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BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » Women and Gaming

Subject: Neuro plasticity-when it's time to change something for the better rss

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Janice Parks
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My daughter brought this article to my attention recently and I've been thinking about it.


http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/22/5926193/women-gaming-harass...


It offers insight from professional women in the game industry about men as industry coworkers , fans and - frankly - 'social misfits'. I use the word 'misfit' with misgiving because I don't like to think badly about anyone.

Gentlemen, if you decide to read the article would you also take a moment to consider ways in which you might be condoning or using behavior that might be antisocial in nature?

People in this venue have a unique opportunity, due to it's multinational readership and interest, to change the world! Or, failing that, to at least change a little of the space between our own ears.

Even though the article above is written about video gamers I think boardgamers can draw from it some similarities. I know some of us think of their fellow boardgamers as a more sophisticated lot. I would not disagree (!) which is why I'm perturbed at the lack of policy on prejudice or why it's so easy to squelch a legitimate voice.

Using thumbs as a way to keep from personally having to read a disharmonious post is one thing as there is a choice to exclude that post from your own view. But using a limited jury of thumbs from non-selected potentials is another. It could be seen as a sophisticated way to manipulate the population 'legitimately'.

Imagine in the deep south seventy years ago where an all white male jury is specifically and publicly selected to decide the fate of an accused black man. Those juries made the law. Thumbers, here, don't even have to sidestep that kind of inconvenience to my knowledge.

Another form of sophisticated manipulation done by some is to get a few of it's 'gang' to salt their selected target with contraband which allows the powers that be to perform their squelching task.


Is this okay with you?











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Dave B
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I agree with the first half of your post. These kinds of discussions need to happen. People need to know what is going on and understand the issues. I am disgusted and appalled by the harassment and hostility the women in the article received, and even more appalled that that kind of thing is so prevalent. And I know it's not limited to gaming communities or industries. It's still all too prevalent in all sorts of arenas and venues. All a man has to do is listen to women and he will find that out pretty quickly.

I'm not sure I understand what the second half of your post is getting at, the part from "Using thumbs" on. Could you elucidate?

Thanks!
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Derry Salewski
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Hah. I like the salting bit. There's totally a number of people who let their like minded brethren do the trolling, and then pounce once anyone has tripped off the high road a bit.

At least that's how I'm reading that analogy. Haven't actually read the article yet.
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Janice Parks
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agramore wrote:
I agree with the first half of your post. These kinds of discussions need to happen. People need to know what is going on and understand the issues. I am disgusted and appalled by the harassment and hostility the women in the article received, and even more appalled that that kind of thing is so prevalent. And I know it's not limited to gaming communities or industries. It's still all to prevalent in all sorts of arenas and venues. All a man has to do is listen to women and he will find that out pretty quickly.

I'm not sure I understand what the second half of your post is getting at, the part from "Using thumbs" on. Could you elucidate?

Thanks!


Hiya Dave,

As it concerns the 2nd half of my post I think Derry said it very well. I don't think I can improve on it.

As for the first half of yours- there are people who get 'it' and those who don't. Thank you for for being counted among the former.

Hugs!
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Daniel Kearns
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Thank you for posting the link.

I'm working on my own self awareness of this issue and just very helpful.
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Dave B
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Thanks, Janice.
It's easy for me to say those things (because I believe them), but, as they say, talk is cheap. More important is how a person acts. The best we can each do is do our best, and listen and learn, and treat each other with respect and fairness*.

* disclaimer: this is not meant to be an exhaustive all-inclusive list
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Amy
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Playing video games is my geek hobby of choice, so I find this all particularly depressing. I try not to dwell on it all too much including the harassment that female gamers far too often encounter especially in some games. It isn't because I don't want to be aware, but I don't want my own playing experiences tainted too much.

But it does change my playing behavior. I hardly ever talk in public games to help disguise my gender. I may object to certain things in the chat channel, but I hardly ever "smack talk" in chat even in jest. I'm well aware that I have a target on my back and I try to keep it hidden as much as possible.

I've often considered a position in the video game industry over the years. But between the stories of development teams being run into the ground and the harassment women can face in the industry, I've never seriously pursued it.
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Jacq L
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agramore wrote:
The best we can each do is do our best, and listen and learn, and treat each other with respect and fairness.


