Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
37 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can I use Feedback Pulse In collective month 3 rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Daniel Shaharuddin
United States
California
flag msg tools
If I use Feedback Pulse and destroy the borg with it does it count as mine kill or the borg killing itself and no one can claim it? If its true can you show me where you got the information.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Chest
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Based on what I heard during OP2, damage dealt to the Borg by feedback pulse is considered to be dealt by the Borg token and not by the ship that used feedback. That means that no one would get credit for destroying the token and the fleet point bonus would not be triggered.

If you're going to use feedback pulse, just do it early in the match to make sure it's not the decisive damage and you should be fine.

That being said, if I was playing against you and you had feedback pulse on your best ship, I would likely try to use the BCT to attack your other ships first, or spread the attack dice early to try to control when you use it so that it hopefully favors me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Lin
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
As mentioned in the other posts you made about this;

Feedback Pulse causes the attacker to roll die, as normal. Half of the resulting damage results from the rolling are negated; the other half are applied to the attacker rather then the defender. The source of the damage is the attacker, so the attacker is destroying themselves if this occurs; you do not get credit for the kill.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Shaharuddin
United States
California
flag msg tools
Ok thanks but that sucks you don't get credit
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
People used it just fine in an OP2 I went to. Seems kinda stupid that it supposedly doesn't since it's your card that's using the effect (the Borg isn't blowing up on its own when it attacks unless your card causes it so logically your card is what kills it).

Was there an official ruling on this because I've heard and seen it ruled that it works everywhere except a few posts on this board.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hero Guy
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
People used it just fine in an OP2 I went to. Seems kinda stupid that it supposedly doesn't since it's your card that's using the effect (the Borg isn't blowing up on its own when it attacks unless your card causes it so logically your card is what kills it).

Was there an official ruling on this because I've heard and seen it ruled that it works everywhere except a few posts on this board.


That seems more of an argument in technicalities to me. You're focusing on who is causing the destruction of a ship. However, the rules state that the source of the attack determines who gets credit for the kill. So, if you used cloaked mines, no one would get the kill because it was the mines that killed it. I know, you can't use mines in OP3, but I was just using it as an example. And following this logic, effects like Captain Riker's ability wouldn't trigger either. So really, its not all downside here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
People used it just fine in an OP2 I went to. Seems kinda stupid that it supposedly doesn't since it's your card that's using the effect (the Borg isn't blowing up on its own when it attacks unless your card causes it so logically your card is what kills it).

Was there an official ruling on this because I've heard and seen it ruled that it works everywhere except a few posts on this board.


That seems more of an argument in technicalities to me. You're focusing on who is causing the destruction of a ship. However, the rules state that the source of the attack determines who gets credit for the kill. So, if you used cloaked mines, no one would get the kill because it was the mines that killed it. I know, you can't use mines in OP3, but I was just using it as an example. And following this logic, effects like Captain Riker's ability wouldn't trigger either. So really, its not all downside here.


You don't get credit for cloaked mines?! That's just stupid. I understand mines aren't legal in OP3, but the idea that your mines produced by your card doesn't count as your kill makes no sense. You say it's "not all downside" but I'm not seeing an up-side here. I would never argue that an effect that's generated from your cards doesn't count as a kill. That's like saying someone dying from a Warp Core Breach due to your attack doesn't count as your kill because the breach killed him (even though your crit caused the breach). If I was a TO, I would never rule that way as it follows zero logic. Your card effect (or secondary effects caused by your card) = your kill. Not hard to argue that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hero Guy
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
People used it just fine in an OP2 I went to. Seems kinda stupid that it supposedly doesn't since it's your card that's using the effect (the Borg isn't blowing up on its own when it attacks unless your card causes it so logically your card is what kills it).

Was there an official ruling on this because I've heard and seen it ruled that it works everywhere except a few posts on this board.


That seems more of an argument in technicalities to me. You're focusing on who is causing the destruction of a ship. However, the rules state that the source of the attack determines who gets credit for the kill. So, if you used cloaked mines, no one would get the kill because it was the mines that killed it. I know, you can't use mines in OP3, but I was just using it as an example. And following this logic, effects like Captain Riker's ability wouldn't trigger either. So really, its not all downside here.


