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http://theweek.com/article/index/267445/speedreads-rand-paul...



The Week wrote:
Rand Paul: As president I would 'destroy ISIS militarily'

Last week, Kentucky senator and 2016 presidential hopeful Rand Paul wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal slating the policies of so-called "interventionists" such as Hillary Clinton, arguing that their policies in Syria against the Assad government have "abetted ISIS". In that piece Paul outlined his support for a far more cautious and significantly less interventionist foreign policy:

A more realistic foreign policy would recognize that there are evil people and tyrannical regimes in this world, but also that America cannot police or solve every problem across the globe. [The Wall Street Journal]

So you'd expect Rand Paul to follow his own advice, right?

Nope. On Friday, Paul told The Associated Press in an email that he was very, very much in favor of military force when it came to ISIS:

If I were president, I would call a joint session of Congress. I would lay out the reasoning of why ISIS is a threat to our national security and seek congressional authorization to destroy ISIS militarily. [AP]

That goes far and away beyond Obama's limited interventions against ISIS, which have so far amounted to humanitarian aid for those displaced by ISIS' advances, as well as limited air strikes and other support for Kurdish and Iraqi government fighters on the ground.

Paul's father, the outspoken non-interventionist former presidential candidate Ron, remains steadfastly against military intervention of any kind, arguing: "I think the sooner we get out of there, the better. I think the policy we should follow is one designed to allow the Iraqis to solve all their problems and stay out of this and let them deal with it because we tried for a long time."
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Dave G
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To the surprise of no one. He's seen daddy fail time and time again running on the true believer platform. Unlike his dad, he's going to put winning ahead of idealism, and winning means getting in bed with the mainstream GOP voter.
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Dave G
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Drew1365 wrote:
Libertarian ≠ Pacifist.

Libertarian ≠ Isolationist.


Libertarian = I dunno...I guess whatever Obama's not doing
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A libertarian that is not an isolationist is one that believes everyone else is free to be exactly like he is.
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The problem being there are more than a few folks that do "we gotta bomb the fuck outta them dirty Aye-rab camel-jockeys for 'Murica!" way better than he does. Does it make sense to attempt to out-crazy the likes of Rick Perry and Ted Cruz? Especially at the expense of looking like the world's biggest hypocrite? (Which, incidentally, both his Repub opponents AND Democrat opponents can/will easily seize upon now.)

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fightcitymayor wrote:
The problem being there are more than a few folks that do "we gotta bomb the fuck outta them dirty Aye-rab camel-jockeys for 'Murica!" way better than he does. Does it make sense to attempt to out-crazy the likes of Rick Perry and Ted Cruz? Especially at the expense of looking like the world's biggest hypocrite? (Which, incidentally, both his Repub opponents AND Democrat opponents can/will easily seize upon now.)



I didn't say it was a good strategy.
 
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Not sure how rand wanting to bomb people says anything about his libertarianism.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Not sure how rand wanting to bomb people says anything about his libertarianism.


It just says something about his lack of libertarianism and his surplus of panderingism.

If he became President, he'd end up another Patriot Act suck-up like Obama became and once he got a taste of the sweet, sweet buzz of no-transparency drone-murders he'd be sending those babies out just as fast as Obama does.
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It's not necessarily anti-libertarian to destroy ISIS if
Quote:
ISIS is a threat to our national security


So the questions are whether they are, to what extent, and how the threat can be handled.
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Not sure how rand wanting to bomb people says anything about his libertarianism.


It just says something about his lack of libertarianism and his surplus of panderingism.

If he became President, he'd end up another Patriot Act suck-up like Obama became and once he got a taste of the sweet, sweet buzz of no-transparency drone-murders he'd be sending those babies out just as fast as Obama does.
If he genuinely believes ISIS is a threat why would he (as a libertarian) not see a need to act. I would agree that if this is just a case of bombing ISIS becasue he does not like their politics that would be hypocrisy. But as the US has gone out of it's way to pick a fight with ISIS it's hard to see what else any American leader can do others then try to win.
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:
It's not necessarily anti-libertarian to destroy ISIS if
Quote:
ISIS is a threat to our national security
So the questions are whether they are, to what extent, and how the threat can be handled.
And given the recent American history of non-libertarian rightwing viewpoints to declare anyone that remotely doesn't fit the 'Murica narrative to be "a threat to our national security" then Rand Paul's comments now place him in the Perry/Cruz/drum-beater sect of Republican candidates. This was formerly not the case (as evidenced by his comments regarding "interventionists" such as Hillary Clinton.)

