John Choong
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Hiya everyone,

I am getting to the game if CoC after a long hiatus and have a few questions that needed clarifications. Hope you can help.

Cthylla and Uroborus
1. First I want to know how the Action of Uroborus work. Does his Action remain open to activation in the discard pile? Or must you have an another active Uroborus on the board first before you can put into play an Uroborus from the discard pile in the insane state when there are 3 Serpent characters in that pile.

2. Second, if I am allowed to have Uroborus come back in an insane state, does this mean I can activate Cthylla's ability to sacrifice the face-down Uroborus (which is technically a character with no text, no Icons, no skill and no cost), have it enters into my discard pile, and then bring it back up again into play face-down to be sacrificed later in the next phase (since Cthylla's ability can only be activated once per phase). If this can be done, this can potentially be dangerous to the opponent as a Cthylla's player can force the opponent to discard 5 times in Refresh, Draw, Resource, Operation, and Story phase.

Iputiak
3. How does Iputiak work? For example, if a player play Deep One Rising and target a character of mine, will my character be destroyed first before I can choose another character to be affected? I am not clear with the wording "...exhaust Iputiak to copy that effect choosing another character as the target of the effect.

4. Also, in another situation, my opponent activate Cthulhu, Lord of R'lyeh by paying 3 to force me to sacrifice a character. I don't think Iputiak will work because the effect to sacrifice does not allow me to force my opponent to discard a character from play as I cannot choose (unless I want to sacrifice another one of my character.

5. What happen if my opponent play Deep One Assault and choose to destroy one of my character? Can I redirect the effect to another character and save my targeted character? Or my character has to be destroyed before Iputiak's ability can take effect? Must I pay for the effect by exhausting my domain or that I can already choose a character of my opponent to be destroyed?

Scotophobia
6. The card Scotophobia states "Action: Until the end of the phase, each character controlled by an opponent loses all of its printed Terror icons." My question can it cause Deep One characters to lose their Terror icons gained from Shadowed Reef since those icons are not printed?

Rotting Away Story Card
7. The text says "Each player sacrifice all characters with printed skill 2 or lower. What happen to characters with skill increase beyond 2 by some modifier effects or do we ignore those modifier and only consider the printed value.
 
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Logan Daugherty
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Welcome back to a great game!

1) Uroborus' Action remains open in the discard pile.

2) One of my favorite combos. Yes, an card in an insane state is considered a character and thus valid for any effects targeting a character provided they meet the requirements. It is quite devastating but I have a deck built around this combo and many have beaten easily enough. Especially rush decks.

3) Ipiutak reads: "Response: After a character you control was chosen as the only target of a triggered effect, exhaust Ipiutak to copy that effect choosing another character as the target of that effect." The response window is after an action is executed so therefore your character would be destroyed. However, then you would be able to target another character, copying the effect, not cancelling it.

4) Yes, after you have chosen (designating a targeting effect), then you would be able to force your opponent to choose. However, you would have to pay three to do so.

5) No, the effect is copied, not cancelled. Your character will be destroyed before Ipiutak can be triggered. Hmm, the cost "X" is interesting. I'm not sure if you could only copy the cost your opponent paid or if you would have to pay as well.

6) No, printed refers only to icons physically printed on the card itself.

7) Only the actual printed cost is considered.

And if I didn't get any of those right, I'm sure someone will correct me.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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1. Good question. I always assumed it could be triggered from the discard pile, but maybe I was wrong.

2. I don't see why not. Fcking evil, that is.

6. & 7. "Printed" means printed. So Scotophobia doesn't eliminated granted icons from Shadowed Reef, and characters with printed skill of 2 are still vulnerable to Rotting Away even if they've been buffed with Forbidden Shrines or whatever.
 
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Greynomad38 wrote:
3) Ipiutak reads: "Response: After a character you control was chosen as the only target of a triggered effect, exhaust Ipiutak to copy that effect choosing another character as the target of that effect." The response window is after an action is executed so therefore your character would be destroyed. However, then you would be able to target another character, copying the effect, not cancelling it.

4) Yes, after you have chosen (designating a targeting effect), then you would be able to force your opponent to choose. However, you would have to pay three to do so.

5) No, the effect is copied, not cancelled. Your character will be destroyed before Ipiutak can be triggered. Hmm, the cost "X" is interesting. I'm not sure if you could only copy the cost your opponent paid or if you would have to pay as well.