You don't get credit for cloaked mines?! That's just stupid. I understand mines aren't legal in OP3, but the idea that your mines produced by your card doesn't count as your kill makes no sense. You say it's "not all downside" but I'm not seeing an up-side here. I would never argue that an effect that's generated from your cards doesn't count as a kill. That's like saying someone dying from a Warp Core Breach due to your attack doesn't count as your kill because the breach killed him (even though your crit caused the breach). If I was a TO, I would never rule that way as it follows zero logic. Your card effect (or secondary effects caused by your card) = your kill. Not hard to argue that.


Well, in most games it doesn't actually matter what eliminated your opponent's ship from play, only that the ship is indeed removed. Your final score is tallied by taking the maximum build total and subtracting what your opponent has left on the map/in play. So whether or not your mines get the credit or you, it makes no difference. If you are playing a multi-player free for all, it might matter, but that's not something you will run into if you are using the standard rules in a standard WK tournament.

The upside is that when your cloaked mines do damage, you aren't subject to effects like Rikers ability or Counter-attack or Feedback Pulse.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
People used it just fine in an OP2 I went to. Seems kinda stupid that it supposedly doesn't since it's your card that's using the effect (the Borg isn't blowing up on its own when it attacks unless your card causes it so logically your card is what kills it).

Was there an official ruling on this because I've heard and seen it ruled that it works everywhere except a few posts on this board.


That seems more of an argument in technicalities to me. You're focusing on who is causing the destruction of a ship. However, the rules state that the source of the attack determines who gets credit for the kill. So, if you used cloaked mines, no one would get the kill because it was the mines that killed it. I know, you can't use mines in OP3, but I was just using it as an example. And following this logic, effects like Captain Riker's ability wouldn't trigger either. So really, its not all downside here.


You don't get credit for cloaked mines?! That's just stupid. I understand mines aren't legal in OP3, but the idea that your mines produced by your card doesn't count as your kill makes no sense. You say it's "not all downside" but I'm not seeing an up-side here. I would never argue that an effect that's generated from your cards doesn't count as a kill. That's like saying someone dying from a Warp Core Breach due to your attack doesn't count as your kill because the breach killed him (even though your crit caused the breach). If I was a TO, I would never rule that way as it follows zero logic. Your card effect (or secondary effects caused by your card) = your kill. Not hard to argue that.


Well, in most games it doesn't actually matter what eliminated your opponent's ship from play, only that the ship is indeed removed. Your final score is tallied by taking the maximum build total and subtracting what your opponent has left on the map/in play. So whether or not your mines get the credit or you, it makes no difference. If you are playing a multi-player free for all, it might matter, but that's not something you will run into if you are using the standard rules in a standard WK tournament.

The upside is that when your cloaked mines do damage, you aren't subject to effects like Rikers ability or Counter-attack or Feedback Pulse.


I can see cloaked mines (or any card that generates a minefield) not triggering counter attacks since it makes sense thematically. Having feedback pulse not counting here just doesn't make any sense. This and OP2 are really the only instances where tracking who does damage make any kind of difference so I don't see why anyone feels the need to do a special ruling that only applies to one use of one card, especially when it doesn't make sense.

You said this earlier:

Hero_guy wrote:
You're focusing on who is causing the destruction of a ship. However, the rules state that the source of the attack determines who gets credit for the kill.


Isn't that the same thing? The source of the damage is the feedback pulse since the attack doesn't normally target itself so whoever uses the pulse should be the one who gets the credit. In a scored match like this the points shouldn't just 'fizzle' and disappear, it should go to one of the players since the condition "destroys the BCT" is met. Thus 40 points should be awarded to a player, which the player using the pulse is the only one who makes sense. Awarding the points to a card (the pulse since it got the kill) or the BCT (since the original dice were thrown from the BCT) doesn't make sense since neither are players.