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slatersteven wrote:
If he genuinely believes ISIS is a threat why would he (as a libertarian) not see a need to act. I would agree that if this is just a case of bombing ISIS becasue he does not like their politics that would be hypocrisy. But as the US has gone out of it's way to pick a fight with ISIS it's hard to see what else any American leader can do others then try to win.


I think that a Libertarian has a much higher bar for justification of foreign interventions than either of our Keystone parties usually use and even though I was being critical, before I truly condemned him as bending to wherever the wind blows, I'd need to hear his case that he claims he would make. I'd also like him to couch it in his long-term strategy regarding the Middle-East. If his goal is to withdraw from the middle-east and work towards U.S. self-sufficiency, is letting Iraq fall to ISIS really a matter of National Security? If we weren't in the region buying oil, protecting it and it's controllers and propping up oppressive monarchs, would they have any reason to strike at us? I don't know myself, but I'd like to hear his take. Just claiming that he has concluded that he'd like to start bombing and he'll let us know his justification when he actually is in a position to send the planes is somewhat of a posturing cop-out.
 
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bjlillo wrote:
Hasn't ISIS been promising attacks on US soil?


I'm not up to date on all their pronouncements, but I thought the actual threats to the U.S. itself were in response to being bombed by U.S. military aircraft.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


There is a thin line between Patriot and Nationalist.

Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
If he genuinely believes ISIS is a threat why would he (as a libertarian) not see a need to act. I would agree that if this is just a case of bombing ISIS becasue he does not like their politics that would be hypocrisy. But as the US has gone out of it's way to pick a fight with ISIS it's hard to see what else any American leader can do others then try to win.


I think that a Libertarian has a much higher bar for justification of foreign interventions than either of our Keystone parties usually use and even though I was being critical, before I truly condemned him as bending to wherever the wind blows, I'd need to hear his case that he claims he would make. I'd also like him to couch it in his long-term strategy regarding the Middle-East. If his goal is to withdraw from the middle-east and work towards U.S. self-sufficiency, is letting Iraq fall to ISIS really a matter of National Security? If we weren't in the region buying oil, protecting it and it's controllers and propping up oppressive monarchs, would they have any reason to strike at us? I don't know myself, but I'd like to hear his take. Just claiming that he has concluded that he'd like to start bombing and he'll let us know his justification when he actually is in a position to send the planes is somewhat of a posturing cop-out.
Except that now they are (as a result of...OMAMA!...) they are now a threat to your national security, as you are at war with them.

I wouild be more interested to know where did Randy stand before the US decided to make enemies?
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


There is a thin line between Patriot and Nationalist.

Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.


And it makes you look like an ass, like I said.

It's also a preemptive strike on anyone who might dare to suggest, hey, maybe it's okay to be pro-America. Because you've already characterized such a person as a neanderthal.

You pretend there's nuance as a cover for your sneering condescension for anyone who might prefer America to other nations, and you think it gives you the moral high ground.
You can be pro-American and still not want to bomb the shit out of people who have not threatened you. Of course all rather moot as you have started to bomb them, so now they want to bomb you back (odd that, must be anti-Americans).
 
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Rulesjd wrote:


Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

True.
Rulesjd wrote:

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.

Meh. In my circles and in the places I've lived the 'Murica thing is most frequently used by smug leftists advertising their feelings of intellectual superiority. In its most typical application it's obnoxious.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


There is a thin line between Patriot and Nationalist.

Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.


And it makes you look like an ass, like I said.

It's a straw man. Painting your interlocutors as rednecks clears the street for your emptiest arguments. It's also a preemptive strike on anyone who might dare to suggest, hey, maybe it's okay to be pro-America. Because you've already characterized such a person as a neanderthal.

