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Subject: Myth Unofficial Manual Rewrite—Feedback Request rss

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Dean Ray Johnson

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These past few months, I've been rewriting the Myth manual as an exercise in technical writing. I'm almost finished now, needing to add a few more pages and do a final proofread for errors.

If you're into the game, I'd really appreciate if you'd download the latest version and give it a read. Let me know if there are any rules that still seem confusing, or if you think I could do something better with the layouts, or if you notice anything missing, et cetera. Thanks!

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/105131/unofficial-manu...

* Sept 27 Update: Final version of the manual submitted to the file page.
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Random Fleming
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Dean,
Thanks for doing this! This is a monumental task but such a finished product would be wonderful!

I commented earlier on a draft on the MegaCon Games forums. I will give it another reread and provide additional feedback here.

Again, thanks for putting this together and requesting community feedback!
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doug woolley

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I skimmed through the beta manual you created and it seems much better. I will plan on learning how to play (comprehensively) via your manual, thanks for all your work on this!
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Dean Ray Johnson

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Also, I spent the past couple of hours hunting for typos, and I've found enough to say: don't worry too much about typos right now. :V
 
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doug woolley

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I did see 2 errors on the quest card page. #2 and #3 items should be swapped and for the quest types, I believe the second one, "A" should be acts.
 
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Cory J
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On page 5, numbers 2 and 4 are reversed. Not sure what kind of typos you found already though, so might not bother looking for more.
 
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Dean Ray Johnson

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Yup, saw those. And that is why I need to read things twice before posting final versions~

But thank you for the note. I was more wondering about thoughts on layout, if there's any deliberately missing information, do the samples make sense, stuff like that.
 
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Jorge B
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Not having yet received the game, I have only a passing knowledge of the rules. I guess that makes me an "ideal" test subject. I'll try give them a look and give you some feedback.
Some early comments on the first 2 pages. Forgive me if I sound too nitpicking.

"Action takes place in the Realm, tiles with squares for movement."
This seems strange to me. It appears to be defining "Realm" as tiles with squares, but I believe that is not the intent (and the term Realm is not used with that meaning in the next sentence). Maybe it is missing an "on" before "tiles"?

"Heroes use these dice to activate the fate recipes of their
items." -> At this point, the concept of "fate recipes" has not been introduced, leaving the reader to wonder if he missed anything. I'd suggest one or more of the following:
1 - Italicize "fate recipes" to visually indicate that a new concept is being introduced.
2 - Refer to an appropriate section.
3 - Maybe, introduce a sidebar explaining the concept.

Cheers
Jorge
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Dean Ray Johnson

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tiborvadovan wrote:
Forgive me if I sound too nitpicking.

Nooooooooo, that is exactly what I wanted, thank you!

I wasn't going to use any hotlinks in the summary, since that was just supposed to be a quick overview of what all is going on, but that means I probably shouldn't be using any terms that haven't been explained yet, huh.
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David Landry
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Got the game last week - it is still sitting unopened in the corner of my cubicle space.

Since I have no idea how to play, I too will attempt to learn the game from your rules.

Dave
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Alan Stewart
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cdndave wrote:
Got the game last week - it is still sitting unopened in the corner of my cubicle space.

Funny, same here. It was just easier to get it shipped to work than deal with it going home, during work hours. I'll get it home soon though, and then I'm going to have to check it VERY carefully to make sure it's all there.
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Tony Pecorelli
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This is a great exercise. I haven't played in a couple months due to summer sports, but when I pick the game up again I'll give your rules a once over to see how they are.
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Nick Hughes
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Started reading last night and whilst I am only up to the characters information already I am impressed with the layout and explanations. It's a while since I looked at the original and I am still awaiting my game but I thank you this and if I have any queries I'll post them up.
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Jorge B
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Continued reading up to page 15, here are some more comments.
Seems fine so far, thanks again for your effort. My greatest difficulty was with the brigand's shadow combos, as explained bellow. The rest is just more nitpicking.

I'll keep on providing feedback when I manage to advance further in the text.


Page 6, Hero card example

I think it would be best if it was explicitly stated that the grid diagram that is in the card is an example only (right?).
Maybe it should also be more clear if the range applies only to the first target or if subsequent targets must also be in range. I think that the former is true, but I guess it can be debatable.


Page 6, Target Number

There is a somewhat abrupt transition from the first to second sentence.
Perhaps some bridge like "In the case of an attack, the TN is the monster's defense value."

