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Subject: How to balance Base + FaF + WW? rss

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I had some concerns and/or rules questions. If these have already been answered in some FAQ or threads elsewhere, forgive me for not perusing each of them to check for these--I'm just writing what I remember from the past two games I have played.

Arabia
Infamously overpowered. FAQ 2.0 suggests nerfing their second ability so that when Arabs spend a resource token, they gain 1 culture instead of 2. But even that seems really powerful, especially given how easy it is now to harvest resources and just spend 4 of them on education (giving a free tech and 4-8 culture, depending). How have players found the FAQ nerf in experience? I know some players ban them completely or remove the first ability (starting with one resource of each in the market) too.

England
Ah yes, the only civ that comes with a detrimental "ability" (armies may cross water but never end their movement in it). How is this not incredibly underpowered, especially when the building program action only doubles production in one city's outskirts (even if those outskirts include production from army figures and scout figures)?

Greece
The nerf to the Greeks in FAQ 2.0 seems a bit extreme, even if the base ability is overpowered. One culture per other player translates to at most 5 culture (but in a 2 player game just one culture). Have people found this nerf balanced in practice? In a 2 player game with this nerf, the Greeks would at most get just a small handful of culture, which seems....dismally weak.

With the Rationalism social policy in WW, these guys seem even more overpowered than their base (unchanged) science ability suggests. Basically, you could save up enough trade (16) to research a level III tech, then on the next turn in the start of turn phase, research a level I tech and a level II tech with full knowledge of all the techs that other players have. So you get a guaranteed keeping 16 trade, and can then research another Level III on that turn. Thoughts? Or is learning a tech from Rationalism not the same as "research" per their ability text?

India
Unless scouts on other tiles count for the "outskirts" such that Indians can gain one extra culture for resources found on scout tiles when devoting to the arts, this civ seems underpowered. Player thoughts?

Mongols
These guys seem underpowered on paper, but win ~60% of their games according to recently compiled player-submitted stats. How is this so? They just don't have any economic abilities, which weakens them compared to other military civs like Germany, Spain, or Japan.

Building Projects
Do scouts count for the "outskirts of the city" for the purpose of doubling production on a building project? If so, that seems a tad overpowered. Do people house-rule this?

City-States
I am assuming the city state with one ? icon is a random resource icon. So does having an army on it allow harvesting a random resource? If so, does that resource come from the market? If so, how can that possibly be (a) decided as to which resource, when the market resources are double-sided (b) balanced?

Relics
I reread the FaF rules today and it looks like you gain the relic as soon as you end your movement there--that seems incredibly silly. Basically first discovered, first served?

How is School of Confucius at all balanced, especially with the Aztecs gaining it? TWO Great people? Most people would be happy with just one from a barbarian village.
 
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Jonas Larsen
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Arabia: Even after we nerfed them, we decided to remove them from the draft.

England: Im pretty sure the outskirt collected by the figures also Counts as the city-outskirt. However, England is still one of the weakest civs, but Navy is still nice to have.

Greece: The special only Works doing research phase (not rationalism) but if you play with the other version you will always get the tokens.. We have played a couple of games with Greek in a row where Greece had flight before any of us had a lvl 3 tech, so yea we decided to nerf them too. The free tech, and then using rationalism every sot, and then gaining enough trade to be able to tech a tech no other player has a chance to get because you are fare in front already is just too overpowered.

India: sucks...

Mongols -> go rush those pacifistic nations and gain that extra loot. Taking a tech just by attacking a scout is pretty sick. basicly fight more(but clever).

BP: Yes

CS: remember it cost a Capital action to harvest that ressource (unless you do in SoT with feudalism). And yes it comes from the market, where else do you get resources....?

Relic-> Stand on it first, gain its powers. The GP one is kinda sick, especially if you are a nation that gains from gaining GPs or have chosen Organized religion.
The one with 2 free men seems stupid compared to it.







 
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Mythdracon wrote:

England
Ah yes, the only civ that comes with a detrimental "ability" (armies may cross water but never end their movement in it).

I don't think you are reading this right. It doesn't prevent them from ever learning to end their movement on water. It just specifies that their DEFAULT ability is not enough to end on water

Quote:
Mongols
These guys seem underpowered on paper, but win ~60% of their games according to recently compiled player-submitted stats. How is this so? They just don't have any economic abilities, which weakens them compared to other military civs like Germany, Spain, or Japan.


Gaining one extra loot is deceptively powerful. It doesn't just mean that they can loot twice as much. It also allows them to gain 2-loot benefits (like stealing technology) from a normal battle.

Quote:
Building Projects
Do scouts count for the "outskirts of the city" for the purpose of doubling production on a building project? If so, that seems a tad overpowered. Do people house-rule this?