Regarding 4) I think you actually don't have to pay 3 to copy the effect. I've had a similar discussion before and the issue is, whether the cost is part of the effect or if it is separate:

Quote:
Action: Pay 3 to force each opponent to choose and sacrifice a character.
Imho, 'Pay 3' is the cost and 'force each opponent to choose and sacrifice a character' the effect. You're already paying a cost by exhausting Ipiutak after all.

5) The effect is copied with X = 0. This is a rules question that was answered by Damon: FFG Official Answers
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John Choong
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Thanks for the clarification. As much as I thought (based on what forum has mentioned), paying the cost for an effect and the effect itself are two separate thing. I believe Iputiak copy on the effect and ignore any cost requirement.

However, with regards to Cthulhu, Lord of Rl'yeh, I don't think I can effectively copy his ability. The Cthulhu player pays 3 resource and force me to sacrifice my character. After choosing one of my character to sacrifice, I activate Iputiak and copy its effect. The issue of contention here is Iputiak require me to choose another character to be affected by the copied effect. However, in the context of sacrifice, I don't choose which of my opponent's character to be sacrificed and therefore disallow Iputiak to effectively function in this case UNLESS if the action of choosing another character does not have to be made by the controller of Iputiak. What do you guys think? Can Iputiak work to copy Cthulhu's ability?

Uroborus
By the way, I was just reading the recent FAQ, and Uroborus is made to be unique by FFG. So this may affect my decision whether to have 2 or 3 copies.
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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brighknight_216 wrote:
By the way, I was just reading the recent FAQ, and Uroborus is made to be unique by FFG.

Crap! Sad for my serpents.

In fact, I'll have to adjust a deck I just designed (and was planning to build next week: a Cthulhu/Miskatonic affair called Adders Multiply.
 
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Daniel Ach
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brighknight_216 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. As much as I thought (based on what forum has mentioned), paying the cost for an effect and the effect itself are two separate thing. I believe Iputiak copy on the effect and ignore any cost requirement.

However, with regards to Cthulhu, Lord of Rl'yeh, I don't think I can effectively copy his ability. The Cthulhu player pays 3 resource and force me to sacrifice my character. After choosing one of my character to sacrifice, I activate Iputiak and copy its effect. The issue of contention here is Iputiak require me to choose another character to be affected by the copied effect. However, in the context of sacrifice, I don't choose which of my opponent's character to be sacrificed and therefore disallow Iputiak to effectively function in this case UNLESS if the action of choosing another character does not have to be made by the controller of Iputiak. What do you guys think? Can Iputiak work to copy Cthulhu's ability?

Uroborus
By the way, I was just reading the recent FAQ, and Uroborus is made to be unique by FFG. So this may affect my decision whether to have 2 or 3 copies.


You should write in to FFG (rules question link to ask. There is a conflict between the person choosing the target of Cthulhu's copied effect. It may require a FAQ entry.
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Jason Conlon
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brighknight_216 wrote:
2. Second, if I am allowed to have Uroborus come back in an insane state, does this mean I can activate Cthylla's ability to sacrifice the face-down Uroborus (which is technically a character with no text, no Icons, no skill and no cost), have it enters into my discard pile, and then bring it back up again into play face-down to be sacrificed later in the next phase (since Cthylla's ability can only be activated once per phase). If this can be done, this can potentially be dangerous to the opponent as a Cthylla's player can force the opponent to discard 5 times in Refresh, Draw, Resource, Operation, and Story phase.

Greynomad38 wrote:
2) One of my favorite combos. Yes, an card in an insane state is considered a character and thus valid for any effects targeting a character provided they meet the requirements. It is quite devastating but I have a deck built around this combo and many have beaten easily enough. Especially rush decks.

Carthoris wrote:
2. I don't see why not. Fcking evil, that is.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but sacrificing insane characters to Cthylla doesn't work...
While an insane Uroborus is a valid target to be sacrificed (as he is still considered a 'character') as the cost to trigger Cthylla's ability, unfortunately insane characters have no "printed cost" (i.e. the face-down card is blank and therefore has an indeterminate cost), so your opponent is unable to choose a character with a cost that is greater than or equal to something that cannot be determined and does not have to sacrifice anything.
To make this work combo work you need to add something like Arkham Asylum that can restore Uroborus to repeat the cycle (for as many times as you can afford to pay to restore him).