Not to be a butt, but I think we can do better. Calling out bad behavior when we see it in others is soso important to making more spaces visibly safe/good/respectful.
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Janice Parks
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[q="Renwmn"]Playing video games is my geek hobby of choice, so I find this all particularly depressing. I try not to dwell on it all too much including the harassment that female gamers far too often encounter especially in some games. It isn't because I don't want to be aware, but I don't want my own playing experiences tainted too much.

But it does change my playing behavior. I hardly ever talk in public games to help disguise my gender. I may object to certain things in the chat channel, but I hardly ever "smack talk" in chat even in jest. I'm well aware that I have a target on my back and I try to keep it hidden as much as possible.

I've often considered a position in the video game industry over the years. But between the stories of development teams being run into the ground and the harassment women can face in the industry, I've never seriously pursued it. [/q


The issue of '' changing '' is one of the most important points in the article. Thanks, Ren, for adding how the threat of hostility alters your gaming.

Instead of fostering a respectful kind attitude toward each other there seems to be no interest in drawing a line in the sand, pointing to it, and saying to all that there will be none of that mess here...wherever 'here' is and ANYwhere 'here' is.
Without this policy or law ( enforced ) there will be no change among social misfits, in my opinion. They have no motivation to change and, in probability, without imposed limitations, they may become an even more sophisticated movement. Hey, Hitler started somewhere. Am I wrong?

I don't propose heavy-handedness, but I do think it starts with a line in the sand that's enforced. For God's sake, how much longer should it take for people to stand up against the social misfits who are ruining it for everyone else?

Someone suggested to me that part of it is indu$try ba$ed. That concept is so unbelievably stupid and evil I cannot even imagine how it could be true.
To what end? It would imply a level of social engineering to limit their market base and I just don't see that happening - at least not to capitalists.














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Derry Salewski
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Well hitler's taking us pretty close to rsp territory here

It's hard to talk about on this site, though, because there really is a huge community that is pretty dared respectful and keeps the line in the sand fairly well drawn. And moderators that do a pretty good job. Which is why I'm here, and not on silly other sites. Which of course makes it harder to self police the bad areas if the people best suited to policing excuse themselves from dealing with it. Rich people don't usually go live in slums, even though they probably could make a dent in poverty if they wanted to.

But what's a social misfit? In a lot of cases, I think we mean child that hasn't grown up as far as his or her age would suggest they should have. Kids of all ages, races, genders are little jerks to each other. We don't invest money to stop that. We just try to keep it from getting too violent.

And then there's videogames, who for the most part make their money by selling things to kids, keeping people doing fairly kid like activities longer than they probably should, or reselling the experience of being a kid to people who have grown up.

It doesn't surprise me terribly that a market of relatively immature people intersects with childish behavior.

The article . . . I don't remember it all. Stories of pretty much illegal behavior that would be illegal if the cop actually saw someone do it. A transgender person describing what they deal with anywhere. Eh, bad, but I personally don't see it happening or do it, so I'm not sure how I'll be able to help much other than to keep not doing it and thinking I'd step up if I saw it.

I dunno. I'm not going to post about my job online, but let's say that being a male working mostly with women make some extra careful of what I say, and extra tolerant of things women talk about.

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Judy Krauss
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we three wrote:
Renwmn wrote:
Playing video games is my geek hobby of choice, so I find this all particularly depressing. I try not to dwell on it all too much including the harassment that female gamers far too often encounter especially in some games. It isn't because I don't want to be aware, but I don't want my own playing experiences tainted too much.

But it does change my playing behavior. I hardly ever talk in public games to help disguise my gender. I may object to certain things in the chat channel, but I hardly ever "smack talk" in chat even in jest. I'm well aware that I have a target on my back and I try to keep it hidden as much as possible.

I've often considered a position in the video game industry over the years. But between the stories of development teams being run into the ground and the harassment women can face in the industry, I've never seriously pursued it.



The issue of '' changing '' is one of the most important points in the article. Thanks, Ren, for adding how the threat of hostility alters your gaming.