If a wrestler tripped and knocked himself out in a match, they would claim his opponent the winner. The guy out cold on the ground doesn't win even though he technically scored the knockout nor do they give the win to the floor because that's what physically knocked him out. It goes to his opponent regardless.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Bueckert
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree - it seems like a dumb ruling.

It reminds me of someone grabbing someone's arm and punching that person with that arm and saying "stop hitting yourself".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Nelson
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The BCT gets the points for the kill. And if enough people use feedback pulse, then the BCT might end up winning a Stargazer
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Lin
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
Isn't that the same thing? The source of the damage is the feedback pulse since the attack doesn't normally target itself so whoever uses the pulse should be the one who gets the credit. In a scored match like this the points shouldn't just 'fizzle' and disappear, it should go to one of the players since the condition "destroys the BCT" is met. Thus 40 points should be awarded to a player, which the player using the pulse is the only one who makes sense. Awarding the points to a card (the pulse since it got the kill) or the BCT (since the original dice were thrown from the BCT) doesn't make sense since neither are players.

If a wrestler tripped and knocked himself out in a match, they would claim his opponent the winner. The guy out cold on the ground doesn't win even though he technically scored the knockout nor do they give the win to the floor because that's what physically knocked him out. It goes to his opponent regardless.


In this case, the Source of the Damage is not feedback pulse; feedback pulse simple changes who the target of an attack becomes.

IE: The Cube attacks the player. The Cube is the source of the attack.
Player declares it's going to activate Feedback Pulse.
The Cube rolls its attack die for its attack.
the player rolls their defense die for the cube's attack. (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/15483236#15483236)
Any uncancelled hits are cut in half and the remaining damage is dealt to the Cube's target - which is now the Cube itself, because of Feedback Pulse.

Feedback Pulse is not you making an attack; it is specifically a redirection of an attack. Because Feedback Pulse is not an attack, you can not trigger things that effect or trigger off attacks. (IE: You can not feedback pulse a feedback pulse) Because it is a change of the target for the attack, the source of the attack is still the person who initially declared the attack; in this case, the Cube Token.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D Conklin
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
At the end of the day, if you are in a position to use Feedback Pulse to make the killing blow, likely your opponent will be too on their next turn...

So which is worse, to make the BCT shoot you, Feedback Pulse, and then have the BCT get "credit" for killing itself OR not take the shot but risk the opponent getting the kill?

I'd have to go with FP. Also, deny all knowledge of this thread and let the TO call it.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
dc0nklin wrote:
At the end of the day, if you are in a position to use Feedback Pulse to make the killing blow, likely your opponent will be too on their next turn...

So which is worse, to make the BCT shoot you, Feedback Pulse, and then have the BCT get "credit" for killing itself OR not take the shot but risk the opponent getting the kill?

I'd have to go with FP. Also, deny all knowledge of this thread and let the TO call it.



Yeah, I'm leaving this to the TO. Nothing that's been said here makes the idea of the Borg getting credit for killing itself off your card any less stupid.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hero Guy
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
Isn't that the same thing? The source of the damage is the feedback pulse since the attack doesn't normally target itself so whoever uses the pulse should be the one who gets the credit. In a scored match like this the points shouldn't just 'fizzle' and disappear, it should go to one of the players since the condition "destroys the BCT" is met. Thus 40 points should be awarded to a player, which the player using the pulse is the only one who makes sense. Awarding the points to a card (the pulse since it got the kill) or the BCT (since the original dice were thrown from the BCT) doesn't make sense since neither are players.

If a wrestler tripped and knocked himself out in a match, they would claim his opponent the winner. The guy out cold on the ground doesn't win even though he technically scored the knockout nor do they give the win to the floor because that's what physically knocked him out. It goes to his opponent regardless.


First its not the same thing. The source of the attack is the attacking ship. Feedback Pulse is not an attack of any sort, or else it would trigger effects like Counter Attack. This is a game that is played within defined rules. What the issue here seems to be is that people are having a hard time justifying what would actually be happening in the ST universe. This is not a simulator, though. This is a game that happens to be using the STU as its theme.