As a side note, sacricing an insane Uroborus to Temple of R'lyeh doesn't work either, though for a different reason... Temple of R'lyeh requires the sacrifice of a 'Cthulhu' character, and unfortunately insane characters only retain their title (e.g. "Uroborus"), uniqueness (e.g. 'unique') and card type (e.g. "Character") - they do not retain their faction, and so while insane Uroborus is no longer a 'Cthulhu' character but is of no faction.
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jasonconlon wrote:
unfortunately insane characters have no "printed cost" (i.e. the face-down card is blank and therefore has an indeterminate cost), so your opponent is unable to choose a character with a cost that is greater than or equal to something that cannot be determined and does not have to sacrifice anything.
Damn, you're right. That's something I overlooked as well. Good thing I didn't get back to finishing my Uroborus deck, yet...
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John Choong
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jasonconlon wrote:
brighknight_216 wrote:
2. Second, if I am allowed to have Uroborus come back in an insane state, does this mean I can activate Cthylla's ability to sacrifice the face-down Uroborus (which is technically a character with no text, no Icons, no skill and no cost), have it enters into my discard pile, and then bring it back up again into play face-down to be sacrificed later in the next phase (since Cthylla's ability can only be activated once per phase). If this can be done, this can potentially be dangerous to the opponent as a Cthylla's player can force the opponent to discard 5 times in Refresh, Draw, Resource, Operation, and Story phase.

Greynomad38 wrote:
2) One of my favorite combos. Yes, an card in an insane state is considered a character and thus valid for any effects targeting a character provided they meet the requirements. It is quite devastating but I have a deck built around this combo and many have beaten easily enough. Especially rush decks.

Carthoris wrote:
2. I don't see why not. Fcking evil, that is.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but sacrificing insane characters to Cthylla doesn't work...
While an insane Uroborus is a valid target to be sacrificed (as he is still considered a 'character') as the cost to trigger Cthylla's ability, unfortunately insane characters have no "printed cost" (i.e. the face-down card is blank and therefore has an indeterminate cost), so your opponent is unable to choose a character with a cost that is greater than or equal to something that cannot be determined and does not have to sacrifice anything.
To make this work combo work you need to add something like Arkham Asylum that can restore Uroborus to repeat the cycle (for as many times as you can afford to pay to restore him).

As a side note, sacricing an insane Uroborus to Temple of R'lyeh doesn't work either, though for a different reason... Temple of R'lyeh requires the sacrifice of a 'Cthulhu' character, and unfortunately insane characters only retain their title (e.g. "Uroborus"), uniqueness (e.g. 'unique') and card type (e.g. "Character") - they do not retain their faction, and so while insane Uroborus is no longer a 'Cthulhu' character but is of no faction.


As far as I know, with reference to the rulebook, it is stated that an insane character has 0-cost and 0-skill despite ut being facedown and not having printed cost or skill. Howevet, for Temple of Rl'yeh, I understand you cannot trigger its ability using insane characters due to the rule stating that character in insane state has no faction.
 
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David Boeren
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From the FAQ:

An insane character’s skill, text box,
cost, and icons cannot be modified.
Although it still counts as a character
under your control, it is always treated
as having 0 skill, 0 cost, no icons, no
subtypes, no text box, and no faction,
regardless of any effects in play. Insane
characters may be targeted by any
effect that targets a character, but any
part of the effect that would modify the
card’s basic statistics is ignored.


So they are cost 0, but have no printed cost. Since Cthylla's ability references printed cost it will not work on an insane character.
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Daniel Ach
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dboeren wrote:
From the FAQ:

An insane character’s skill, text box, cost, and icons cannot be modified. Although it still counts as a character under your control, it is always treated as having 0 skill, 0 cost, no icons, no subtypes, no text box, and no faction, regardless of any effects in play. Insane characters may be targeted by any effect that targets a character, but any part of the effect that would modify the card’s basic statistics is ignored.


So they are cost 0, but have no printed cost. Since Cthylla's ability references printed cost it will not work on an insane character.


It's one of the wonkier rules (I mean, it could just as easily be a rule that you pick up the insane character to see its printed cost/skill/icons/etc., if an effect refers to "printed" but be that as it may...) however that is the case. Whenever you try to check for printed anything on an insane character, it returns a null value. This is important for Cthylla because not being able to reference anything results in null targets. In step 1B of the timing chart for effects, you designate eligible and legal targets or cards to be affected. Since there is no eligible target for the effect, it cannot be triggered in the first place.
 
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