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Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rules Questions rss

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Jonathan Folkert
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1. My understanding is that Stone Calendar can discard success tokens on your own fated characters to pay the cost of its ability. Is this correct? It seems like this would be comically powerful.

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/CoC/CoCCards.html/_/the-...

2. If Jacob Finnegan is committed to a story (as the attacker), and the story is won via the Investigation struggle, does he return to the bottom of the deck, since the attacker won the story before the skill check, and thus he has not succeeded at the story where Jacob was committed?

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/CoC/CoCCards.html/_/deni...

3. Can Elisabetta Magro use her ability on a story where only one player has a character committed? I believe so, since the phrase is followed by "if able."

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/CoC/CoCCards.html/_/terr...
 
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David Boeren
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1. Yes, Stone Calendar can do this. It's pretty handy.

2. Correct, he did not succeed so he would go to the bottom.

3. Looks fine to me due to the "if able"
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Jason Conlon
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KirovThug wrote:
1. My understanding is that Stone Calendar can discard success tokens on your own fated characters to pay the cost of its ability. Is this correct? It seems like this would be comically powerful.

dboeren wrote:
1. Yes, Stone Calendar can do this. It's pretty handy.

Agree - you can use Stone Calendar to discard success tokens on your cards (e.g. from Fated characters) as well as from your side of stories in play.

KirovThug wrote:
2. If Jacob Finnegan is committed to a story (as the attacker), and the story is won via the Investigation struggle, does he return to the bottom of the deck, since the attacker won the story before the skill check, and thus he has not succeeded at the story where Jacob was committed?

dboeren wrote:
2. Correct, he did not succeed so he would go to the bottom.

Disagree - When a story is won, the story resolution immediately ends and those characters are uncommitted. The skill check never happens and consequently Jacob Finnegan's Forced Response never triggers.
Note also that 'succeed' (and 'not succeed') are checks made by the active player (i.e. attacker) only, so Jacob Finnegan's Forced Response never triggers when he is defending a story.

From the Core Rules --
Determine Success
After the four icon struggles, the active player determines if he has been successful at the story. He now adds the combined skill values of all his characters currently committed to the story. This number is the total skill. If the total skill value of the active player exceeds the total skill value of his opponent, then the active player may place a success token on his side of the story being resolved.

Winning A Story Card
Immediately after a player has won a story card (which happens the moment that a player has five or more success tokens on his side of the story card), that player takes the story card, chooses whether or not to execute its effect, and then places it prominently in his game area, faceup, to indicate that he has won the story. This occurs before resolution of the next story card begins.
After a story card has been won, and its effect executed or declined, it is replaced by a new story card from the story deck. Thus, if a story card has been won before it is fully resolved (usually by having the fifth token placed from an investigation struggle), it is replaced, and the resolution of that story is over.
Characters that were committed to a story that was won are no longer considered committed to any story.


KirovThug wrote:
3. Can Elisabetta Magro use her ability on a story where only one player has a character committed? I believe so, since the phrase is followed by "if able."

dboeren wrote:
3. Looks fine to me due to the "if able"

Agree - Because of the words "if able", Elisabetta Magro can use her ability if there is at least one committed character to be targeted.
See also this discussion with Damon Stone regarding the FAQ examples of Byakhee Attack and Julia Brown in relation to "choose" and "if able".
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jasonconlon wrote:
Note also that 'succeed' (and 'not succeed') are checks made by the active player (i.e. attacker) only, so Jacob Finnegan's Forced Response never triggers when he is defending a story.
Are you absolutely sure about this?

I vaguely remember a long time ago someone asked about this on the FFG forum, but I don't recall how or if it was resolved.

Jacob Finnegan says:
Quote:
Forced Response: When you do not succeed at a story where Jacob Finnegan is committed, put him on the bottom of his owner's deck.