Instead of fostering a respectful kind attitude toward each other there seems to be no interest in drawing a line in the sand, pointing to it, and saying to all that there will be none of that mess here...wherever 'here' is and ANYwhere 'here' is.
Without this policy or law ( enforced ) there will be no change among social misfits, in my opinion. They have no motivation to change and, in probability, without imposed limitations, they may become an even more sophisticated movement. Hey, Hitler started somewhere. Am I wrong?

I don't propose heavy-handedness, but I do think it starts with a line in the sand that's enforced. For God's sake, how much longer should it take for people to stand up against the social misfits who are ruining it for everyone else?

Someone suggested to me that part of it is indu$try ba$ed. That concept is so unbelievably stupid and evil I cannot even imagine how it could be true.
To what end? It would imply a level of social engineering to limit their market base and I just don't see that happening - at least not to capitalists.



Up until quite recently here, the admin's policy for dealing with sexual harassment and misogynistic posts was to tell the women to flag and ignore it, while posting nothing to say that it was not acceptable behavior. If a woman did stand up against the posts, she was warned to stop, advised to delete her post(s), and often suspended. The threads would just get worse with more guys posting sexist remarks until the threads were abandoned by women and/or were closed. It's still not great (women are still told to basically shut up about it), but at least the admin now will sometimes post a public warning saying that sexist posts are unwelcome on BGG.
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Jude wrote:

Up until quite recently here, the admin's policy for dealing with sexual harassment and misogynistic posts was to tell the women to flag and ignore it, while posting nothing to say that it was not acceptable behavior. If a woman did stand up against the posts, she was warned to stop, advised to delete her post(s), and often suspended. The threads would just get worse with more guys posting sexist remarks until the threads were abandoned by women and/or were closed. It's still not great (women are still told to basically shut up about it), but at least the admin now will sometimes post a public warning saying that sexist posts are unwelcome on BGG.


hmmmm... On one hand, I am on the side of "do not feed the trolls" - that usually does more harm than good in my experience. On the other hand, sweeping things under the rug or just hoping they will go away doesn't do much good either (understatement). I think it's better to have a stated policy against harassment and against the creation of a hostile environment, just like workplaces are required to do in the US. I would go further and say there needs to be action taken to build a welcoming environment and culture of respect. And that policy has to be strongly supported by words and deeds on the part of any authority, like forum admins, as well as general membership. Admins should be more proactive about warnings and other disciplinary actions. What kind of community do we want? I for one want one where people of all sorts of genders, races, orientations, etc., feel they are among friends.
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Janice Parks
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scifiantihero wrote:
Well hitler's taking us pretty close to rsp territory here

It's hard to talk about on this site, though, because there really is a huge community that is pretty dared respectful and keeps the line in the sand fairly well drawn. And moderators that do a pretty good job. Which is why I'm here, and not on silly other sites. Which of course makes it harder to self police the bad areas if the people best suited to policing excuse themselves from dealing with it. Rich people don't usually go live in slums, even though they probably could make a dent in poverty if they wanted to.

But what's a social misfit? In a lot of cases, I think we mean child that hasn't grown up as far as his or her age would suggest they should have. Kids of all ages, races, genders are little jerks to each other. We don't invest money to stop that. We just try to keep it from getting too violent.

And then there's videogames, who for the most part make their money by selling things to kids, keeping people doing fairly kid like activities longer than they probably should, or reselling the experience of being a kid to people who have grown up.

It doesn't surprise me terribly that a market of relatively immature people intersects with childish behavior.

The article . . . I don't remember it all. Stories of pretty much illegal behavior that would be illegal if the cop actually saw someone do it. A transgender person describing what they deal with anywhere. Eh, bad, but I personally don't see it happening or do it, so I'm not sure how I'll be able to help much other than to keep not doing it and thinking I'd step up if I saw it.

I dunno. I'm not going to post about my job online, but let's say that being a male working mostly with women make some extra careful of what I say, and extra tolerant of things women talk about.




I would really LIKE to think that my Hitler-in-training is closer to your Hitler of rsp but what assurances can I ever expect to receive? I suspect none. And, forgive me but I think I'd like to err on the side of protecting those the other side of his chain link fences.

