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Subject: #3 on BGG Rank!!! rss

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Manuel Berger
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Terra Mystica in now #3 on BGG Rank!
Just above Agricola!!!
I believe it deserves spot #1 too!
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Kristof Bodric
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I'm happy for TM and I love the game. Got 124 of them under my belt (all live games).

However, I still prefer both Agricola and Twilight Struggle to it. That is not to say that it isn't awesome. I just like the other two better.
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that Matt
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Mat Thomsen
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Wow.
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Frank Hamrick
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For me, TM is the best all-time, all-around game I've ever played. Agricola isn't in my top ten. I don't care for the use of the cards and the luck involved. Strategies so deep in TM. So much variation with all of the races and variable set-ups. Can be played in a reasonable time. Awesome bits. TM reigns!
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Brian Jurney
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Glad to see it made it to the top 3, its well deserved. Looks like it could take the #2 spot before to long, but it has a long ways to go to take down Twilight Struggle.
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Robin Zigmond
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I'm surprised by this (agricola has been entrenched in the top 3 since long before I discovered board games and BGG), but it's totally deserved. I think agricola is a great game, but TM totally blows it away. I hope TM goes on to surpass Through the Ages too, even though I consider the latter a masterpiece and my second favourite game ever - TM is just that far ahead ofit in my opinion. (And i've played 8 of the BGG top ten and most of the next 10 - all except power grid are imo good games and most are great, but for me this game surpasses all the other. Although twilight struggle is one of the ones I haven't played.)

I can't see TM going all the way to number 1 though. Just look how far behind it is in average rating, remembering that that tends to go down over time.
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Florian Trabert
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Completely deserved, I would love to see TM on #1. I also think that TM is slightly better than Agricola (which I like a lot), especially because the races are better balanced than the cards in Agricola. But there is one drawback: TM is only the outstanding game it is with 4 or 5 players, while Agricola scales down very well.
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Robin Zigmond
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flott wrote:
TM is only the outstanding game it is with 4 or 5 players, while Agricola scales down very well.


I agree that it's better with 4 or 5, but even with 3 I'd still choose TM over any other game, including Agricola. At 2p it's closer, but I don't think 2p TM is a bad game - it just plays very very differently from the 4 and 5-player game (and I have little to no experience of it).
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Robert
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I agree - while TM is even more fun with 4p than with 3p, it's a better 3p game than many others. It's main advantage as a 3p game is that the opportunity for the losing player to decide the winner is much more limited than in many other 3p games. In a game like Maria, the player who has no hope to win will decide who will win by focussing on one opponent. While to some degree this can also happen in TM, it's less likely to happen and the impact is smaller.
 
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Steve B
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Twilight Struggle and Agricola are in my top 3 games. I have had Terra Mystica for over a year but haven't played it once - it just seems so tedious (this is coming from someone who reads wargame rule books and enjoys it). I guess it may be worth reading the rules again and trying out a game.
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Daniel Honig
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If people ranked games based only on their opinions of the game after glancing at the rulebook, I'm pretty sure most mid-weight euros would be considered both tedious and not particularly good. The only way to know anything about the game is to play it!

(Or maybe watch a really comprehensive review.)
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Glorfindel De Rivendel
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I do not know why people like this game so much. To me is not even top 100 but even so I could understand that it be the 80th, 90th or so, but top 3 almost top 2 above Agricola, Mage Knight, WoR, Dominant Species, Caylus? It is going to surpass TTA and maybe Twilight Struggle. Are we serious?

I am sorry but I do not agree with this rank in particular. It is the only rating in all top100 that makes me jerk up. In our crew all people think the same thing, even the game owner does not understand the rating of his own game.

 
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Glorfindel De Rivendel
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You are right it is just a humble opinion, not an analysis or a debate where I have to leave arguments. An opinion is the way throughout one can say what he thinks about something with no further commitment.

