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Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Timing issue in applying zombie overun survivor casualties rss

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Gordon Watson
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I am the betrayer and in exile - I have an exile victory condition that replaces the zero morale objective with a possessing item requirement and I'm obviously in an outside location - during the 'Add Zombies' part of the Colony phase enough zombies will be added that will mean my last character dies and therefore I will lose the cards in my hand needed for my victory objectives.

zombie Situation 1 - during the Colony Phase (Resolving crises) the group fails the crises resulting in more zombies being added to the colony which results in survivor casualties that reduce morale to zero which ends the game immediately. As this happens before the 'Add Zombies' step I assume I win as I have not lost my cards yet and my char is still alive, even though he/she will die in the next step of the Colony phase when the 'Add Zombies' effect is actioned.

zombie Situation 2 - The groups survives the crises but then will suffer a survivor death during the 'Add zombies' phase when one of the Colony entrances is overrun. My last survivor will also die in this step when his location is overrun and I lose my cards. Does the adding of zombies to the colony happen before the adding of zombies to the outside locations - and thus I would still win - or do the colony and location casualties get applied simultaneously, in which case we all lose?

Sorry for all the words - and if this has been asked before.
 
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Brandon Alderman
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Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.
 
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Baker Odom
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Alderdust wrote:
Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.


You are correct about the rounds or morale but the game does NOT end immediately when the main objective is reached. You only check the main objective during the appropriate time during the round.
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Nathan Woll
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Alderdust wrote:
Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.


This answers Scenario 1 but doesn't address Scenario 2.

What zombies are added first - Colony or Non-Colony?
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Greg
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nswoll wrote:
Alderdust wrote:
Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.


This answers Scenario 1 but doesn't address Scenario 2.

What zombies are added first - Colony or Non-Colony?


I would think that the entire "add zombie" step has to be completed.
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Nathan Woll
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Hahma wrote:
nswoll wrote:
Alderdust wrote:
Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.


This answers Scenario 1 but doesn't address Scenario 2.

What zombies are added first - Colony or Non-Colony?


I would think that the entire "add zombie" step has to be completed.


(which is in contradiction to the rule mentioned above, hence the question)
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Greg
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nswoll wrote:
Hahma wrote:
nswoll wrote:
Alderdust wrote:
Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.


This answers Scenario 1 but doesn't address Scenario 2.

What zombies are added first - Colony or Non-Colony?


I would think that the entire "add zombie" step has to be completed.


(which is in contradiction to the rule mentioned above, hence the question)


But I guess my point is that how would you decide which happens first if it were to be able to be separate times when zombies overrun? They are overrunning at the same time, so that's why I said to complete the add zombie phase.

 
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Rico Besteher
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When two game effects seem to trigger simultaneously, the one with the first player token decides which happens first. That rule is quite ingenious.

(see Card Text, p. 15)
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Jim Bobson
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nswoll wrote:
Hahma wrote:
nswoll wrote:
Alderdust wrote:
Please see the rules for exact text but ... As soon as morale reaches 0, the rounds reach 0 or the main objective is complete the game immediately ends.


This answers Scenario 1 but doesn't address Scenario 2.

What zombies are added first - Colony or Non-Colony?


I would think that the entire "add zombie" step has to be completed.


(which is in contradiction to the rule mentioned above, hence the question)


I think he's trying to say that all zombies are added simultaneously. So the colony was overrun and the non-colony was overrun at the exact same time. They don't have to be mutually exclusive
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Greg
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EvilIthron wrote:
When two game effects seem to trigger simultaneously, the one with the first player token decides which happens first. That rule is quite ingenious.

(see Card Text, p. 15)


But it's not two game effects is it? Adding zombies is 1 of the 7 effects.

Page 12 under Colony Phase: During the colony phase, resolve the following 7 effects in order.

1. Pay Food
2. Check Waste
3. Resolve Crisis
4. Add Zombies
5. Check Main Objective
6. Move Round Tracker
7. Pass First Player Token


Placing zombies at the colony or non-colony aren't two different game effects, they are part of the same colony phase effect.

Besides, secret objectives aren't supposed to be revealed, hinted at etc. When the add zombie phase starts, is the exiled betrayer going to say "wait, wait" "hey first player, where are we going to place zombies first, the colony or the non-colony locations?"