Page 12, Optional Ammo
Had to read this twice to make sure I understood properly. This is probably more the rulings fault than any problem with the text.
Nevertheless, I'd try to rewrite it, perhaps more clearly separating what happens in each one of the options, with bullets or something?

Page 14, Shadows Combos

Maybe there is no need to diferentiate, but the section is talking about Combos and then proceeds to talk about *attacks* with "Optional Shadows" and "Required Shadows". Are these the same thing? I do not have the game so I can't check. Are all attacks combos, or do only combo attacks have these keywords?

Anyway, i'm not sure what "(Combo:+2FD)" is supposed to mean.
I understand that "Optional Shadows" grants two bonus fate die, are we talking about the same thing there? What's the point of having "Combo" there then??
I'd expect that to mean that if I played an earlier combo card I gain 2FD, but it doesn't seem to be the case?... If so, what is it doing there in that paragraph?

I'd prefer perhaps something a bit more structured, like this:

Optional Shadows: If you are in Shadows, gain +2FD
Require Shadows: Must be in Shadows to play, gain +2FD.
Combo: ?????????

I also don't understand quite well the second paragraph and example. This is most likely because I don't have the cards to follow through.
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Evan Chauvette
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Page 17, when describing the Soldier's ability Blade Dance, it says:

Interrupt. Play when an adjacent target attacks the Brigand
(receiving the attack's damage if hit). Make one counterattack per Rage.

I think you meant Soldier, not Brigand.

I suggest that you bold or slightly alter the text on page 31:

Spend 1 MP to move a hero to an adjacent square, including
diagonal squares.

I was glancing over the page, saw the diagram that shows orthogonal movement, and immediately searched to see if diagonal movement was possible. The sentence says "adjacent", which in game terms usually does not include diagonal. With careful reading, it's right there, but for such a large rulebook most people are skimming.
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Josh Derksen
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Two small things, from a cursory once-over.

Page 5 - Hero board diagram - numbering for Status and Threat is switched.

Page 63 - Hurn's Pitfall - Non combat action should be "avoid the pitfall"
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Luke Butler
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Wow this is great. I just received my game yesterday and thought I'd read through this before diving it. I found a minor typo on page 27 in the 'Realm Setup Example'.

4. The tile legend shows allows the players to place 1
or 2 lairs and an optional hunting pack.
The
players want a bit of challenge, but they worry that
their new heroes won't be able to finish the quest
while dealing with two lairs. They decide to place a
hunting pack of 6 melee crawlers on the other side
of the tile. The first crawler in this pack must be
placed within the purple lines.

The first sentence should not have the word "shows" in it.
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Dean Ray Johnson

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Thanks for the typo reports. I should clearly not be allowed to post the final version before I've read through the whole thing five times.

tiborvadovan wrote:
Page 6, Hero card example, I think it would be best if it was explicitly stated that the grid diagram that is in the card is an example only (right?). Maybe it should also be more clear if the range applies only to the first target or if subsequent targets must also be in range.

Rewrite:

Hero Card Example: Fingers of Ia
• Fingers of Ia initially deals 1 damage to one target within 3 squares of the Apprentice.
• The card's text explains that the Apprentice may clear Ongoing cards to make this spell jump to additional targets. Those targets may be outside of the spell's range. The card shows an example on a grid.

tiborvadovan wrote:
Page 6, Target Number, There is a somewhat abrupt transition from the first to second sentence.

Rewrite:

Target Number (TN)
To succeed with an attack or other ability, a hit die must meet or exceed a TN, such as a monster's Defense. For example, if the Apprentice has a -1 TN bonus to his attack rolls, he must roll a 4 or more with a d10 to hit and damage a grubber with Defense 5.

tiborvadovan wrote:
Page 12, Optional Ammo, Had to read this twice to make sure I understood properly.

Rewrite:

Optional Ammo
Some Archer attacks, such as Tumble and To the Knee, have the Optional Ammo keyword. These attacks have two options.

• If the Archer discards an Ammo from her quiver, she attacks with her bow's range and bonus dice.

• If the Archer does not discard an Ammo, she attacks an adjacent target with her knife, using only her base dice and bonus dice from other abilities.

tiborvadovan wrote:
Page 14, Shadows Combos, Maybe there is no need to diferentiate, but the section is talking about Combos and then proceeds to talk about *attacks* with "Optional Shadows" and "Required Shadows". Are these the same thing?