If you want something more like the broken races, the artificial theme, the lack of interaction and the lack of tension, yeah maybe there is something about that in my opinion that makes me think that terra Mystica is correct and enjoyable in some way but far away of the kind of things that I expect in a top 3 game.

Twilight Struggle is God in a board and to see Terra Mystica just two steps behind makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

PS: sorry about my english.

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William Cody
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Love Terra Mystica I totally think it deserves that "numba' one spot!".

Finally someone else has knocked down Agricola, not particularly a fan of it.

I hope Caverna knocks down Agricola too, I like it much better.
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Robin Zigmond
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Apologies for feeding That Which Should Not Be Fed, but I find it very hard to pass such things by. I promise this will be my only attempt

asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:

If you want something more like the broken races


The balance or supposed lack thereof of factions in the game has been discussed ad infitum, and then some, on the forums. But no-one who actually plays the game regularly thinks that any races are close to being "broken". Just look at the games played between high-level players, and see how close the winning scores usually are. The Darklings are widely acknowledged to be the strongest faction on average, but if they were even close to "broken"-ly good, then the first player would almost always choose them straight away and then win by a significant margin. But most often strong players pick a different faction, and when someone does pick Darklings it's not that common for there to be a runaway win. (I think a large part of the reason behind their average score being so far ahead of those of the other factions is that they are simply a lot easier for weak-to-intermediate players to get a respectable score with - so the difference between the top players and the also-rans like me is less great with the Darklings than any other faction.)

The bigger concern is that at least one faction is much too weak, indeed almost unplayable 90+% of the time if you want to win against good opposition, and a couple of others are also some way par. This is a shame, but I stress that even these weak factions can have their day when the game setup favours them - and that the forthcoming expansion (and the mini-expansions already released) looks to go a long way to correcting this.

And as I've always said in these discussions, you try designing a game with 14 totally different factions and seeing if you can get a better "balance". It ain't as easy as you think, I'm sure.

Quote:
the artificial theme


OK, you got me there. There's not much of a theme here (although some faction special abilities are kind-of-thematic if you think about it) - but not everyone really cares about that. I don't recall Puerto Rico or Power Grid being particularly thematic either - certainly I would not say there were any more so than TM - yet you do not seem to be complaining about their high ranks.

Quote:
the lack of interaction


From this comment I guess you've played TM once ever, perhaps twice if you were deliberately trying not to notice anything either time. Players compete over board spaces, over favour tiles, power actions, and over area and cult scoring. And of course there is the fact that when two or more players are next to each other that helps them all out in a couple of ways (and one faction, the Cultists, explicitly gets further large benefit from this sort of interaction).

Quote:
and the lack of tension


Not going to comment separately on this one as I don't know what you mean that you haven't already stated. Suffice to say that I always find my games of TM pretty tense when I'm competing with one or more opponents for something - which is most of the time (see above).


Please don't get me wrong - I'm not forcing anyone to like the game when clearly you don't. I already gave a sly dig at another very popular game in passing in an earlier post of mine (and am surprised that no-one rose to the bait), which I find a pleasant and well-conceived enough game but one without any originality or interest - I'd say its natural rank was about 200 or so, how it is in the top 10 is beyond me. Clearly you feel the same about TM as I do about Power Grid. But it would never occur to me to pop up in the Power Grid forum on a thread whose basic topic is "how great is this game, how high will it rise?" to say it was terrible. I read content on games I am interested in and just ignore the many which I am not - although I have been reminded several times recently that this puts me in some sort of minority on BGG
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Kasper Lauest
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It will probably rise above Through The Ages fairly soon, but Twilight Struggle is out of reach. Infact, it is so far ahead of everything else that it is hard to envision it being overtaken by any game in the near future. TS also has the inherent advantage that it only gets better the more you play it, so players will be less likely to downgrade it much over time, whereas burnout is quite common with a number of other excellent games.
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Glorfindel De Rivendel
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robinz wrote:
Apologies for feeding That Which Should Not Be Fed, but I find it very hard to pass such things by. I promise this will be my only attempt