"why, does it matter?"

"uh...maybe"

There's no way the non-betrayer 1st player would know that there are 2 game "results" depending on where the zombies were placed first because secret objectives are secret.

Also, what if there are other non-betrayer survivors at the non-colony locations as well and placing zombies there would have the same effect as placing them at the colony, with survivors dying and morale hitting zero? Also, say the betrayer is at the third location and then even if they decided to go non-colony first, they put them on the third one first and the betrayer gets pissed because it wasn't done in order.
 
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Vincent
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Adding Zombies is an effect and your doing it multiple times (for each locations), so it counts as two game effects. So the first player can decide which location gets the zombies first.
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Jim Bobson
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the_vinman wrote:
Adding Zombies is an effect and your doing it multiple times (for each locations), so it counts as two game effects. So the first player can decide which location gets the zombies first.


No, adding zombies is ONE game effect that you are applying in multiple locations. Still only one game effect. How can it conflict with itself?

The only reason that this is causing confusion is because people add zombies location by location, one or two at a time. If you had a zombie dropping machine like a bowling pin resetter, then it would drop all zombies down instantaneously and you would apply all results against those. In this instance, the colony losing and the betrayer losing are not mutually exclusive, they just both lost at the exact same time because of the same ONE game effect.
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Gordon Watson
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EvilIthron wrote:
When two game effects seem to trigger simultaneously, the one with the first player token decides which happens first. That rule is quite ingenious.

(see Card Text, p. 15)


One slight niggle about applying this in the case of the timing within the 'Add Zombie' step, is that the 'rule' appears under 'Card Text', rather than categorically as a global rule under 'First Player' abilities.

I was pretty sure that Situation 1 would result in the betrayer winning due to the 'immediately end the game' part of reaching zero morale.

Situation 2 probably needs a definitive designer/publisher ruling - I am inclined to think that all of the zombies should be added at all locations simultaneously, even though the rules deal with adding to the colony first and the fact that you 'add the zombies one by one' - which sort of implies a 'timing' aspect to the process.
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Rico Besteher
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you're all quite nitpicky ..

Firstly: the win condition is on a card.

secondly: zombies are not added simultaneously. see barricades.

thirdly: even if zombies were added simultaneously; the following stuff happens:
add zombies -> effect: people die
this effect has two further effects, that would seem to trigger simultaneously:
a) morale drops
b) cards are lost

one of them ends the game immediately, preventing the other from happening.
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Andrei Koenig
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EvilIthron wrote:
you're all quite nitpicky ..

Firstly: the win condition is on a card.

secondly: zombies are not added simultaneously. see barricades.

thirdly: even if zombies were added simultaneously; the following stuff happens:
add zombies -> effect: people die
this effect has two further effects, that would seem to trigger simultaneously:
a) morale drops
b) cards are lost

one of them ends the game immediately, preventing the other from happening.


So in the Situation 2 in the OP, does the betrayer win?
 
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Ryan M
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Mangoose wrote:
the_vinman wrote:
Adding Zombies is an effect and your doing it multiple times (for each locations), so it counts as two game effects. So the first player can decide which location gets the zombies first.


No, adding zombies is ONE game effect that you are applying in multiple locations. Still only one game effect. How can it conflict with itself?

The only reason that this is causing confusion is because people add zombies location by location, one or two at a time. If you had a zombie dropping machine like a bowling pin resetter, then it would drop all zombies down instantaneously and you would apply all results against those. In this instance, the colony losing and the betrayer losing are not mutually exclusive, they just both lost at the exact same time because of the same ONE game effect.


I totally agree.

Also, the rules clearly state "Whenever adding zombies, they are added 1 at a time until ALL zombies that need to be added have been added. So there is no real order in this situation. All zombies must be added to the game regardless of location.
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Andrei Koenig
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Mools wrote:
Mangoose wrote:
the_vinman wrote:
Adding Zombies is an effect and your doing it multiple times (for each locations), so it counts as two game effects. So the first player can decide which location gets the zombies first.


No, adding zombies is ONE game effect that you are applying in multiple locations. Still only one game effect. How can it conflict with itself?

The only reason that this is causing confusion is because people add zombies location by location, one or two at a time. If you had a zombie dropping machine like a bowling pin resetter, then it would drop all zombies down instantaneously and you would apply all results against those. In this instance, the colony losing and the betrayer losing are not mutually exclusive, they just both lost at the exact same time because of the same ONE game effect.


