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Subject: Help me understand: Senate tie breaker rule. rss

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Enon Sci
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I'm typing off my phone, otherwise I'd quote the rules directly, but in anticipation of the arrival of my copy of Trajan, I'm reading the PDF for the second edition. In it, under senate scoring, it says ties are broken by order in the stack, with primacy going to the person higher in said stack.

At first glance that seems natural, if a bit arbitrary, but doesn't this effectively reward the slower player? I appreciate this is, in part, a reward to players further back in turn order. However, if somebody hits 8 points in round one, should they get the goods over somebody who slipped in at the last second?

Just trying to understand.

P.S. Additional question:

During end of quarter scoring, the rules say to discard Senate tiles whether they were used or not. Why wouldn't they have been used? I thought the analysis of them was automatic if they existed.

Is this just silly wording, or am I missing something?
 
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Michael Denman
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Yes, if two players have the same number of votes in the Senate, the one who got there last wins the tie. You might think it odd, but I've seen the same system before, so it's no biggie to me.

Yes, all senate tiles are used whether you want to or not when the votes are tabulated. I can't see the wording right now, but I guess they were alluding to the idea that even if you were winning the vote anyway and didn't need the senate vote tiles, you still had to use them up.
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Think of it as if the person that surged ahead in the voting at the last minute was more popular hence won the votes.

All votes are "used" although you might not have needed them to win.
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Enon Sci
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Trump wrote:
Yes, if two players have the same number of votes in the Senate, the one who got there last wins the tie. You might think it odd, but I've seen the same system before, so it's no biggie to me.


I too have played games with this approach (Macau comes to mind), but I've never seen it applied to the determination of reward in a race. Generally the first across a finish line gets the spoils, no?

'Course, this probably is a necessity given the non-variablity in Trajan's turn order. Still, if one's aim is to win the senate votes, you're almost incentivised to strategically hold back.
 
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Joe Pastuzyn
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This feature is used in many Feld games, Macao (as noted), Castles of Burgundy and Luna. In Luna, however, the first person who reaches the last position on the Priest track remains in first place with other players putting their token under his for this spot only.
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Murr Rockstroh
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Anarchosyn wrote:
P.S. Additional question:

During end of quarter scoring, the rules say to discard Senate tiles whether they were used or not. Why wouldn't they have been used? I thought the analysis of them was automatic if they existed.

Is this just silly wording, or am I missing something?


It's just a reminder that you don't get to keep these tiles after the end of a quarter no matter what. There are you can keep after they're used (Trajan tiles used to satisfy demands), and others you do not keep after they are used (forum and extra action tiles).
 
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Jon Ben
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Deep Silver wrote:
This feature is used in many Feld games, Macao (as noted), Castles of Burgundy and Luna. In Luna, however, the first person who reaches the last position on the Priest track remains in first place with other players putting their token under his for this spot only.


Luna shares that feature with Macao.
 
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Enon Sci
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JonBen wrote:
Deep Silver wrote:
This feature is used in many Feld games, Macao (as noted), Castles of Burgundy and Luna. In Luna, however, the first person who reaches the last position on the Priest track remains in first place with other players putting their token under his for this spot only.


Luna shares that feature with Macao.


And in neither does it determine the winner of a major VP award. Turn order is one thing, but senate tiles feel a lot heavier.

I get the rule, and don't expect to see it changed. My question was more about design philosophy. I've never seen a Euro where first placement didn't get the major reward people were racing to; late comers usually have to contend with lesser options. Even Trajan adopts this philosophy with both the ships (late comers get the flip side) and legionnaire placements (3 VP less per competitor legionnaire present).
 
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Steve Duff
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Anarchosyn wrote:
I too have played games with this approach (Macau comes to mind), but I've never seen it applied to the determination of reward in a race. Generally the first across a finish line gets the spoils, no?


But it's not a race. There's no set finish line, you can win the most votes without even moving once. It's just a tally at the end of a round.

There's no such concept as "X voted for me before Y voted for you". In a ballot box, you don't know what order folks voted. The order you're reading them in is irrelevant, you're forced to read some before others. In a room full of hands, you have to count in some order, again that order isn't representative of X voted before Y. All voting is technically simultaneous.

Your moving your marker ahead to a spot just represents you gaining support of some folks who will vote for you later, at the end of the round. At best, it's a pre-election "A is leading in the polls" announcement.

As for design choice, of the two options, Feld chose the best one. This tiebreaker gives you the most strategic options. Otherwise there's no choice to be made, moving forward is always the best choice.
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Michael Poplawski
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Anarchosyn wrote:
I've never seen a Euro where first placement didn't get the major reward people were racing to; late comers usually have to contend with lesser options. Even Trajan adopts this philosophy with both the ships (late comers get the flip side) and legionnaire placements (3 VP less per competitor legionnaire present).

Perhaps the way the Senate game works is a nod to Die Macher, a game about elections.

English rules for Die Macher wrote:
The victor in the current election is decided by the number of votes that the parties have gained. The party with most votes wins. If more than one party has the same number of votes, (mostly when two or more parties have got 50 votes), then the last party to get to that number of votes is said to have won by a "Short Head" (literally in German, a nose length).

In any case, elections are about dominating thought, or, when opinions are divided, to influence late in the proceedings, just before the polls. I think Trajan has it right.
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Brian Newman
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I also think of getting Senate influence as "speaking in front of the Senate", and the last one to speak holds stronger in the minds of the senators, so they break the tie.
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