I believe it does, and it is powerful. It does bring wonders into play a lot more often. But it is not my impression that it is particularly game-breaking. It is just another option available.

Quote:
City-States
I am assuming the city state with one ? icon is a random resource icon. So does having an army on it allow harvesting a random resource? If so, does that resource come from the market? If so, how can that possibly be (a) decided as to which resource, when the market resources are double-sided (b) balanced?

I believe that ? means 'any resource', so the player chooses.

Quote:
Relics
I reread the FaF rules today and it looks like you gain the relic as soon as you end your movement there--that seems incredibly silly. Basically first discovered, first served?

How is School of Confucius at all balanced, especially with the Aztecs gaining it? TWO Great people? Most people would be happy with just one from a barbarian village.


I removed the relics from our games, so I do not remember the exact rules. As far as I recall, the relic areas are counterbalanced by having no huts/villages and fewer resources. They still seem like a very random boost, though. Hence their removal from my games.
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Mythdracon wrote:
I had some concerns and/or rules questions. If these have already been answered in some FAQ or threads elsewhere, forgive me for not perusing each of them to check for these--I'm just writing what I remember from the past two games I have played.

Arabia
Infamously overpowered. FAQ 2.0 suggests nerfing their second ability so that when Arabs spend a resource token, they gain 1 culture instead of 2. But even that seems really powerful, especially given how easy it is now to harvest resources and just spend 4 of them on education (giving a free tech and 4-8 culture, depending). How have players found the FAQ nerf in experience? I know some players ban them completely or remove the first ability (starting with one resource of each in the market) too.

England
Ah yes, the only civ that comes with a detrimental "ability" (armies may cross water but never end their movement in it). How is this not incredibly underpowered, especially when the building program action only doubles production in one city's outskirts (even if those outskirts include production from army figures and scout figures)?

Greece
The nerf to the Greeks in FAQ 2.0 seems a bit extreme, even if the base ability is overpowered. One culture per other player translates to at most 5 culture (but in a 2 player game just one culture). Have people found this nerf balanced in practice? In a 2 player game with this nerf, the Greeks would at most get just a small handful of culture, which seems....dismally weak.

With the Rationalism social policy in WW, these guys seem even more overpowered than their base (unchanged) science ability suggests. Basically, you could save up enough trade (16) to research a level III tech, then on the next turn in the start of turn phase, research a level I tech and a level II tech with full knowledge of all the techs that other players have. So you get a guaranteed keeping 16 trade, and can then research another Level III on that turn. Thoughts? Or is learning a tech from Rationalism not the same as "research" per their ability text?

India
Unless scouts on other tiles count for the "outskirts" such that Indians can gain one extra culture for resources found on scout tiles when devoting to the arts, this civ seems underpowered. Player thoughts?

Mongols
These guys seem underpowered on paper, but win ~60% of their games according to recently compiled player-submitted stats. How is this so? They just don't have any economic abilities, which weakens them compared to other military civs like Germany, Spain, or Japan.

Building Projects
Do scouts count for the "outskirts of the city" for the purpose of doubling production on a building project? If so, that seems a tad overpowered. Do people house-rule this?

City-States
I am assuming the city state with one ? icon is a random resource icon. So does having an army on it allow harvesting a random resource? If so, does that resource come from the market? If so, how can that possibly be (a) decided as to which resource, when the market resources are double-sided (b) balanced?

Relics
I reread the FaF rules today and it looks like you gain the relic as soon as you end your movement there--that seems incredibly silly. Basically first discovered, first served?

How is School of Confucius at all balanced, especially with the Aztecs gaining it? TWO Great people? Most people would be happy with just one from a barbarian village.



Arabia :

Since the nerf, we allow them to be played again. They still are very strong but not overpowered.

England :

They sucks, that's all to say ^^. The worst Civ in the game.

Greece :

One of the strongest Civ. They can get huge start with Democracy and Rationalism. The change of ability is necessary since W&W & rationalism. Still this new ability is dependent of the number of player, but Civ is mainly played with 3 or 4 players, which is good for this ability. 3 players game is the most balanced for their ability.

India :

Weak because of their starting tile and being forced to place their Metropolis on it. Otherwise since W&W, they get a little boost with education, as they can use it quite easy.

Mongols :

Hard to handle, but with a very destructive potential. They whole point of Mongols is to play wisely. The opponent knows your ability and ain't dumb to let free loot on your way. -> It's up to you to find solution to get free loot. Go for some Culture and get Migrants, Disoriented. Research higher travel speed tech at the good moment when you will move before your opponent.

BP :

Yep, scouts count, City-states count. Rest don't count.