The source of the attack is the aggressor. The cause of the destruction is the combination of the aggressor firing and the defender using a card. The game does NOT check for the cause of the destruction, but rather the source of the attack. The importance in there is that if there were ever a card that said something like: "When your ship is attacked, choose any other ship (friendly or opposing) to become the target of the attack instead." and that card caused the BCT to be destroyed, who actually destroyed the BCT here (yes, not possible to target opposing ships with damaging effects, I know)? The one making the attack or the one redirecting the attack?

Your wrestling analogy is also flawed. You are actually discussing who is declared the winner of the match, not who scored what points and why. In STAW its the same, if your opponent has no more ships, regardless of who is credited with the destruction of said ships, you still win. If your opponent purposefully flies his ships off the map, well then obviously they should get the points for destroying them since it wasn't your attack, but rather his flying skills that took out the ship right? Right? And points are awarded, not based on on who is credited with the destruction of any particular ship, but rather the total maximum build minus what your opponent has left. OP3 has created a special case where the source of the attack that destroys the BCT/BST actually matters.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
Griffinman01 wrote:
dc0nklin wrote:
At the end of the day, if you are in a position to use Feedback Pulse to make the killing blow, likely your opponent will be too on their next turn...

So which is worse, to make the BCT shoot you, Feedback Pulse, and then have the BCT get "credit" for killing itself OR not take the shot but risk the opponent getting the kill?

I'd have to go with FP. Also, deny all knowledge of this thread and let the TO call it.



Yeah, I'm leaving this to the TO. Nothing that's been said here makes the idea of the Borg getting credit for killing itself off your card any less stupid.


Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Lin
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.


There was no 'errata' to Feedback Pulse; there were some questions about it's behavior, but there was no change to the behavior of the card. Based on the rules clarifications, this is known about Feedback Pulse:
1) It is not an attack (so you can't trigger things off it that require attacks to be made)
2) The defender still rolls defense die

So from this you can extrapolate:
1) The attacker's original attack is still their original attack
2) It's still the attacker's attack (because you roll defense against it)

None of this was errata or even anything from WizKids to specifically mess with the card for the Op. These were ruling answers given long ago.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
SeijiTataki wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.


There was no 'errata' to Feedback Pulse; there were some questions about it's behavior, but there was no change to the behavior of the card. Based on the rules clarifications, this is known about Feedback Pulse:
1) It is not an attack (so you can't trigger things off it that require attacks to be made)
2) The defender still rolls defense die

So from this you can extrapolate:
1) The attacker's original attack is still their original attack
2) It's still the attacker's attack (because you roll defense against it)

None of this was errata or even anything from WizKids to specifically mess with the card for the Op. These were ruling answers given long ago.


Scoring it this way for an OP scenario is a change of how the normal scoring rules are. Therefore they're making a special exception to how the use of one card gets scored based on the scenario. That is an errata because they're changing the scoring ruled outlined by the scenario to negate the benefit of this card by stating that you don't get points for kills using this card. You've said it yourself that it doesn't matter where the kill comes from in any other game because points are scored based in surviving fleets. So they instituted a rule change regarding how the BCT gets scored based on who killed it and then altered the ruling to state that feedback pulse doesn't count as your kill, making that card have a different effect than how it works in a normal game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hero Guy
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
SeijiTataki wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.


There was no 'errata' to Feedback Pulse; there were some questions about it's behavior, but there was no change to the behavior of the card. Based on the rules clarifications, this is known about Feedback Pulse:
1) It is not an attack (so you can't trigger things off it that require attacks to be made)
2) The defender still rolls defense die

So from this you can extrapolate:
1) The attacker's original attack is still their original attack
2) It's still the attacker's attack (because you roll defense against it)

None of this was errata or even anything from WizKids to specifically mess with the card for the Op. These were ruling answers given long ago.


