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Subject: Strategy questions for Destruction players rss

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Asen Aleksandrov
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Try to refrain from answering if you have not been actively playing a Destruction army with the expansion.

1. In what situations do you find Dark Majesty to be better than Intimidate?

2. I know it's hard to justify playing with Skaven, but has anyone used Ikit Claw yet? Is he fun/good?

3. When you use Vampires, how do you play when you don't have the initiative? It seems to me (and I might be wrong about this), that Vampires only excel when they control the command phase.

4. What do you think of Dire Wolves?

5. What do you think of Karond Kar Harpies and Dark Elves in general?
 
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Nushura
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peterpotamus wrote:

1. In what situations do you find Dark Majesty to be better than Intimidate?

Essentially we found out that the best you can do with Undead is Kamikaze and trade your opponent's units. Even if you trade 2 for 1...well, next turn you bring them back and kill again.

That means that the Undead heroes are in the back, and thus cannot use Intimidate well. If they can pin them you are already in trouble. Instead, Play dark majesty on the big dragon (if needed I will resurrect him first), and then charge him forward. This will make sure that he survives up to the melee phase where he can wreak havok.

peterpotamus wrote:
2. I know it's hard to justify playing with Skaven, but has anyone used Ikit Claw yet? Is he fun/good?

Actually we tried him the other day and he is surprisingly good! The ratting guns are nothing special, but the runners....man! Scout + 6 movement allow them to start in the middle of the board. If you win initiative you can start by rushing into the big cluster of units from your opponent! Their ranged attack is surprisingly good (specially being mobile), and Stealth make them resilient to ranged attacks.

It is a bit of a loss using 3 runners and 1 gun, but next time we will certainly try that!


3. When you use Vampires, how do you play when you don't have the initiative? It seems to me (and I might be wrong about this), that Vampires only excel when they control the command phase.[/q]
Indeed if they win initiative and pin everything they gain a great advantage...but they can be painful nonetheless. What I certainly do is protect my heroes, make sure that no one can get to them....but I do not activate them yet. This means that I could ressurrect the dragon (or Black Kinights) and send them to any skirmish to change the tides of the battle. Thus, my opponent(s) can either 1) overcommit to a battle so as to make sure they beat me even if I send the dragon or 2) create several skirmishes, knowing that my reinforcements can change the result into a few of them.

In both cases they are weakened because they cannot play optimally.

peterpotamus wrote:
4. What do you think of Dire Wolves?

Not bad, but nothing surprising. We have 1 in our undead army because they fit nicely with our army....but honestly, you rarely want to resurrect it (either 3 skeletons or a grave guard seem better options).

peterpotamus wrote:
5. What do you think of Karond Kar Harpies and Dark Elves in general?

Haven't tried them yet. We agreed that next time we will try builds that look suboptimal. One of us will have Karond, another will try Lizardmen (Wood Elves were also surprisingly good!), someone will try orcs with catapults,...and we have not decided on the 4th slot yet. Maybe an empire Priest army?
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Benjamin Bottorff
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I don't play destruction as much as with order but I have still tried out all the new stuff a couple times. Given your set of questions, you might want to take what I say with a grain of salt as my record with the vampire counts isn't great (I'd say I lose about 2/3 of the game).

1: I find that it's usually better than intimidate. The important thing to remember is that it lasts an entire round and it works against any enemy. Intimidate doesn't work on heroes and can be overcome by pinning your own disks. For the vampires where keeping your casters unpinned is your life blood being able to just say 'you can't pin this hero this turn,' period is useful. That said, I like to pick both intimidate and dark majesty.

2: I've used scaven several times and I actually find their regiment (with two rattling guns) to be somewhat viable, and Ikit is definitely fun and good. That said, I think scaven are useful mostly because chaos doesn't have a ton of great ranged units so having a regiment that can offset that somewhat can be nice. I'm not fond of the gutter runners but they can still trade well in some situations.

3: Mostly I die. I have won a few times with them but my overall record isn't great. I have never won when I've guessed wrong with the first command card of a critical turn. Now, that is frequently enough to lose you a game with any faction but it's never anywhere near as bad as with the vampires (and in fact, my favorite factions, dwarves, empire, and wood elves are in part my favorite because I feel they have this problem less than the rest).

4: I like them quite a bit. They're a reanimate with a long range and do just enough damage that they can get value. Also, unlike skeletons they do damage on defense. That said, I rarely have too many of them as I view them more as a way of giving your aspiring necromancers a renewable reliable pin/4 damagee missile that can be used from way out of harms way than a major part of the army themselves.

