Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Wargameroom - list of rule errors rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
msg tools
mb
While playing TS on Wargameroom I've come across a few errors in the program's implementation of the game's rules. Some of these errors could be taken advantage of against a player who is not aware of them (especially item 1, which prompted me to post this list), which I would consider unfair. Therefore I've decided to post here the complete list of such issues that I know of - all except item 6 discovered personally. That way, even if a bug changes the result of the game, at least both players will have had a good chance to be prepared for it and adjust their play.

This post is not meant in any way to criticize Bruce's amazing work on the Wargameroom program. Our game is so complex, with situations requiring rulings by the game creators years after the game was released, that it's not possible to foresee all possible errors.
I've already emailed Bruce about these, with save games included, so hopefully the next version will contain the fix.

Scenarios:

1. USSR plays Star Wars, with USA ahead in space. US player chooses "How I learned..." from the discard pile, sets DEFCON to 1, but the USSR is declared the winner even though the USA should be the victor.
It's possible that the same error can appear by "How I learned..." being drawn by Soviet played Grain Sales or Grain Sales/Star Wars -> Missile Envy -> "How I learned...", but the troublesome nature of setting up the scenario prevented me from checking it.


2. During an action round (not headline) USA plays Grain Sales, gets UN Intervention, but is unable to use it for the event with a Soviet event from his hand, even though FAQ clearly states that is should be able to do so.
It's possible that the same error can appear by UN Intervention being drawn by Missile Envy/Star Wars - not verified.


3. WWBY is played for event and at the beginning of the US action round, during which he should discard UN Intervention, USSR has at least 17 VP advantage. If the US doesn't hold the UN Intervention in hand, the game ends with information "The USA does not have the UN Intervention card" without letting the US play its round - even though it might be possible to save the game by retrieving the UN Intervention via Grain Sales, Star Wars or possibly even Missile Envy.


4. Same as above, but USSR has less than 17 VP advantage - in that case the US is allowed to play his round and the -3 VP are awarded only afterwards. It is then possible for US to score some VPs in his round, possibly reaching +20 VP (or play Wargames) and winning the game, even though it is stated on the WWBY card "USSR gains 3 VP prior to any US VP award" [not verified that the game is indeed won for the US, but seems plausible due to the order the information about VP gains is displayed].


5.
[not exactly an error, but should be implemented differently] - When a player is under Quagmire/Bear Trap and has only 1 card eligible for discard, this card is discarded immediately, thus revealing to an observant opponent that the player is stuck under Quagmire/Bear Trap at least until the end of the current turn.
It should be done like in case of Missile Envy, where even if there is only one card that can be legally given to the opponent, the program waits for the player to manually acknowledge this fact.

6. [Reported by Eruantalon] It is not possible to select a Soviet event from the discard pile with Star Wars, even though nothing in the event description seems to forbid it. If there are only Soviet events on the discard pile, the US player should be forced to pick one anyway.

Please correct me if there are rulings making any of these scenarios correct.

[edit: added item 6]
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
#3 appears to be correct. The VPs are awarded before the US plays.


But I will say that I have total faith that Bruce will fix these. Posting a list like this might give people the wrong idea, especially if they just see that title. For such fringe cases, I'd say the best idea is just to email Bruce (which it seems you already did) and give him time. If he didn't fix them after you notified him, then OK, maybe a title like that would be justified, but give him some time first (especially for such a popular program).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mateenyweeny
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Raks Raks Raks
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think that the first two paragraphs make the intent of the thread pretty clear.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slinkydink wrote:
I think that the first two paragraphs make the intent of the thread pretty clear.


I'm worried about people just seeing the title and getting the wrong idea or just seeing that there are occasionally bugs and not wanting to use the program.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
msg tools
mb
MD1616 wrote:
#3 appears to be correct. The VPs are awarded before the US plays.


Exactly, whereas they should be awarded only "before any US VP award". US should be allowed to play the UN Intervention event to cancel the 3 VP penalty. Or to play Star Wars and draw UN from discards. Or to play Grain Sales and hope to draw UN from enemy. At least that's what the official FAQ says:
http://www.gmtgames.com/p-419-twilight-struggle-deluxe-editi...