Please don't get me wrong - I'm not forcing anyone to like the game when clearly you don't. I already gave a sly dig at another very popular game in passing in an earlier post of mine (and am surprised that no-one rose to the bait), which I find a pleasant and well-conceived enough game but one without any originality or interest - I'd say its natural rank was about 200 or so, how it is in the top 10 is beyond me. Clearly you feel the same about TM as I do about Power Grid. But it would never occur to me to pop up in the Power Grid forum on a thread whose basic topic is "how great is this game, how high will it rise?" to say it was terrible. I read content on games I am interested in and just ignore the many which I am not - although I have been reminded several times recently that this puts me in some sort of minority on BGG



I ask myself why I am being treated as Troll just because I am not sharing the same opinion as you about a matter. That is not nice.

I do not mean that TM is a bad game. I am just saying that to me it has not sense to see it on top 3 though the game itself is correct.

I am not a troll because of that. I am not trying to flame all of you. You are glad TM is on top of all, but I am not and I have the right to state it.

As yourself point you think just the same about another game in top 10 so I do not understand the drama. There are a lot of people that hate some game we adore or are not agree with us in some thread. We have to deal with it.

For the record the title of the thread is "TM 3 on "BGG rank!" not "TM official thread". I saw the title and left my thoughts about it. Nothing more. I am not poping up in a thread of cultist with no freedom of expression and I am not disrespecting anybody.

It is curious how are being demanded further arguments and explanations to whom that does not agree with the situation but in the case of a positive opinion a "Fantastic" word message is enough to be posted.

Enjoy and do not get angry because a exchange of thoughts.

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Brian Jurney
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BlueSwan wrote:
It will probably rise above Through The Ages fairly soon, but Twilight Struggle is out of reach. Infact, it is so far ahead of everything else that it is hard to envision it being overtaken by any game in the near future. TS also has the inherent advantage that it only gets better the more you play it, so players will be less likely to downgrade it much over time, whereas burnout is quite common with a number of other excellent games.


Yeah with a .2 lead over everything else, its going to stay #1 for a good year at least. The only current game that may dethrone it would be Caverna, but that would be a long way out.
 
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Robin Zigmond
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asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:
robinz wrote:
Apologies for feeding That Which Should Not Be Fed, but I find it very hard to pass such things by. I promise this will be my only attempt


Please don't get me wrong - I'm not forcing anyone to like the game when clearly you don't. I already gave a sly dig at another very popular game in passing in an earlier post of mine (and am surprised that no-one rose to the bait), which I find a pleasant and well-conceived enough game but one without any originality or interest - I'd say its natural rank was about 200 or so, how it is in the top 10 is beyond me. Clearly you feel the same about TM as I do about Power Grid. But it would never occur to me to pop up in the Power Grid forum on a thread whose basic topic is "how great is this game, how high will it rise?" to say it was terrible. I read content on games I am interested in and just ignore the many which I am not - although I have been reminded several times recently that this puts me in some sort of minority on BGG



I ask myself why I am being treated as Troll just because I am not sharing the same opinion as you about a matter. That is not nice.

I do not mean that TM is a bad game. I am just saying that to me it has not sense to see it on top 3 though the game itself is correct.

I am not a troll because of that. I am not trying to flame all of you. You are glad TM is on top of all, but I am not and I have the right to state it.

As yourself point you think just the same about another game in top 10 so I do not understand the drama. There are a lot of people that hate some game we adore or are not agree with us in some thread. We have to deal with it.

For the record the title of the thread is "TM 3 on "BGG rank!" not "TM official thread". I saw the title and left my thoughts about it. Nothing more. I am not poping up in a thread of cultist with no freedom of expression and I am not disrespecting anybody.

It is curious how are being demanded further arguments and explanations to whom that does not agree with the situation but in the case of a positive opinion a "Fantastic" word message is enough to be posted.

Enjoy and do not get angry because a exchange of thoughts.