Scoring it this way for an OP scenario is a change of how the normal scoring rules are. Therefore they're making a special exception to how the use of one card gets scored based on the scenario. That is an errata because they're changing the scoring ruled outlined by the scenario to negate the benefit of this card by stating that you don't get points for kills using this card. You've said it yourself that it doesn't matter where the kill comes from in any other game because points are scored based in surviving fleets. So they instituted a rule change regarding how the BCT gets scored based on who killed it and then altered the ruling to state that feedback pulse doesn't count as your kill, making that card have a different effect than how it works in a normal game.


You've already said that OP3 is not a standard game. You've already said you know that kills don't actually score points in a standard game. So how is this a change that makes the card have a different effect? It NEVER scored any points in ANY game before. It has always been ruled that FBP is not an attack. This is NOT an exception made only for this scenario, it is how the game has always played.

What you propose is actually a change to the rules so that an exception is made for FBP so that it can be considered an attack and that it will qualify as 'the attack' that destroys the BCT/BST.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
SeijiTataki wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.


There was no 'errata' to Feedback Pulse; there were some questions about it's behavior, but there was no change to the behavior of the card. Based on the rules clarifications, this is known about Feedback Pulse:
1) It is not an attack (so you can't trigger things off it that require attacks to be made)
2) The defender still rolls defense die

So from this you can extrapolate:
1) The attacker's original attack is still their original attack
2) It's still the attacker's attack (because you roll defense against it)

None of this was errata or even anything from WizKids to specifically mess with the card for the Op. These were ruling answers given long ago.


Scoring it this way for an OP scenario is a change of how the normal scoring rules are. Therefore they're making a special exception to how the use of one card gets scored based on the scenario. That is an errata because they're changing the scoring ruled outlined by the scenario to negate the benefit of this card by stating that you don't get points for kills using this card. You've said it yourself that it doesn't matter where the kill comes from in any other game because points are scored based in surviving fleets. So they instituted a rule change regarding how the BCT gets scored based on who killed it and then altered the ruling to state that feedback pulse doesn't count as your kill, making that card have a different effect than how it works in a normal game.


You've already said that OP3 is not a standard game. You've already said you know that kills don't actually score points in a standard game. So how is this a change that makes the card have a different effect? It NEVER scored any points in ANY game before. It has always been ruled that FBP is not an attack. This is NOT an exception made only for this scenario, it is how the game has always played.

What you propose is actually a change to the rules so that an exception is made for FBP so that it can be considered an attack and that it will qualify as 'the attack' that destroys the BCT/BST.


At this point it's agree to disagree. Nothing you've said has convinced me that the feedback pulse doesn't deal the killing blow. I still say that any kill resulting from your card effect gives you credit.

It's been ruled this way in an official OP2 where someone I played against used the pulse with their last ship and managed to do 4 damage to the cube as a result. I didn't whine and claim that the Borg are throwing the dice so it doesn't count. I gave him his 4 damage and the win. Without an official ruling it's 100% up to the TO (and even with an official ruling, the TO can choose to rule one way or the other depending on what their players want).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Lin
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
At this point it's agree to disagree. Nothing you've said has convinced me that the feedback pulse doesn't deal the killing blow. I still say that any kill resulting from your card effect gives you credit.

It's been ruled this way in an official OP2 where someone I played against used the pulse with their last ship and managed to do 4 damage to the cube as a result. I didn't whine and claim that the Borg are throwing the dice so it doesn't count. I gave him his 4 damage and the win. Without an official ruling it's 100% up to the TO (and even with an official ruling, the TO can choose to rule one way or the other depending on what their players want).


The TO always has final say. The TO can restrict ships, enforce rules, or ignore rulings; it is their right as the organizer of the tournament. That has always been the case.

That is not the same thing as the mechanics of the card, though. Mechanically speaking, 'you' (In STAW terms, the ship activating the card) do not deal damage with Feedback Pulse, the attacker does.

That is how it works, regardless of individual thoughts on the matter, if we are talking purely in terms of rules and mechanics. The one who normally gets credit is the source of the damage; in this case, the attacker is the source of their own damage. That said, as you have suggested and as mentioned, the TO can simply over rule that mechanic if they feel it's better for whatever reason.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D Conklin
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dc0nklin wrote:
At the end of the day, if you are in a position to use Feedback Pulse to make the killing blow, likely your opponent will be too on their next turn...