5: Unlike the scaven, I have no idea what anyone is supposed to do with the dark elves. I have had only two wins with a dark elf regiment ever, both of which were with the flanker army I posted and both of which were against someone who'd never seen the trick before (and in both of which I had decent luck). I don't think I've seen anyone else win with them either. The harpies seem like they'd be a great support unit but they have a couple fundamental problems. The first is the basic idea that as they can't kill units by themselves generally, it takes more effort it to destroy enemies with them than it would with another unit that could just kill the enemy by themselves (and they aren't cheap). The second, is that they have to be alive for their ability to be effective. Since combat happens from the top down this means that it's hard to rescue anyone with a harpy unless the harpy can kill it yourself (unlikely) or it has less than 3 counter attack (again, unlikely for front line enemies) the harpy will be dead before the slow it provides helps anyone. At the point where you have to have something help a harpy save someone, it's hard to justify the efficiency. Now, they are easy to rescue if they are pinned, but this assumes your enemy doesn't just impact them to death or something similar. So as a support unit that has to be on the frontline, can't do much by itself, and isn't cheap, I feel they are a bit lackluster and I actually prefer the corsairs. That said, there will be that rare situation where they will be exactly what is needed and your enemy won't have already killed them. As for the other darkelf stuff, the hero is okish, the corsairs are alright as long as you have the hero. I have seen the cloaked in shadow be useful exactly once and it was to prevent the corsairs from hitting themselves with their own missile attack. It's possible if I could field an entire three regiment army of dark elves that a card like that might be worth having in an army but I'm a little dubious.

EDIT: At the above post, you can't put dark majesty on the dragon, only on casters.
EDIT2: Also, the gutter runners are not mobile. They have stealth and scout. The rattling guns have mobile which is a major part of the reason I find them useful.
EDIT3: I have just felt like expressing this for a bit so I will say, I find both the slan and the wood elf regiments to be very nice.
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Asen Aleksandrov
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Velensk wrote:
3: Mostly I die. I have won a few times with them but my overall record isn't great. I have never won when I've guessed wrong with the first command card of a critical turn. Now, that is frequently enough to lose you a game with any faction but it's never anywhere near as bad as with the vampires (and in fact, my favorite factions, dwarves, empire, and wood elves are in part my favorite because I feel they have this problem less than the rest).

Bummer, that was my impression too. I got a little bummed out when I realized every VC game I'd won was with initiative, so I came up with a Vargheist-heavy list that hopefully wont rely on it so much. Haven't had a chance to test it yet.

Velensk wrote:
5: Unlike the scaven, I have no idea what anyone is supposed to do with the dark elves. I have had only two wins with a dark elf regiment ever, both of which were with the flanker army I posted and both of which were against someone who'd never seen the trick before (and in both of which I had decent luck). I don't think I've seen anyone else win with them either. The harpies seem like they'd be a great support unit but they have a couple fundamental problems. The first is the basic idea that as they can't kill units by themselves generally, it takes more effort it to destroy enemies with them than it would with another unit that could just kill the enemy by themselves (and they aren't cheap). The second, is that they have to be alive for their ability to be effective. Since combat happens from the top down this means that it's hard to rescue anyone with a harpy unless the harpy can kill it yourself (unlikely) or it has less than 3 counter attack (again, unlikely for front line enemies) the harpy will be dead before the slow it provides helps anyone. At the point where you have to have something help a harpy save someone, it's hard to justify the efficiency. Now, they are easy to rescue if they are pinned, but this assumes your enemy doesn't just impact them to death or something similar. So as a support unit that has to be on the frontline, can't do much by itself, and isn't cheap, I feel they are a bit lackluster and I actually prefer the corsairs.

Great analysis. I want to use them so badly, but I will have to wait until (and if) the DE get a full army.
 
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Nushura
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Velensk wrote:

EDIT: At the above post, you can't put dark majesty on the dragon, only on casters.
EDIT2: Also, the gutter runners are not mobile. They have stealth and scout. The rattling guns have mobile which is a major part of the reason I find them useful.
EDIT3: I have just felt like expressing this for a bit so I will say, I find both the slan and the wood elf regiments to be very nice.


Indeed, my bad. In any case, I used Dark Majestly mostly defensively as you said. To discourage bringing units towards my hero. Intimidate feels better on the offensive .

Gutter are not mobile, but they still rock hard. The scout allows them to start in the middle of the field, reach close combat in first turn and while the opponent is focused in clearing them you have a lot of time to bring your other units to battle. Great combination with a melee oriented Orc team.

Oh, and by "slan" I guess you mean lizardmen?
 
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Asen Aleksandrov
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Nushura wrote:
Oh, and by "slan" I guess you mean lizardmen?


I thought it was slaan. Turns out it's slann.
 
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