Glorfindel,

Thank you for your calm and reasonable response. I can see that you are not a troll, and apologise for implying that you were and any offence I caused

What I will say though, by way of defending my response and that of others, is that a lot of what you said is very similar to what a troll would have said on a thread such as this. Of course, you are entitled to dislike TM, and to express this view. I would be very surprised if anyone else here had any problem with this. What I think rubbed people up the wrong way was the manner in which you expressed it - firstly in choosing a thread which was celebrating the rise of TM through the BGG ranks (and in particular it passing a very tough milestone, reaching the top 3 by going past a former #1 game which has been well-loved for nearly 7 years), and secondly by giving reasons for your dislike which, to most fans of the game, are either irrelevant or demonstrably untrue.

Of course I cannot force you to like the game - I have no reason for wanting to do so, and nor does anyone else. So let us all just be happy and enjoy playing the games we like
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Rhett Morgan
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asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:



I ask myself why I am being treated as Troll just because I am not sharing the same opinion as you about a matter. That is not nice.



You're being treated like a troll because you:

a) tracked down a game you knew you didn't like - though you have probably played it once so good luck judging it fairly

b) you went on to boardgamegeek and went through the effort of hunting down the forums for said game

c) you entered the forum, found the first thread talking about how good it was and blasted the traditional "I hate this and this is a crap game" troll post


asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:
You are glad TM is on top of all, but I am not and I have the right to state it.


This is the flat definition of troll.

You don't need anyone's permission to post troll posts just as we don't need permission to call you out for what you are. Robin is being overly kind here but your back-pedaling doesn't make your initial post worth anything - it has negative value.


asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:
As yourself point you think just the same about another game in top 10 so I do not understand the drama.


Surely you're talking about the drama you yourself created?

And finally, the nail in the coffin, this is literally the only post your account has ever made. You created this account to post this troll post alone. Get out of here.
[Super edit: Robin rules for fact checking me]
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Robin Zigmond
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Prodigaldax wrote:
And finally, the nail in the coffin, this is literally the only post your account has ever made. You created this account to post this troll post alone. Get out of here.


I don't want to distract this thread yet further from its original topic, but Rhett, I'm afraid this is flat out wrong. I just clicked through to Glorfindel's user page, and found that, while they have not posted a lot, this is certainly not their first. They have been a member since February 2013, and started a thread (on the expansion for Mage Knight) in September 2013. (And have replied to other threads, although I didn't check these out.)
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Sam Hillier
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asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:
An opinion is the way throughout one can say what he thinks about something with no further commitment.


That's... completely wrong. For every opinion you have, you should be able to explain why you hold it. Otherwise, why believe it instead of something else? Holding an opinion brings with it an obligation, and that is to explain why you hold it. And that is precisely what an argument does. If you can't provide that, your opinion is worthless: just empty words.

No one really cares what your opinion is, we only care about why you hold it. Back up your belief, or you add nothing to the conversation.
 
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Destrio Dai
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I find that the BGG rank only tells me how much I should be interested in trying out a game (a good marketing tool), not so much how good I think it is compared to other games. I think an indication of a good game is how long it stays at a high rank and even then, that is not a good measure of how much an individual will have fun playing it or if it is a good fit for a particular group.

But to be on topic, TM hitting #3 makes me that much more interested in trying it or acquiring it despite the time and cost investment.
 
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that Matt
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Prodigaldax wrote:
asfaloth_glorfindel wrote:



I ask myself why I am being treated as Troll just because I am not sharing the same opinion as you about a matter. That is not nice.



You're being treated like a troll because you:

a) tracked down a game you knew you didn't like - though you have probably played it once so good luck judging it fairly

b) you went on to boardgamegeek and went through the effort of hunting down the forums for said game

c) you entered the forum, found the first thread talking about how good it was and blasted the traditional "I hate this and this is a crap game" troll post

For the record, a much better guess is that this user:

a) Went to boardgamegeek.com and clicked on this thread on the front page.

By default, "active" threads from game forums appear on the user's front page. That means that as soon as a thread receives a reply, it's at the top of that list.
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