So which is worse, to make the BCT shoot you, Feedback Pulse, and then have the BCT get "credit" for killing itself OR not take the shot but risk the opponent getting the kill?

I'd have to go with FP. Also, deny all knowledge of this thread and let the TO call it.



Quoting my own post is weird, I know...

But I wanted to point out a nuance lost in the discussion above (and counter to my point quoted above): The real power of the Feedback Pulse is if your skill is highest after BCT, and it is your round with control token, you can get a FBP off and then take your normal shot back-to-back. Killing blow for sure!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hero Guy
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
SeijiTataki wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.


There was no 'errata' to Feedback Pulse; there were some questions about it's behavior, but there was no change to the behavior of the card. Based on the rules clarifications, this is known about Feedback Pulse:
1) It is not an attack (so you can't trigger things off it that require attacks to be made)
2) The defender still rolls defense die

So from this you can extrapolate:
1) The attacker's original attack is still their original attack
2) It's still the attacker's attack (because you roll defense against it)

None of this was errata or even anything from WizKids to specifically mess with the card for the Op. These were ruling answers given long ago.


Scoring it this way for an OP scenario is a change of how the normal scoring rules are. Therefore they're making a special exception to how the use of one card gets scored based on the scenario. That is an errata because they're changing the scoring ruled outlined by the scenario to negate the benefit of this card by stating that you don't get points for kills using this card. You've said it yourself that it doesn't matter where the kill comes from in any other game because points are scored based in surviving fleets. So they instituted a rule change regarding how the BCT gets scored based on who killed it and then altered the ruling to state that feedback pulse doesn't count as your kill, making that card have a different effect than how it works in a normal game.


You've already said that OP3 is not a standard game. You've already said you know that kills don't actually score points in a standard game. So how is this a change that makes the card have a different effect? It NEVER scored any points in ANY game before. It has always been ruled that FBP is not an attack. This is NOT an exception made only for this scenario, it is how the game has always played.

What you propose is actually a change to the rules so that an exception is made for FBP so that it can be considered an attack and that it will qualify as 'the attack' that destroys the BCT/BST.


At this point it's agree to disagree. Nothing you've said has convinced me that the feedback pulse doesn't deal the killing blow. I still say that any kill resulting from your card effect gives you credit.

It's been ruled this way in an official OP2 where someone I played against used the pulse with their last ship and managed to do 4 damage to the cube as a result. I didn't whine and claim that the Borg are throwing the dice so it doesn't count. I gave him his 4 damage and the win. Without an official ruling it's 100% up to the TO (and even with an official ruling, the TO can choose to rule one way or the other depending on what their players want).


So, to paraphrase what you just said:

You all have offered up the actual rules, that can be confirmed through search, but because I don't like what the rules say, they are invalid.

Because...this is an official ruling. We've all told you that its an official ruling. Just because one TO at one event you went to ruled it another way (incorrectly), doesn't make that ruling correct. If the same TO said made the ruling that you can't target a ship if your bases are touching, would that make the ruling an official rule?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Adams
msg tools
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Hero_guy wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
SeijiTataki wrote:
Griffinman01 wrote:
Still gonna go with this response. Dunno why wizkids feels the need to errata every card to fit a restriction on a single OP event in ways that don't make sense. It's like they're trying their damnedest to make any innovative idea people come up with to beat this scenario invalid due to some arbitrary loophole. I literally have 3 builds that I've had to question because of stupid technicalities like this (having the same issue with the Borg tractor beam on the sphere because technically the sphere chooses it's move in the activation phase so it dodges the tractor beam restriction).

I really hope my TO has enough sense to rule otherwise because I've seen and heard other Venus try this with no issue.


