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Subject: Question on Applying Damage to Obstacles. rss

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David Polomis
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Does the order of how you play your damage cards matter when applying damage to an obstacle?

I understand that you have to clear each damage level of an obstacle in the order of its damage track but it isn't clear to me exactly on how you are allowed to apply damage to the levels. The examples given in the rulebook seem to apply damage in the order that the damage cards are played, so that damage from one card can clear a level and left over damage then spills over to the next damage level. This makes sense, but it doesn't say that you can only do it this way.

For example, let's say the obstacle has a damage track of:
2 uncolored / Red / Black / Blue.

And you play the following cards in this order:
1. Blue / 2 uncolored
2. Red
3. Black

Can you use the 2 uncolored from your first card to deal damage to the first level, then use the Red and Black for the second and third, and then use the Blue from the first card to do damage to the last damage level?
OR
Does the Blue damage get wasted and you only clear the first three damage levels.

In other words does all of the damage you do go into a pool and you can distribute the damage to the obstacle as you see fit or do you apply damage in the order you played the cards? From my understanding of the rules there's nothing that says that you can or can't do it either way.

I believe this is important to know because using one way or the other can affect how you decide to play cards.



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Big Head Zach
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Polomease wrote:
In other words does all of the damage you do go into a pool and you can distribute the damage to the obstacle as you see fit or do you apply damage in the order you played the cards? From my understanding of the rules there's nothing that says that you can or can't do it either way.
It's exactly that - a pool (or more accurately, a set of 5 pools, 4 colored, 1 colorless) of damage that accumulates as you play cards, similar to other deckbuilders like Ascension or Legendary. Since damage is not even assigned until you have finished playing cards, the order in which the damage itself hits the pool is irrelevant.

What IS relevant is the additional effects of cards besides damage (particularly Assists from other players). Some of them definitely require that you play other types of cards before them, and in that sense, play order does matter.

But do note that damage pools are specific to the obstacle that the cards are played in front of - you can choose the order in which damage for a particular obstacle is applied to it, but you cannot split the damage from a single source/card among multiple obstacles unless an effect allows it (the shotgun, for example).
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Rick Pufky
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Damage goes into a damage pool and is then applied to the obstacle as needed. I know it is called out somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. You can kind of see an example of this on page 15 of the rulebook though. Guiding Spirit is the card in question where the damage gets split across damage levels.
 
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Dave,

I just read the rules as well and feel like the previous two posts are correct!

It's a weird concept. They explicitly call out in the rulebook that if an assist action adds damage, the current player can assign that. In MTG terms, the cards add mana to your pool which you can spend across any combination of levels.

Follow up question:

I believe the rules suggest that you can only use damage from one card on 1 obstacle. You could not for example use a card that provides 2 damage to deal one to one enemy and 1 to another. I think this isn't super clear though. Any thoughts?

The game already seems very difficult and that scenario seems very edge case, so maybe house rule it depending on the type of card and if it makes in-world sense.
 
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CalicoDave
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PandaEskimo wrote:
... I believe the rules suggest that you can only use damage from one card on 1 obstacle. You could not for example use a card that provides 2 damage to deal one to one enemy and 1 to another. I think this isn't super clear though. Any thoughts?
That is correct. The card is played on an obstacle and then the damage from all the cards played on the obstable form the "damage pool" that the current runner applies.
 
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David Polomis
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Thanks everyone for your input, it seems the consensus is that it's a damage pool, which I was hoping that it would be because the game is hard enough as is.



PandaEskimo wrote:

Follow up question:
I believe the rules suggest that you can only use damage from one card on 1 obstacle. You could not for example use a card that provides 2 damage to deal one to one enemy and 1 to another. I think this isn't super clear though. Any thoughts?
On page 13 under "1. Play Cards" in the top paragraph in the right column it says that "Some card abilities can damage more than one obstacle." which would imply that only cards with this ability can do that and by default cards without it can't.
That's about the closest thing I can find on this question.
Just like my question, it's implied but not explicitly stated.

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Thanks for putting that here, Dave.

There is always the pull between "If it isn't prohibited, you can do it." and "If it isn't stated that you can, you cannot do it."

The MTG player in me wants to go with the first since it seems more absolute. In lot's of these games though, it makes more sense to feel out the rules and try to make judgements about what the rules imply rather than just state. Like your example of saying "some card abilities".

For fun ,

If we take the hard line on this, it could be interpreted as such. It's talking about abilities there, which we don't know NEEDS to apply to regular damage from cards. Also, even if this applied to normal damage, saying that some things can damage multiple does not exclude other things from being able to damage multiple as well.

I don't believe that that is the intent of the rules and I doubt it makes much difference in the game. Sometimes I just like to fuss with the rules for the fun of it.