Note that it doesn't say 'when you lose at a story' (which would indeed only be possible as the active player).
Imho, you also don't succeed when you defend using Jacob, since you _cannot_ succeed, as you correctly pointed out.
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David Boeren
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This does not sound right to me either. The attacker may succeed or not depending on whether he wins skill. The defender can never succeed. It does not matter who makes the check, and to be frank I don't think there is even a concept of who is making the check. The only distinction is that the active player is the only one who can "succeed". When the defending player wins skill, it is just not called succeeding.
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Jason Conlon
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Feel free to submit a rules question to Damon for official confirmation, but the rules themselves seem quite clear that:
i) the skill check doesn't occur until after the four icon struggles, and that this skill check doesn't occur at all if the story is won prior to that point; and
ii) only the active player can succeed or not, as they make the skill check.

Re-quoting the key points from the Core Rules --
Determine Success
After the four icon struggles, the active player determines if he has been successful at the story.
Winning A Story Card
...Thus, if a story card has been won before it is fully resolved (usually by having the fifth token placed from an investigation struggle), it is replaced, and the resolution of that story is over.


The FAQ also confirms that 'succeed' (and conversely 'not succeed') only relates to the active player:
Q) Is it possible for the defending player to succeed at a story?
A) No. The skill check is to determine whether or not the active player is successful. If the inactive player has equal or greater skill than the active player he has kept the active player from succeeding at the stroy, but has not himself been successful.
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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jasonconlon wrote:
The FAQ also confirms that 'succeed' (and conversely 'not succeed') only relates to the active player:
Q) Is it possible for the defending player to succeed at a story?
A) No. The skill check is to determine whether or not the active player is successful. If the inactive player has equal or greater skill than the active player he has kept the active player from succeeding at the story, but has not himself been successful.

I think this language supports what David just said. Finnegan's text doesn't say that he gets removed to the bottom of the deck when his player "fails a skill check," but rather when he "doesn't succeed" in a turn where Finnegan is committed. So committing him to a story on defense may be useful, but you're kissing him goodbye.
FAQ wrote:
Q) Is it possible for the defending player to succeed at a story?
A) No.

It may be worth noting that a Syndicate player might have some tricks to recover Jacob quickly from the bottom of the deck...
 
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Jason Conlon
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Carthoris wrote:
I think this language supports what David just said. Finnegan's text doesn't say that he gets removed to the bottom of the deck when his player "fails a skill check," but rather when he "doesn't succeed" in a turn where Finnegan is committed. So committing him to a story on defense may be useful, but you're kissing him goodbye.

The concept of 'succeed' is not applicable to the inactive player - because they cannot be successful, they cannot be unsuccessful either.
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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jasonconlon wrote:
The concept of 'succeed' is not applicable to the inactive player - because they cannot be successful, they cannot be unsuccessful either.

I realize that's (roughly) your contention, but it still seems contradicted by the plain language of the FAQ. "Unsuccessful" does not appear in either the FAQ or the text of the card in question. What does appear on the card is "doesn't succeed." If you "can't succeed" (per the FAQ), then you "don't succeed" (for the purpose of the card). Seems straightforward to me, and doesn't require creating a new category of "being unsuccessful" (defined as failing a skill check).
 
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Jason Conlon
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I've submitted a rules question to FFG, and will report back the response.
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Jason Conlon
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Damon's provided clarification on Jacob Finnegan's "do not succeed" ability as follows:
Damon Stone wrote:
As long as a skill check is made at a story at which Jacob Finnegan is committed that you do not succeed at (regardless if you are the active or inactive player) his forced response will trigger. If there is no skill check then it will not.


This confirms that, in answer to KirovThug's original question, Jacob Finnegan's Forced Response will not trigger if the story is won at the Investigation struggle stage.

It also corrects my previous (mis)understanding about the inactive player and the skill check - that if Jacob Finnegan ever does defend and is still present during the skill check then his "do not succeed" Forced Response will trigger and send him to the bottom of his owner's deck.

For the full conversation with Damon (which is mostly me babbling, sorry), see the You've Got Questions? I've Got Answers - Straight From Damon Stone topic in FFG's forums.
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Thanks for getting the official answer! I'm glad we've been playing Jacob Finnegan correctly.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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... and now it's in the FAQ!
 
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Brad Miller
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dboeren wrote:
1. Yes, Stone Calendar can do this. It's pretty handy.

2. Correct, he did not succeed so he would go to the bottom.

3. Looks fine to me due to the "if able"


Note that Stone Calendar was errattaed to restrict its use to story cards. So not legal on fated characters success tokens.
 
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