There was no 'errata' to Feedback Pulse; there were some questions about it's behavior, but there was no change to the behavior of the card. Based on the rules clarifications, this is known about Feedback Pulse:
1) It is not an attack (so you can't trigger things off it that require attacks to be made)
2) The defender still rolls defense die

So from this you can extrapolate:
1) The attacker's original attack is still their original attack
2) It's still the attacker's attack (because you roll defense against it)

None of this was errata or even anything from WizKids to specifically mess with the card for the Op. These were ruling answers given long ago.


Scoring it this way for an OP scenario is a change of how the normal scoring rules are. Therefore they're making a special exception to how the use of one card gets scored based on the scenario. That is an errata because they're changing the scoring ruled outlined by the scenario to negate the benefit of this card by stating that you don't get points for kills using this card. You've said it yourself that it doesn't matter where the kill comes from in any other game because points are scored based in surviving fleets. So they instituted a rule change regarding how the BCT gets scored based on who killed it and then altered the ruling to state that feedback pulse doesn't count as your kill, making that card have a different effect than how it works in a normal game.


You've already said that OP3 is not a standard game. You've already said you know that kills don't actually score points in a standard game. So how is this a change that makes the card have a different effect? It NEVER scored any points in ANY game before. It has always been ruled that FBP is not an attack. This is NOT an exception made only for this scenario, it is how the game has always played.

What you propose is actually a change to the rules so that an exception is made for FBP so that it can be considered an attack and that it will qualify as 'the attack' that destroys the BCT/BST.


At this point it's agree to disagree. Nothing you've said has convinced me that the feedback pulse doesn't deal the killing blow. I still say that any kill resulting from your card effect gives you credit.

It's been ruled this way in an official OP2 where someone I played against used the pulse with their last ship and managed to do 4 damage to the cube as a result. I didn't whine and claim that the Borg are throwing the dice so it doesn't count. I gave him his 4 damage and the win. Without an official ruling it's 100% up to the TO (and even with an official ruling, the TO can choose to rule one way or the other depending on what their players want).


So, to paraphrase what you just said:

You all have offered up the actual rules, that can be confirmed through search, but because I don't like what the rules say, they are invalid.

Because...this is an official ruling. We've all told you that its an official ruling. Just because one TO at one event you went to ruled it another way (incorrectly), doesn't make that ruling correct. If the same TO said made the ruling that you can't target a ship if your bases are touching, would that make the ruling an official rule?


Show me where wizkids made this an official ruling. I never saw one and since people have started multiple threads with this same question and posts in the official FAQ thread have gone unanswered by wizkids, I only hear a couple of boardgamegeek users saying it's official. Not to be rude but when I hear 4 or so players who tell me that it doesn't work but a TO ruled that it does, I'm gonna believe the TO because he's the one enforcing the rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Lin
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Griffinman01 wrote:
Show me where wizkids made this an official ruling. I never saw one and since people have started multiple threads with this same question and posts in the official FAQ thread have gone unanswered by wizkids, I only hear a couple of boardgamegeek users saying it's official. Not to be rude but when I hear 4 or so players who tell me that it doesn't work but a TO ruled that it does, I'm gonna believe the TO because he's the one enforcing the rules.


1) Most of the posts revolving around this card for this op were the same person posting in multiple areas. Because it's multiple areas, of course, you got multiple opinions from people.

2) The TO enforces the rules he or she thinks makes sense to them. That does not actually mean it's the rules. Plenty of TOs ignore the official rulings from Parks and Guild that are available and noted here because they don't consider the rulings here 'official' because they are not on the WizKids page, regardless of the fact that the people making the rulings work(ed) for WizKids on the very product. They can over-ride or house rule whatever they feel like whenever they feel like. That does, in fact, make it valid for the venue they oversee, but does nothing to actually state the behavior of the card except for their environment.

3) As for official rulings:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/15674318#15674318
Quote:
24. Is rolling defense dice optional (for example, can I refuse to roll defense dice when I use the Feedback Pulse)?

No, you must roll all defense dice that you are entitled to.