Part of my day job is to also write and assist in writing acceptance criteria for development tasks (Agile stories). That has more severe repercussions .
 
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Derek VDG
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Cards are played on specific obstacles.

If a card has an ability to affect multiple obstacles, you use tokens to indicate on those other obstacles that they are affected by a card not assigned to it.
 
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Bret Callender
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Instead, put it next to the obstacle that you want to damage with the card (you can damage obstacles facing any runner). You don’t place cards into your discard until after you apply damage.
Once you finish playing cards, you apply damage from the cards you’ve played. Choose an obstacle that you’ve placed cards (or markers) next to and apply the damage from those cards and/ or markers to the obstacles as explained below
Pg13.
 
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Travis Williams
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DAMAGE is not a damage pool?
Where Does is say this please show me in the rules.
 
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Travis Williams
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Every example that I read in the manual showed no examples of saving a damage to be used on a different damage level. this example might be more clear. Using a modified lighting mage from page 15 of the rule book

IF The lighting mage damage levels are

2 colorless/mage/mage/skill/skill. and using the same 4 cards from the example on page 15 of the rule book.

The lighting mage would NOT be defeated.

Under the impression that you could not carry over the skill damage from the Coordinated attack to either of the skill damage needed.
Every example that is in the book support this statement.
If I missed a example in the rule book that supports damage is a damage pool and I can assign damage in any order I wish please show me.
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Sean McCarthy
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Travis, thanks for pointing out that none of the examples involve applying damage from a single card to two nonconsecutive levels. Maybe we can make it more explicit in the next printing.

You ARE supposed to be able to do that. The rulebook says:

"Choose an obstacle you've placed cards (or markers) next to and apply the damage from those cards and/or markers to the obstacle as explained below. Once you've applied the damage to an obstacle, put all the cards next to the obstacle into the discard..."

The rules do not talk about applying the damage from a single card at a time. They talk about applying the damage from all the cards you played next to the obstacle. (Lightning Bolt and the Sniper Rifle are exceptions since they explicitly say two consecutive levels.)

I can see how you could start with the assumption that a card's damage needs to be applied together as a unit, and find nothing in the rulebook that explicitly corrects you. Hopefully this reply will do, and we'll add it to the FAQ when possible.
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David Polomis
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Travis, thanks for pointing out that none of the examples involve applying damage from a single card to two nonconsecutive levels. Maybe we can make it more explicit in the next printing.

You ARE supposed to be able to do that. The rulebook says:

"Choose an obstacle you've placed cards (or markers) next to and apply the damage from those cards and/or markers to the obstacle as explained below. Once you've applied the damage to an obstacle, put all the cards next to the obstacle into the discard..."

The rules do not talk about applying the damage from a single card at a time. They talk about applying the damage from all the cards you played next to the obstacle. (Lightning Bolt and the Sniper Rifle are exceptions since they explicitly say two consecutive levels.)

I can see how you could start with the assumption that a card's damage needs to be applied together as a unit, and find nothing in the rulebook that explicitly corrects you. Hopefully this reply will do, and we'll add it to the FAQ when possible.
So Sean, just to be clear, the idea of putting the damage into a 'pool' is the correct way. It doesn't matter which cards the damage comes from it all goes into a 'pool' and then can be applied as needed to the Obstacle.
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Sean McCarthy
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Yes, you can think of it as there being a damage "pool" for each obstacle.
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Travis Williams
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well if this is the case the game got a lot easier.

I was stuck on the examples of damage. nothing indicated a pool of damage that I can assign to an obstacle in any order I wish as long as I start from the 1st damage level and work to the right.

I was sure I was right.
The game rules are well done I never even suspected.
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Paul Morgan
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This totally changes the game for me.
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Joel Carr
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Wow, glad i came here to check this out. I was having a terrible (but quite fun) time... Order of operations and all that....

Much easier to think of it as a pool of damage played against a obstacle.
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Yes, you can think of it as there being a damage "pool" for each obstacle.
But does this also mean that all of the colorless damage goes into a pool that can be distributed however you like (toward a single obstacle)?


For instance, let's say the obstacle is this:

[2 colorless] [black] [blue] [2 colorless]

I have 2 cards that deal the following:

[5 colorless] [black]

[blue]

... can I defeat the obstacle just by playing those 2 cards?


I've been playing that you can't do that.
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Kurt R
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Alphaborn wrote:
Every example that I read in the manual showed no examples of saving a damage to be used on a different damage level. this example might be more clear. Using a modified lighting mage from page 15 of the rule book

IF The lighting mage damage levels are

2 colorless/mage/mage/skill/skill. and using the same 4 cards from the example on page 15 of the rule book.

The lighting mage would NOT be defeated.