And your grown child, perhaps, looks an awful lot like the guy who publicized a woman's address for all to see just because he knew it would terrify her enuf to keep her from going out. And just because men know what contributes to this or that guy's antisocial behavior doesn't make it something women will ever excuse as acceptable. Frankly, Derry, I don't think anyone should find it acceptable.

Would you believe that I can often overlook childish behavior for what it is...childish behavior. But my daughter and her friends are terribly terribly bothered by it! It is so distressing to know how little this topic is discussed with a goal toward a solution or two!


My tablet battery is dying so cya'll later! Hugs!

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Derry Salewski
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Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.
 
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Judy Krauss
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scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Women who kill (or even wound) men, even in self-defense and/or in fear for their lives, are usually given strong punishment and long jail terms, in addition to being treated as dangerous lunatics and horrible people by the media. Men who kill or otherwise harm women are usually given little to no jail time (and often the charges are dropped or never filed), and excuses are made for their behavior (even when they are blatantly misogynistic) by judges, the media, and just about everyone else, and they receive sympathy for having their lives ruined (or almost ruined) by the women who dared to accuse them when they were just being "boys".
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Derry Salewski
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Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Women who kill (or even wound) men, even in self-defense and/or in fear for their lives, are usually given strong punishment and long jail terms, in addition to being treated as dangerous lunatics and horrible people by the media. Men who kill or otherwise harm women are usually given little to no jail time (and often the charges are dropped or never filed), and excuses are made for their behavior (even when they are blatantly misogynistic) by judges, the media, and just about everyone else, and they receive sympathy for having their lives ruined (or almost ruined) by the women who dared to accuse them when they were just being "boys".


My anecdotal evidence of light news perusing doesn't exactly suggest it's as one sided as that.

 
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scifiantihero wrote:
Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Women who kill (or even wound) men, even in self-defense and/or in fear for their lives, are usually given strong punishment and long jail terms, in addition to being treated as dangerous lunatics and horrible people by the media. Men who kill or otherwise harm women are usually given little to no jail time (and often the charges are dropped or never filed), and excuses are made for their behavior (even when they are blatantly misogynistic) by judges, the media, and just about everyone else, and they receive sympathy for having their lives ruined (or almost ruined) by the women who dared to accuse them when they were just being "boys".


My anecdotal evidence of light news perusing doesn't exactly suggest it's as one sided as that.



It's even worse when you take rapes into account. Men often aren't aware because it doesn't affect them as much and most men have been conditioned to think that male violence against women is normal but violence by women is monstrous. And as for "news" -- the media is highly biased, as I mentioned above, so if you only "peruse" the mainstream media, you would never realize.
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Derry Salewski
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Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Women who kill (or even wound) men, even in self-defense and/or in fear for their lives, are usually given strong punishment and long jail terms, in addition to being treated as dangerous lunatics and horrible people by the media. Men who kill or otherwise harm women are usually given little to no jail time (and often the charges are dropped or never filed), and excuses are made for their behavior (even when they are blatantly misogynistic) by judges, the media, and just about everyone else, and they receive sympathy for having their lives ruined (or almost ruined) by the women who dared to accuse them when they were just being "boys".


My anecdotal evidence of light news perusing doesn't exactly suggest it's as one sided as that.



It's even worse when you take rapes into account. Men often aren't aware because it doesn't affect them as much and most men have been conditioned to think that male violence against women is normal, but violence by women is monstrous. And as for "news" -- the media is highly biased, as I mentioned above, so if you only "peruse" the mainstream media, you would never realize.


Just read the local paper. Most violence here is drug or mental health related anyway.

But really it's a little beside my point, which was more about ways to help someone FEEL safe. But again, not a woman, so I don't know if it will work.

It's kind of scary how much information about us is out there anyway. I don't have any ideas about how to police it.

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Jude wrote:
If a woman did stand up against the posts, she was warned to stop, advised to delete her post(s), and often suspended.


Not by default. Only if the response itself also violated forum rules.

Civil responses are always welcome, however if is often difficult to resist lowering oneself to someone else's level when confronted with offensive posts.