You are treating the original attack that is being fired from Feedback Pulse as the original attack (as you roll die against it). This is how it determines the damage done (as only uncancelled hits are halved and reflected)

Quote:
9. When a ship uses the Feedback Pulse to defend itself, what happens to any critical damage that would be reflected back on the attacker?

It is converted into normal damage before reflecting back on the attacker.


10. Does the Feedback Pulse protect you from all forms of attack?

It protects you from anything defined as an attack, such as Suicide Attack or having an Anti-Matter Minefield dropped on top of your ship. It does not protect you from non-attack damage sources, such as Will Riker's text or running into a minefield during the Activation Phase

This acknowledges that the attack is being reflected, and is not a separate attack.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/15483236#15483236
Andrew Parks wrote:
koku_ryu wrote:
Andrew Parks wrote:
hairToday wrote:
Hey Andrew, couple questions about Concussive Charges and the new Borg upgrades. I hope I'm not repeating any questions you've answered before.

First, the text for Concussive Charges:

Quote:
"Attack, Target Lock, Disable: For every uncanceled [hit] or [crit] result, the target ship loses 1 token of your choice in addition to suffering damage. You may fire this weapon from your forward or rear firing arcs."


My first question is about Drone tokens. On the reference card, it says that you put the current Drone Token by its ship to mark the current Captain Skill. If that ship is hit by a Concussive Charge, can the firing player choose to remove the current Drone Token? If so, what happens?

Second, if a ship with Feedback Pulse is hit by a Concussive Charge and uses the Feedback Pulse to return the damage to the firer, are any tokens removed? If so, who chooses which tokens are removed? If the original firer gets to choose and, through some turn of circumstance, has an Auxiliary Power token, can the original firer choose to remove the Aux Token?

Thanks again for answering our questions Andrew!


Feedback Pulse only lets you affect the Damage Cards, not any other effects.


Still not 100% clear on this one, sorry.

Scenario:

player 1 attacks with STAW:Concussive Charges. Player 2 triggers STAW:Feedback Pulse. Roll attack. 4 hits -> 2 hits to Player 1. those 2 hits to the Player 1 were uncancelled, so does player 1 get to remove 2 of player 2's tokens?


also, are any defense dice rolled? It would seem that the defender would still defend, which could potentially cancel hits that would go to his attacker.


The defender still defends as normal.

Only half the damage is cancelled. The other half is not cancelled; all that happens is that the Damage Cards are re-directed.

So in your example, Player 1 takes 2 damage, and Player 2 loses 2 tokens.

Player 2 was officially hit (i.e. there were still uncancelled Hit results), so even though he can re-direct the damage, he still suffers all other effects.

This acknowledges that the source of the damage is the original firing effect; if it was a special ability, it is still treated as the special ability, but the damage itself is all that is redirected.


This means that the attack is belonging to the person to initiated the attack, and the source of the damage is the person who started the attack, not the card itself.

HOWEVER.

This is a single post with a contradiction to all of these rules:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/15643817#15643817
Andrew Parks wrote:
arken42 wrote:
Two Questions:

2. Counter Attack (ACTION: If your ship's Shields or Hull are damaged by a ship in your forward firing arc this round, you may immediately make 1 free attack against that ship.)

Feedback Pulse: (When defending, before any dice are rolled, you may discard this card to declare that half of the damage from this attack will be cancelled and the other half assigned to the attacker (round down); you receive no damage. The attacking ship cannot receive critical damage from this effect. Place an Auxiliary Power Token beside your ship.)

Does Counter Attack work against Feedback Pulse?

My instinct says no by the way the cards read but technically the Feedback Pulse is dealing the damage back to you from the enemy ship.





I believe the answer is yes, as long as the ship hitting you with Feedback Pulse is in your forward firing arc.


This is the ONLY instance of a supposed contradiction to the source of the damage, and isn't even a confident 'yes'. Because nobody questioned it after it was posted, there is nothing to say one way or the other.

This is the only evidence I have found to implies that the person who activated Feedback Pulse is the source of the damage (to activate Counter Attack), versus multiple rulings that seem to imply it is simply a redirect of the original source.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.