Under the impression that you could not carry over the skill damage from the Coordinated attack to either of the skill damage needed.
Every example that is in the book support this statement.
If I missed a example in the rule book that supports damage is a damage pool and I can assign damage in any order I wish please show me.
I was under the same impression. Holy crap, I've been playing on a harder level than necessary. This is great news.

I may use colored dice to help me sort out damage as my deck gets bigger.
 
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Kurt R
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Wretched Git wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
Yes, you can think of it as there being a damage "pool" for each obstacle.
But does this also mean that all of the colorless damage goes into a pool that can be distributed however you like (toward a single obstacle)?


For instance, let's say the obstacle is this:

[2 colorless] [black] [blue] [2 colorless]

I have 2 cards that deal the following:

[5 colorless] [black]

[blue]

... can I defeat the obstacle just by playing those 2 cards?


I've been playing that you can't do that.
I would have to think you could defeat the obstacle with those 2 cards because it all goes into a virtual pool to be doled out as you see fit -- but only for each obstacle.

As I said above, I may use colored dice to help me track my damage pools as I spend the points from them.
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enzo622 wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
Yes, you can think of it as there being a damage "pool" for each obstacle.
But does this also mean that all of the colorless damage goes into a pool that can be distributed however you like (toward a single obstacle)?


For instance, let's say the obstacle is this:

[2 colorless] [black] [blue] [2 colorless]

I have 2 cards that deal the following:

[5 colorless] [black]

[blue]

... can I defeat the obstacle just by playing those 2 cards?


I've been playing that you can't do that.
I would have to think you could defeat the obstacle with those 2 cards because it all goes into a virtual pool to be doled out as you see fit -- but only for each obstacle.

As I said above, I may use colored dice to help me track my damage pools as I spend the points from them.
Hm, it seems fishy to me. I've been playing that you need to treat a single colorless damage circle (on a black market card) as an indivisible unit. It either takes care of another single colorless circle, or it doesn't. But I can't find any info on this question.
 
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Wretched Git wrote:
Hm, it seems fishy to me. I've been playing that you need to treat a single colorless damage circle (on a black market card) as an indivisible unit. It either takes care of another single colorless circle, or it doesn't. But I can't find any info on this question.
Ok, now I'd like to reverse myself. The situation doesn't actually come up that often, but it does seem more confusing to keep track of things if you don't let yourself just pool all the colorless amounts. Now I'm doubting it was designed to be played as I had thought...

But I'd still like to hear an official answer. Can a single "circle" of colorless damage carry over to 2 different colorless targets? Can a [5] colorless take care of two levels, like [2] and [2]?
 
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Kurt R
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Wretched Git wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Hm, it seems fishy to me. I've been playing that you need to treat a single colorless damage circle (on a black market card) as an indivisible unit. It either takes care of another single colorless circle, or it doesn't. But I can't find any info on this question.
Ok, now I'd like to reverse myself. The situation doesn't actually come up that often, but it does seem more confusing to keep track of things if you don't let yourself just pool all the colorless amounts. Now I'm doubting it was designed to be played as I had thought...

But I'd still like to hear an official answer. Can a single "circle" of colorless damage carry over to 2 different colorless targets? Can a [5] colorless take care of two levels, like [2] and [2]?
From what I read in this thread, you play cards to an obstacle then pool all the damage from those cards. That's why I said above I may use colored dice. If you pool all the damage then you could use dice for all your red, blue, green, black, and grey (use a white die) damage. Total it all up on each die then spend it as needed when applying damage to the obstacle.

If that's not correct then I'm misreading what "pool of damage" means.
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enzo622 wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Hm, it seems fishy to me. I've been playing that you need to treat a single colorless damage circle (on a black market card) as an indivisible unit. It either takes care of another single colorless circle, or it doesn't. But I can't find any info on this question.
Ok, now I'd like to reverse myself. The situation doesn't actually come up that often, but it does seem more confusing to keep track of things if you don't let yourself just pool all the colorless amounts. Now I'm doubting it was designed to be played as I had thought...

But I'd still like to hear an official answer. Can a single "circle" of colorless damage carry over to 2 different colorless targets? Can a [5] colorless take care of two levels, like [2] and [2]?
From what I read in this thread, you play cards to an obstacle then pool all the damage from those cards. That's why I said above I may use colored dice. If you pool all the damage then you could use dice for all your red, blue, green, black, and grey (use a white die) damage. Total it all up on each die then spend it as needed when applying damage to the obstacle.

If that's not correct then I'm misreading what "pool of damage" means.
Right, you're probably right. The only reason I hesitate is that the "pool of damage" metaphor was not introduced by Mr. McCarthy, although he did agree that you could describe it that way. I'm just wondering if he had in mind this particular kind of situation when he did so.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Yes, you can totally do that!
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