I can avoid the mechanic by intentionally playing suboptimally is a pretty awful response...


Isn't this what you are saying with your 'house rule' of not attacking others?

If you don't like it, house rule it, if you don't like house rules..........I got nothing, don't play the game


No... the house rule I suggested in the OP was to disallow anybody from killing another player's Vizier (so Assassins can only be used on meeples still on the board). Bruno suggested that I simply don't collect any Viziers so I can't be targeted. Not at all the same.
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John Richard
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kops wrote:
dkeisen wrote:
dkingnu wrote:
Not going down the Vizier path is not sub-optimal play. That's what makes this game great. There is no optimal or sub-optimal strategy. They all work on their own, or in combination with others depending on what the board/tribes or what your opponents leave you.


Choosing at game start to not go down the Vizier path is very much sub-optimal, or at least I hope the game is balanced such that it is.



Yup, this is 100% what I was getting at.

bigGameGeek wrote:
kops wrote:
Bruno des Montagnes wrote:

And if you don't like to be tagetted this way, you can choose not to play viziers (yellow)


telling me that I can avoid the mechanic by intentionally playing suboptimally is a pretty awful response...


Isn't this what you are saying with your 'house rule' of not attacking others?

If you don't like it, house rule it, if you don't like house rules..........I got nothing, don't play the game


No... the house rule I suggested in the OP was to disallow anybody from killing another player's Vizier (so Assassins can only be used on meeples still on the board). Bruno suggested that I simply don't collect any Viziers so I can't be targeted. Not at all the same.


Well, to be fair, your original post is essentially suggesting to change the definition of "optimal play" for this game by removing one of the options to get points that already exists within the rules. I think Bruno was just making a suggestion to accomodate your desire without having to change the rules to the game that he's spent considerable time and effort to develop. I would call that a "kind and generous" response, not a "pretty awful" one...

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bruno cathala
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Frankly speaking, i apologize if my answer, suggesting not to go on yellow majority competition if you fear to be targeted by assassins, seemed not fair enough.

It was absolutely not sarcastic, but a real suggestion: on some games, i play myself this way, and believe me, it doesn't affect my wining ratio. Just have to concentrate me on other strategies.

Don't forget that i try always to answer the soonest and the best as possible to questions connected to my games, but that i'm not writing in my native langage. I'm not so confortable with english and cannot write with all the subtleties i would like to master.

So.. "pretty awful"... well.. ;-))
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Alejandro G.
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OP,

You could always post your suggested "fix" in the Variants section instead of making snide remarks to the designer...
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Shoosh shoo
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This post made me laugh

To the original poster of the thread... If u dont like the idea of targwtting other players or being targeted i dont think you need to be concerned. Yes it is just as good a strategy to NOT go for viziers. You could go for merchants and markets instead and try to get large sets (a complete 9 card set is worth 60 points!) So there is a strong counter to going for viziers.

In my games there haasnt been too much targeting of players. Maybe we are just in experienced but a lot of times people will kill meeples on the board for getting tile control. You could even kill off the last meeples on the huge 12 and 15 point tiles this way to take control and get lots of points that way!

The beaauty of this game is the multiple paths to victory. The board is always changing and your strategy has to be flexible. If someone focuses on attacks they Will surely lose. 3-4 attacks in a game is the most ive seen personally sp u have nothing to fear.
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