I totally agree.

Also, the rules clearly state "Whenever adding zombies, they are added 1 at a time until ALL zombies that need to be added have been added. So there is no real order in this situation. All zombies must be added to the game regardless of location.


Mark and Ryan, I agree theoretically with your view on how its done. So in OP's Situation 2, everyone loses, including the betrayer?
 
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Rico Besteher
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koenigcitizen wrote:
EvilIthron wrote:
you're all quite nitpicky ..

Firstly: the win condition is on a card.

secondly: zombies are not added simultaneously. see barricades.

thirdly: even if zombies were added simultaneously; the following stuff happens:
add zombies -> effect: people die
this effect has two further effects, that would seem to trigger simultaneously:
a) morale drops
b) cards are lost

one of them ends the game immediately, preventing the other from happening.


So in the Situation 2 in the OP, does the betrayer win?


first Player decides, if a or b happens first. If she says a, then the betrayer wins. else everyone loses.

(imo)
 
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Ryan M
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koenigcitizen wrote:
Mark and Ryan, I agree theoretically with your view on how its done. So in OP's Situation 2, everyone loses, including the betrayer?


That would be my take. All zombies must be placed. You place them one at a time to make sure all the proper placement rules and over-runs occur, but you still must place all zombies. Based on the OP's situation, that would mean the location of the OP would be overrun and he would die, as would any colonists if the colony gets over run. All those deaths occur. In this case the game wouldn't end the second morale hits 0. It would end once all zombies have been placed and any/all deaths have occurred.

Essentially, as some others have said, the place zombie phase occurrs all at once. There is technically no timing or special order of locations. All zombies must be placed. It is only handled one at a time to ensure proper placing and effects are played out.

That is my take on it though. I think the rules are pretty clear in that all zombies must be placed. You don't stop placing zombies mid phase because someone dies and morale drops to 0. My feeling is the intent of the "game ends immediately if morale drops to 0" rule is to prevent people from questioning whether they finish the round or whether they get to finish their turn, etc.

Also it makes no sense to me that you would halt the zombie phase the second morale hits 0. That not only leads to strange situations like the one we are debating now, but what if morale is at 1 or 2 and multiple zombies overrun the colony? Do you stop after 1 or 2 zombies break through and then that third person who should have died gets away? What if they are the betrayor? Would they win even though they should have died if all zombies were added? What if someone wins if so many surivors are left when game ends? Does that person potentially win if more should have died but didn't because the game was stopped the second 0 morale was hit?

None of this makes any sense to me and creates all kinds of overly complicated situations. The rules state all zombies that should be added get added.
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It sounds like what people are proposing is that win/loss criteria are only checked at the end of a given step -- ie, you don't check win/loss in the middle of the add zombies step.

That's an interesting proposal and one that could be clearly stated in the rules.
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Ellyemem wrote:
It sounds like what people are proposing is that win/loss criteria are only checked at the end of a given step -- ie, you don't check win/loss in the middle of the add zombies step.

That's an interesting proposal and one that could be clearly stated in the rules.


That seems to make the most sense. The last thing we need is more gaming of the system.
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James Sitz
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Assuming you have to play all the zombies, this gives you a reason to have some high influence guys.
 
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My preferred interpretation of just about any ruleset is the one that does the most harm to the rules lawyer intent on gaming the system.

So, i vote for everyone including betrayer loses in this case. :-D
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benstylus wrote:
My preferred interpretation of just about any ruleset is the one that does the most harm to the rules lawyer intent on gaming the system.

So, i vote for everyone including betrayer loses in this case. :-D


No one is trying to game the system . . .

There are two rules that are contradictory so we just need the designer to weigh in and say which one has precedence.
 
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nswoll wrote:
benstylus wrote:
My preferred interpretation of just about any ruleset is the one that does the most harm to the rules lawyer intent on gaming the system.

So, i vote for everyone including betrayer loses in this case. :-D


No one is trying to game the system . . .

There are two rules that are contradictory so we just need the designer to weigh in and say which one has precedence.


But if you have timing of zombies then you will definitely have gaming the system. Take it to the next level and do you now have to do the buildings in exact order?
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