Rewrite:

Shadows Combos
The Brigand's Shadows cards have "Combo: +2FD." This combo improves some of her attacks.

• Attacks with Optional Shadows gain +2FD if played while the Brigand is in Shadows.

• Attacks with Required Shadows must be played while the Brigand is in Shadows. These attacks also gain +2 FD.

• If the Brigand attacks with Shadow's Reach while in Shadows, which gains +2FD, she can then play an attack with Optional Shadow's Reach, and that attack also gains +2FD.

JusticeProctor wrote:
I suggest that you bold or slightly alter the text on page 31: Spend 1 MP to move a hero to an adjacent square, including diagonal squares. I was glancing over the page, saw the diagram that shows orthogonal movement, and immediately searched to see if diagonal movement was possible.

I'll edit that sentence a little, and I'll edit the sample movement image on that page to show the Soldier moving into a diagonal square.
 
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David Landry
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Would it be possible to share the document on a Dropbox or other sharing site as you work the document - that way we always have the latest version for reviewing

Just my thought - the only issue I encountered so far is a reference to later in the manual, but I couldn't find it again (sorry)

The layout is great and has the same flavour as the original manual

Dave
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Darth Ed
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cdndave wrote:
Would it be possible to share the document on a Dropbox or other sharing site as you work the document - that way we always have the latest version for reviewing

Good idea. I recommend Google Docs.
 
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Dean Ray Johnson

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I printed my current version of the manual, and I spent a lot of downtime this week at work marking it up with a red pen. I also have feedback from the forums and a few PMs, and I need to add the last pages for the component sheets, index, and acknowledgments. Once I get through that all of that, I'll post the next version somewhere. Never tried Google Docs before, might try it out.

Also, a request for public comment. There are minions and captains in the game, like grubbers and muckers and crawlers. The original manual capitalizes just about every third word, and I intentionally sought to cut down on capital letters. One PM of suggestions mentioned that grubbers is a proper noun and should be capitalized. I have to argue against this:

• If I were writing a D&D manual, I wouldn't capitalize goblins or elves. But if I were writing about M:tG, I would capitalize Goblin Cadets or Elvish Harbinger.
• If I were writing about a football team, I would capitalize Titans or Falcons, but I wouldn't capitalize quarterback or offensive linesman.
• If I were writing about Starcraft, I would capitalize Protoss and Zerg, but I wouldn't capitalize templars and reavers and zerglings and mutalisks.

There's some particular rule here about how you don't capitalize a species of a creature, but you do capitalize the names of teams or nations. Which category does grubbers belong to?

On top of that, I also didn't capitalize heroes, on the grounds that I would never capitalize players or traders or adventurers or planeswalkers when writing in another manual. But I think the game's publishers prefer to capitalize Heroes as a style decision.
 
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Alan Stewart
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dreamshade wrote:
But I think the game's publishers prefer to capitalize Heroes as a style decision.

Their "style decisions" were just their way of saying they hadn't a fucking faintest idea of what they were doing and were too stupid to hire a proper editor.

You seem to have a MUCH clearer idea of how the English language works. Go for it. Do what YOU know is right. It's YOUR document. The rest of us just get to enjoy all the work you're putting into it!

And yeah, I agree, less capitalizing is better. I saw a fan-made game adventure where the entire document (two pages) was written entirely in Title Case. W ... T ... F ... ???
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dreamshade wrote:
I printed my current version of the manual, and I spent a lot of downtime this week at work marking it up with a red pen. I also have feedback from the forums and a few PMs, and I need to add the last pages for the component sheets, index, and acknowledgments. Once I get through that all of that, I'll post the next version somewhere. Never tried Google Docs before, might try it out.

Also, a request for public comment. There are minions and captains in the game, like grubbers and muckers and crawlers. The original manual capitalizes just about every third word, and I intentionally sought to cut down on capital letters. One PM of suggestions mentioned that grubbers is a proper noun and should be capitalized. I have to argue against this:

• If I were writing a D&D manual, I wouldn't capitalize goblins or elves. But if I were writing about M:tG, I would capitalize Goblin Cadets or Elvish Harbinger.
• If I were writing about a football team, I would capitalize Titans or Falcons, but I wouldn't capitalize quarterback or offensive linesman.
• If I were writing about Starcraft, I would capitalize Protoss and Zerg, but I wouldn't capitalize templars and reavers and zerglings and mutalisks.