You pretend there's nuance as a cover for your sneering condescension for anyone who might prefer America to other nations, and you think it gives you the moral high ground.


Remember, in the gospel of Matthew Jesus said "Americans are the chosen people, and fuck everyone else right in the eye."
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:


Meh. In my circles and in the places I've lived the 'Murica thing is most frequently used by smug leftists advertising their feelings of intellectual superiority. In its most typical application it's obnoxious.


But when it annoys Drew it's practically divine.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


There is a thin line between Patriot and Nationalist.

Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.


And it makes you look like an ass, like I said.

It's a straw man. Painting your interlocutors as rednecks clears the street for your emptiest arguments. It's also a preemptive strike on anyone who might dare to suggest, hey, maybe it's okay to be pro-America. Because you've already characterized such a person as a neanderthal.

You pretend there's nuance as a cover for your sneering condescension for anyone who might prefer America to other nations, and you think it gives you the moral high ground.


Remember, in the gospel of Matthew Jesus said "Americans are the chosen people, and fuck everyone else right in the eye."

Pretty sure that's from the Book of Mormon.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


There is a thin line between Patriot and Nationalist.

Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.


And it makes you look like an ass, like I said.

It's a straw man. Painting your interlocutors as rednecks clears the street for your emptiest arguments. It's also a preemptive strike on anyone who might dare to suggest, hey, maybe it's okay to be pro-America. Because you've already characterized such a person as a neanderthal.

You pretend there's nuance as a cover for your sneering condescension for anyone who might prefer America to other nations, and you think it gives you the moral high ground.


Remember, in the gospel of Matthew Jesus said "Americans are the chosen people, and fuck everyone else right in the eye."

Pretty sure that's from the Book of Mormon.


I can't keep them straight. Six of one, etc.
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I figure that Thomas Jefferson might have been the closest thing to a libertarian president. He took on the Barbary pirates. Of course, some libertarians dislike the fact he also "unilaterally purchased Louisiana Territory."

Ranks #15 here. (Lincoln #41, Obama #42, G. W. Bush #43)

http://xaviercromartie.blogspot.com/2009/12/libertarian-rank...

(Jefferson is #26 on Ivan Eland's list and #7 on the Vedder/Gallaway list.)
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Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


Oooooohhhhh.... I like how you just defined "patriotism" to fit some narrow forms of expression and how those who don't fit that type of expression are somehow suddenly "not patriotic." Well done, very subtle.

"I love this country so much that if you don't express your love for it the way I do, then you clearly don't love this country."
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Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.
OH, the irony!
The right-wing of America has been propping up a straw-man for decades by referring pejoratively to anyone who didn't toe their company line as "liberals," (or "libtards" here in the oh-so-enlightened RSP) but turn that game around and slap a label on them and watch as they whine & scream & stomp their feet & cry about mischaracterization.

I am happy to strike a nerve, it means I'm getting to the truth.

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jarredscott78 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Can you knock off the 'Murica shit? I know you use it to suggest anyone who is patriotic is a knuck-dragging redneck.

It makes you look like an ass.


There is a thin line between Patriot and Nationalist.

Loving your country is all well and good. Wearing and blindfold and excusing everything done in the "name of" that country is another matter. We've had all too much of folks decrying their neighbors as "unpatriotic" for failing to agree to things like invading Iraq or voting for the putative Patriot Act.

There are far too many vocal nationalists in our midst. Lampooning them is entirely appropriate. The 'Murica stuff is part of that.


And it makes you look like an ass, like I said.

It's a straw man. Painting your interlocutors as rednecks clears the street for your emptiest arguments. It's also a preemptive strike on anyone who might dare to suggest, hey, maybe it's okay to be pro-America. Because you've already characterized such a person as a neanderthal.

You pretend there's nuance as a cover for your sneering condescension for anyone who might prefer America to other nations, and you think it gives you the moral high ground.


Remember, in the gospel of Matthew Jesus said "Americans are the chosen people, and fuck everyone else right in the eye."

Pretty sure that's from the Book of Mormon.


I know, right? It's like taking the Bible... then Americanizing it. And that makes it awesome, like the remake of Oldboy.
 
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