Nothing about this has changed.
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Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Women who kill (or even wound) men, even in self-defense and/or in fear for their lives, are usually given strong punishment and long jail terms, in addition to being treated as dangerous lunatics and horrible people by the media. Men who kill or otherwise harm women are usually given little to no jail time (and often the charges are dropped or never filed), and excuses are made for their behavior (even when they are blatantly misogynistic) by judges, the media, and just about everyone else, and they receive sympathy for having their lives ruined (or almost ruined) by the women who dared to accuse them when they were just being "boys".


My anecdotal evidence of light news perusing doesn't exactly suggest it's as one sided as that.



It's even worse when you take rapes into account. Men often aren't aware because it doesn't affect them as much and most men have been conditioned to think that male violence against women is normal, but violence by women is monstrous. And as for "news" -- the media is highly biased, as I mentioned above, so if you only "peruse" the mainstream media, you would never realize.


Men's awareness, or lack thereof, is quite central to this study done regarding college men's attitudes towards women and rape (or what they believed/rationalized was not rape).

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/18/339593542/the-pow...

Here is an excerpt;
Quote:
One of the most well-known studies on perpetrators of campus sexual assault is psychologist David Lisak's 2002 "undetected rapists" study. Because few campus rapes are ever reported, much less prosecuted, Lisak looked for sex offenders hiding in plain sight at University of Massachusetts in Boston.

He surveyed about 1,800 men, asking them a wide range of questions about their sexual experiences. To learn about sexual assault, he asked things like, "Have you ever had sex with an adult when they didn't want to because you used physical force?" When the results came back, he was stunned.

All told, 120 men in the sample, or about 6 percent of the total, had raped women they knew. Two-thirds of those men were serial rapists, who had done this, on average, six times. Many of the serial rapists began offending before college, back in high school.

Other studies at colleges and in the military have since found similar numbers — usually somewhere around 10 percent of men admitting to either an attempted rape or a rape, with a significant proportion of them reporting a history of repeated offenses.

"I was forced, really, to accept that these are college students, but there is this small percentage of college students who are sex offenders," says Lisak. "They are behaving like sex offenders. They are sex offenders."

Together, the 120 men in Lisak's study were responsible for 439 rapes. None was ever reported.

But Lisak had no problem getting details about how the men carefully planned and executed their assaults. They'd often ask a girl to come to a party, saying it was invite-only, a big deal to a nervous freshman. Then they'd get her drunk to the point of incapacitation so they could have sex with her.

In an excerpt from one of Lisak's interview transcripts, a college student using the pseudonym Frank talks about how his friends would help him prep for an assault:

"We always had some kind of punch, you know, like our own home brew. We'd make it with a real sweet juice, and just pour in all kinds of alcohol. It was really powerful stuff. The girls wouldn't know what hit them."
Alcohol was the weapon of choice for these men, who typically saw themselves as college guys hooking up. They didn't think what they had done was a crime.

"Most of these men have an image or a myth about rape, that it's some guy in a ski mask wielding a knife," says Lisak. "They don't wear ski masks, they don't wield knives, so they don't see themselves as rapists."

In fact, they'd brag about what they had done afterwards to their friends. That implied endorsement from male friends — or at the very least, a lack of vocal objection — is a powerful force, perpetuating the idea that what these guys are doing is normal rather than criminal.


I apologize if I am intruding or making an inappropriate post. I will remove this post if requested too.
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J Young
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Jude wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Women who kill (or even wound) men, even in self-defense and/or in fear for their lives, are usually given strong punishment and long jail terms, in addition to being treated as dangerous lunatics and horrible people by the media. Men who kill or otherwise harm women are usually given little to no jail time (and often the charges are dropped or never filed), and excuses are made for their behavior (even when they are blatantly misogynistic) by judges, the media, and just about everyone else, and they receive sympathy for having their lives ruined (or almost ruined) by the women who dared to accuse them when they were just being "boys".


This is very interesting and a phenomenon I have never given much thought. Is there any more information you can provide? I am not even sure what terms/phrases to use in a search.
I am thinking about using "women", "violence", and "punishment", but I do not think that is specific enough. However, I will find out. Thanks!

