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Wiz-War (eighth edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Dispel rss

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Daniel
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Can I end an item with "Dispel"?
 
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Steve McClure
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the Dispel card reads...
Quote:
Immediately end 1 target non-instant spell, as well as any spells affecting that spell.


Since the item cards have the "permanent" duration icon on them, they are "non-instant spells".

As I mentioned...just today... in this thread this is just my best guess/effort in ruling, as this just came up in play today with my son.
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Daniel
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Thank you Steve! But I am not sure... An item is not a spell, or is it? Its a magic card, not?
 
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Steve McClure
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Again. My logic is referenced in that other thread.

The item cards are marked with the "permanent" duration symbol, and specific item card(s) say that the item is "cast".

Those above indicate to me that an item is a spell. So, in my mind, dispel works on items.

On one hand that makes dispel VERY powerful, and it already IS very powerful. Dispel was already a game changing card, and this ruling strengthens it. This is is somewhat balanced with the low number of dispels in the deck. The same thing goes with absorb spell. It too, is very powerful but there aren't a lot of them in any given game. On the other hand items themselves are very powerful, so allowing a few cards to target them by regarding them as spells doesn't seem too unbalancing.
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Tylor Lilley
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This sounds fundamentally wrong to me. Not only doe sit not make sense to be able to dispel an item flavorfully, but as you said, it makes a few really good cards even better.

Even with your description of the flavor - the wizard casting a spell to summon the item - it makes no sense why you would be able to dispel the ITEM later, as there is no spell involved at that point. Just a big ol' rock or whatever.

And while this might not matter to some, it was definitely NOT the case that you could "cancel" an item in the old versions of wiz-war. After all, an item is NOT a spell, so it can't be targeted by things like dispel that "cancel target non-instant spell".

But that's still the case, right? While items do have the "infinity" symbol, this symbol only marks duration - not that it is a spell. In fact, no where in the rules does it say that items are spells - so why would we assume that everything is a spell unless it is said otherwise? Especially when the rules clearly list the following under the heading where it discusses card types:

Official Rules wrote:
There are five types of Magic cards: attack spell,
counter spell, energy, item, and neutral spell.


Here, we can clearly see which types of cards ARE referred to as spells. This only gives us more reason not to assume that all cards are spells unless stated otherwise. The rules consistently refer to cards with these types as spells, and to casting them, and to item cards as only "magic cards", and to playing them - this is the key difference.

Now we could ask why this confusion exists and I think its because in this version all the cards in the deck are referred to as "magic cards", with the three spell types being a subset of the magic cards, and items and energy making of the rest of the magic cards. Surely energy and items can be magical without being spells, but I could see how this wording choice might seem to imply they are spells.

tl;dr - Items and Energy cards are not spells. Thus they can't be targeted by Dispel, which only targets "non-instant spells".
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Steve McClure
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I see where you are coming from, and I get it. I'm not right along side agreeing with you though as at least one item card, brainstone, says it is cast.

I'm viewing item cards as summoning spells that summon the object.

In the end I don't think it makes too much difference which way this is ruled. There is very little intersection between items and spells in my interpretation. This intersection being one or two counters spell cards when the item comes into play and dispell after that point.

To respond to your example in another thread. I agree wholeheartedly that full shield would not be useful to 'counter' an item card being played. In my interpretation absorb spell would be able to target an item card being played. I don't think any other counter spell would work in response to an item card.
 
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Jamie Pollock
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I wouldn't have said items are spells, mainly because the rules only label neutral, attack and counter as spells.
 
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Steve McClure
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I'll do my best name dropping here, and say that I had the pleasure to play in a Wiz-War tournament with Tom Jolly as host and referee. During that play session, he ruled that dispel would remove an item from play.

 
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Jamie Pollock
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Well, that's really not what I would've expected based on the way the rules are written and the text on the Dispel card.

I'm not sure we'd even play it that way even with Tom's ruling... lol
 
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chris thatcher
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It kinda makes sense to me. You are dispelling the magic within a item. May be my DnD background
 
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Tylor Lilley
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Jambo wrote:
Well, that's really not what I would've expected based on the way the rules are written and the text on the Dispel card.

I'm not sure we'd even play it that way even with Tom's ruling... lol


Yeah, I love Mr. Jolly, but that's just not the way these rules are written. I wouldn't play it that way, if not only because Dispel is already a pretty powerful spell that can take care of all manner of enchantments, curses, creations, AND monsters already... and now you want it to take care of items too? how much do you need one spell to do!?

For an additional gameplay reason, I like the idea that the items are not spells because they tend to be not so strong (compare the heavy rock to a fireball, for example), but with the tradeoff that its much harder to defend against because its not a spell.

But to each there own! This is simply my preferred way of playing here. Clearly even Tom Jolly has a different one.
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Steve McClure
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I understand and respect both positions here.

One thing I don't understand is the 'clear cut' view that dispel doesn't apply to items, but the begrudging acceptance that dispel does appear to apply to summoned creatures.

I'm crossing threads here but the view in the dispel vs creatures threadwas that dispel seemed to apply to creatures.

I guess I don't see the reason to differentiate between the two. Both creatures and items have the permanent icon on them, I'm not sure how to reconcile how a summoned creature can be dispelled but a summoned item cannot.
 
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Tylor Lilley
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There is a very big, concrete difference between items and creatures. Dispel works on creatures because the creature spell card is a neutral spell; it has the neutral spell symbol in the upper left of the card. It doesn't work on items because items are not spells; they have an item card type symbol in the upper left corner of the card, and none of the three spell symbols (attack, neutral, and counter).

Once again, the infinity symbol has nothing to do with whether a card is a spell or not, only how long the magic card stays in play. In this case both stay permenantly once played, but that has nothing to do with how they interact with dispel except that dispel can only be used on cards with that symbol (or the temporary duration one); the card it tarhets also has to be a spell, however.

Thus since all creatures have spell symbols on them, this explains why dispel working on creatures is accepted. Items are questioned because unlike creaturee, they dont have a spell symbol attached to them, so that hopefully answers your question for why dispel working on creatures begrudgingly accepted and not debated like items.
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