There's some particular rule here about how you don't capitalize a species of a creature, but you do capitalize the names of teams or nations. Which category does grubbers belong to?

On top of that, I also didn't capitalize heroes, on the grounds that I would never capitalize players or traders or adventurers or planeswalkers when writing in another manual. But I think the game's publishers prefer to capitalize Heroes as a style decision.


The mere fact that you are asking this question shows how far you've come on this project. Well done!

My personal preference is to capitalize the word, but it isn't MY document

Using your Starcraft analogy, what genus does a "grubber" belong to? I get that a zergling belongs to the genus Zerg, but I don't see that relationship in Myth. I therefore mentally treat these names in Myth like Grubber and Crawler as proper names needing caps.

Dean, go with whatever you want. I think there's points on either side of this debate.

When you first started this process, I fully expected McG to finalize the rulebook update long before you’d deliver the first draft. I almost advised against “wasting your time” based on what I perceived was a priority at McG. Wow, did I read those tea leaves wrong or what?!? wow

I am curious on this. Have you been in touch with McG regarding this effort at all? Seems sort of ridiculous at this point to have TWO updated manuals. If your product wasn’t so stinking awesome from a production standpoint, I’d say there’s a space for two, but at this point, McG has to deliver something next to impossible to top your product (IMHO). At this stage, it seems a little pointless to point their limited resources towards a manual update when yours is what the community begged for. Heck, maybe it makes sense for you to reach out to them and ask (if you haven’t). There’s precedent for this given they included Tom’s awesome quest template in the last patch….

As a somewhat related question, what are your intentions with this project moving forward? Will you continue to add/change content as McG changes their base content via patches? For instance:

* Agents – there’s very little in the rulebook regarding these. Their “drops”, their quests, the general play mechanic. Will you update once this knowledge is shared (or determined by the community)?

* New Heroes – The “bonus” heroes that are available. Will you add sections to the manual for them? There’s tremendous amount of confusion on how these play (based on traffic over on Mercs website).

* New Hero decks – The first patch introduced a whole new card for the Hero. Do you plan on updating your manual to reflect the new cards? Maybe updating isn’t the right term – releasing a post 1.1 patch manual?

* New Item decks – it is rumored that McG plans to release a completely new item deck in patch 1.2. Do you plan on updating in this manual?

* Localization – is it possible for our international brothers and sisters to translate this? Assuming they want to once you declare it “final”…

Basically, I am wondering if you plan on maintaining this document you’ve spent so much time creating and nurturing into its current state of awesomeness?
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Dean Ray Johnson

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EverywhereGames wrote:
Their "style decisions" were just their way of saying they hadn't a fucking faintest idea of what they were doing and were too stupid to hire a proper editor.

Don't be mean about it, dude. It could also mean that there's a convention in miniatures gaming to capitalize names for groups of monsters and PCs. And I got a bunch of notes from Randomfleming, one of which asks if "grubber" is the name of a genus or a species. :V It's not a gigantic deal.

Mistermannindy wrote:
I am curious on this. Have you been in touch with McG regarding this effort at all?

I haven't directly spoken to them, but I've gotten a PM saying that they've seen it on the MCG forums.

Mistermannindy wrote:
As a somewhat related question, what are your intentions with this project moving forward? Will you continue to add/change content as McG changes their base content via patches?

There's already a set of errata'ed hero cards on MCG's website, as well as a beta patch of the new rules that the team was writing. Since the v1.1 stuff came out halfway through my work on the project, I decided to deliberately ignore the new patch, since it would mean I'd have to go back and figure out which parts of my ruleset needed updates, and I figured that rewriting the original rules would make more sense for people who already own the game. I'm not against the idea of rewriting parts of the manual for the new rules later on.

Mistermannindy wrote:
Localization – is it possible for our international brothers and sisters to translate this? Assuming they want to once you declare it “final"...

I do my work in an open-source document editor called Scribus. Once I'm done, I can probably dump the source files into a Dropbox if people want to do their own edits from there.

I'll probably spend most of Sunday doing edits and reading feedback. Thanks again for the responses.
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Dean Ray Johnson

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Current status, proofread and edited most of the manual, everything except Traps and Story Quests. Added feedback from Randomfleming, tiborvadovan, and others. Still need to write component list and index, which will be a fun chore.

Dropbox link for latest version here.
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