MD1616 wrote:

But I will say that I have total faith that Bruce will fix these. Posting a list like this might give people the wrong idea, especially if they just see that title. For such fringe cases, I'd say the best idea is just to email Bruce (which it seems you already did) and give him time. If he didn't fix them after you notified him, then OK, maybe a title like that would be justified, but give him some time first (especially for such a popular program).


Some of these error might be indeed fringe cases, but scenario 1 is kind of a big one. It changes the correct result of the game. And since both ETSL and ITSL rules state something along the lines of "the result stays regardless of any Wargameroom bugs" I have considered it best for the bug to become publicly known so noone loses a game like that.
Although I am convinced that most of the people here would demonstrate fair play and concede a game "won" like this.
Besides, AFAIK Bruce is a busy man and it might take him quite a while to reimplement the program.
I admit that it might have been better for the title of my post to be formulated differently, though.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eruantalon _
msg tools
mb
Also if USSR plays Star Wars and only USSR event's are in discard pile (or USSR events and scoring cards), Wargameroom client do not forces USA player to resolve a chosen USSR event, which should be done. Instead it treats it as a null event (nothing happens, like in case when Independent Reds are played, and USSR has no influence in any of affected countries).

Important note - WGR client is tremendous program, created basically for free and I am not trying to criticize it in any way, just notify of an error, that might use a correction or needs to be accounted for by players before it's correction and am sure, Ziemowit's intentions were identical.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conor Hickey
Ireland
Dublin
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
lukiluk_TS wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
#3 appears to be correct. The VPs are awarded before the US plays.


Exactly, whereas they should be awarded only "before any US VP award". US should be allowed to play the UN Intervention event to cancel the 3 VP penalty. Or to play Star Wars and draw UN from discards. Or to play Grain Sales and hope to draw UN from enemy. At least that's what the official FAQ says:
http://www.gmtgames.com/p-419-twilight-struggle-deluxe-editi...



The FAQ actually states:

Quote:
The USSR earns 3 points Victory points the moment the US does not play UN
Intervention. Since the text of We Will Bury You was played prior to Duck and Cover, its
text must be resolved first. Therefore, the USSR player wins an automatic victory.


So the Wargameroom program is correct: either the US plays UN Intervention as an event, or the USSR immediately gets 3 VP.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
msg tools
mb
TwoShedsJackson wrote:

So the Wargameroom program is correct: either the US plays UN Intervention as an event, or the USSR immediately gets 3 VP.


I was referring to a different fragment from FAQ:
"The U S player could can pull UN Intervention with Missile Envy , Star Wars or Grain Sales , and if he is able to discard a soviet event along with it he would be able to cancel the victory points from We Will Bury You."

Current Wargameroom version only checks if the UN Intervention card is physically in the US player's hand. If it is not (and USSR leads by at least 17 VP), the game ends before US action round, even if the US player has Star Wars, has some Soviet event, is ahead in space and UN Intervention is on the discard pile.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
msg tools
mb
Eruantalon wrote:
Also if USSR plays Star Wars and only USSR event's are in discard pile (or USSR events and scoring cards), Wargameroom client do not forces USA player to resolve a chosen USSR event, which should be done.


Yeah, that too - added to the list in the first post as item 6. Although I would prefer to see a ruling about it - does anyone know of such a ruling?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eruantalon _
msg tools
mb
I would clarify - not only it currently can't be done on purpose, but it seems, if only USSR events are available, USA player should be forced to chose one of them. Don't really think a ruling is necessary, as the text of card is pretty clear.

"If the US is ahead on the Space Race Track, the US player uses this Event to look through the discard pile, pick any 1 non-scoring card and play it immediately as an Event."

There is no MAY as in Wargames.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
msg tools
mb
Version 7.0 is out and from the changelog it seems that most (if not all) errors have been fixed.
Thanks, Bruce!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wojciech Pietrzak
msg tools
lukiluk_TS wrote:
Current Wargameroom version only checks if the UN Intervention card is physically in the US player's hand.


With the game played via the Internet and managed digitally as a series of 0 and 1 bits, what do you exactly mean by 'physically'?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.