(Edited to include the quote so my comment would make more sense.)
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Judy Krauss
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Octavian wrote:
Jude wrote:
If a woman did stand up against the posts, she was warned to stop, advised to delete her post(s), and often suspended.


Not by default. Only if the response itself also violated forum rules.

Civil responses are always welcome, however if is often difficult to resist lowering oneself to someone else's level when confronted with offensive posts.

Nothing about this has changed.


Oh, that is not true and you know it, Matthew. angry

Up until very recently (and that only changed, I believe, because enough women got fed up and very angry):

Women were often warned that they were "derailing" a thread and should consider removing their posts if they pointed out that the use of the misogynistic words (bitch, whore, slut) and sexist "jokes" were derogatory terms about women, even though many men would then jump in to bully the protester or claim that she was over-reacting. You would never post a public warning in the threads enforcing the "bigotry, including sexism, is forbidden" forum rules, even though we practically begged you to. You would tell us to just flag the post and ignore it, and a worse thing was that you would "explain" to those of us who tried to correspond with you about it, how it wasn't "bigotry" but only "offensive". Meanwhile, women could get the unexpected "pleasure" of encountering sexist crap just about anywhere they tried to read threads and geeklists on BGG, but weren't allowed to do anything about it. So many left, and many of the remainder hang out mostly in the W&G forum (which also only exists because a woman advocated for a "safe" place here for women).

And when men would troll in threads that we started, you would let them do it until it got so bad that the women would leave, and then you would lock the thread without any explanation of why (except stating sometimes that you felt everyone had a chance to have their say and nothing new of note was being added shake ), so the trolls all had their say and chance to abuse us, and with no indication that they had done anything wrong, and they even felt encouraged that they had had a good "discussion" that they had won. Many of our threads were ruined this way.

You were extremely resistant to even making the small change of sometimes admitting when posts are sexist/misogynistic and posting the bigotry/sexism isn't "welcome" here warning. It has helped though, now that you do it.

So, maybe nothing about your reactions to "uncivil" responses has changed, but there have been important changes towards bigoted posts and sexist comments and jokes, and that is appreciated, Matthew. Just don't imply that it has alway been like that, since it's been a very recent change.
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Janice Parks
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scifiantihero wrote:
Well no, that guy is the one in the illegal section I mentioned. And should be dealt with as such. But I'm not a cop and don't go to crappy websites . . . so don't get to deal with it too often.

It doesn't help that the world has a pretty terrible mental health system. We don't care until they're seriously abused. Or Destroying property. Or shooting up a school. Or being creepers on the internet. (My line of work, my previous line of work, the news, people talking on this thread.)

My advice to myself if I was being stalked, is to go down to that gunshow they had this weekend in my town and buy a couple. But I'm a six foot five three hundred pound guy.

I dunno if that same advice works for a woman. If some creep wants to be a creep put a slug in his crotch. Makes up for not being the better evolved hunter.


Ugh! You mentioned mental illness so I'm going to use this opportunity to apologize that even though I FULLY intended to pay everyone my FULL attention I find that the above mentioned illness is going on in my house by a dear one ( not my daughter ) and I have to promise try to come back later after leaving you all this short note.

I am so sorry!

P.S. we don't have guns in our house for a reason.
...since you mentioned guns.
and...
P.S.S. I *am* the only full time mental health care system we're ever likely to get or afford. Sometimes, like this past few weeks especially, I would love to visit my own dear 'patient' somewhere ELSE. Oh well.
and...
P.S.S.S. in the meantime, as it concerns this thread, part of being respectful is agreeing to be honest and ernest because, like I said, people are really upset about this.

Later!





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Judy Krauss
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Best wishes, Janice.
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Matthew M
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Jude wrote:

So, maybe nothing about your reactions to "uncivil" responses has changed, but there have been important changes towards bigoted posts and sexist comments and jokes, and that is appreciated, Matthew. Just don't imply that it has alway been like that, since it's been a very recent change.


I certainly didn't mean to imply that - and I don't think what I wrote comes off that way. I quoted the specific section of your post that I was responding to - ie implying that women received warnings merely for responding. That part is simply not true.

I'm glad to have made the other changes and agree that they are an improvement.
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