30. The production bonuses given by Military Sciences (+1 hammer for each 3 coins) and by Urban Development Social Policy are calculated after doubling the production. So these bonuses will never be doubled.
31. Caravan markers are not doubled as they are not considered as being a part of the outskirt.
32. Production bonus given by Investments on Infrastructure is not doubled as it’s not considered as being part of the outskirts.
33. Production bonus given by Culture cards (ex. We Love the Despot Day), Resources (ex. Wheat on Construction), Great Persons (Susan B. Anthony, Michelangelo), Chichen Itza, Trades converted in Hammers, Despotism government, Friendly Workers, are not doubled as they are not considered as being part of the outskirts.
34. Squares gathered by Scouts (Armies for the English) and City-States count as being in the outskirt of the city. This said these square’s productions are doubled.
35. The Building Program is used for the next production of the City, whatever the production. Meaning that you cannot keep a Building Program on your City and build, for example, an army without using the Building Program, because you want to keep the Building Program to build a Wonder next turn. The only way to keep Building Program is by not taking any producing actions with this City, meaning you have to devote to the arts or harvest a resource.

For more rules information. See the file below. The new version is on the way.
[url]http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/98422/civilization-summary... [/url]

City-states : You choose the resource you want.

Relics : They are quite strong, especially the 3 from F&F. Still Confusius has been nerfed to only one GP (even too much nerfed I think... -> in our group we allow to draw 2 GP and choose one, 3 GP with Greece or Organized Religion, 4 GP with Greece and Organized Religion, and choose one).
7 Cities of Gold could also be nerfed to 2 investment but on different card, forbidding a +4 in CB in a single turn, or -1 on culture.
Atlantis is the best one but it asks you to stand on water and so "waiste" a research. Of course it's not a waiste as you will get a free tech after, but the lvl 2 techs are always the most important and somtimes you prefer not have Sailling and have Chivalry instead, because Chivalry is 100 times better than Raildroad.

One thing you can do if you think relics are too easy to take, is to defend them with Barabrian like village (even if it's still quite easy to take it...).
Or allow the Relics token to be looted like a hut -> For this, the Relics ability of Confusius, the Ark and Atilla, would occur during next SoT, like for 7 Cities and Atlantis.

About overpowered Civ, you should also consider Egypt. For me one of the Strongest Civ for sure (we don't play with the variant because it's broken... Draw Pyramids or Statue of Zeus at start and the wonder being impossible to obsolete = broken).

Spain and Aztecs are too strong -> We removed them. Still Aztecs can be nerfed while Spain is really hard to nerf.
Aztecs : change their starting tech... No way to start with Irrigation...
Spain : Maybe forbid them to build starred building with their ability.


For more balanced Civs and games, you should try DoC variant ^^.


 
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Have a look at a re-balance I did. It includes the civs, the governments, the social policies, the relics, and the start configurations:

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/93694/re-balanced-civs-gov...
 
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England
Chul wrote:
England: Im pretty sure the outskirt collected by the figures also Counts as the city-outskirt. However, England is still one of the weakest civs, but Navy is still nice to have.

So I guess English armies and scouts alike can have their production doubled for a Building Project? That doesn't seem too bad. It does seem really boring, however.

Dulkal wrote:

I don't think you are reading this right. It doesn't prevent them from ever learning to end their movement on water. It just specifies that their DEFAULT ability is not enough to end on water

Well, that doesn't seem clear. The way I read it, civilization starting sheets trump cards and other abilities and are intended to break the rules, so I read it as mandating that the English could never have troops stop movement on the sea. This might be an absurdist result, admittedly, but there hasn't been any clarification on the matter. If the text said "The English begin the game with the ability to cross water but not end movement in it," then that might have clarified it would be possible for the English to later learn a tech that would allow them to end movement in water.

Itchi wrote:
England :
They sucks, that's all to say ^^. The worst Civ in the game.

I would like to hear people's thoughts on how to "fix" the English, and whether they need fixing at all. Only having a production bonus in the game is really weak, and I was expecting maybe an artillery attack boost or the like (to represent longbowmen). Have people found that the English ever win?

Greece
Chul wrote:
Greece: The special only Works doing research phase (not rationalism) but if you play with the other version you will always get the tokens.. We have played a couple of games with Greek in a row where Greece had flight before any of us had a lvl 3 tech, so yea we decided to nerf them too. The free tech, and then using rationalism every sot, and then gaining enough trade to be able to tech a tech no other player has a chance to get because you are fare in front already is just too overpowered.


Itchi wrote:
Greece :

One of the strongest Civ. They can get huge start with Democracy and Rationalism. The change of ability is necessary since W&W & rationalism. Still this new ability is dependent of the number of player, but Civ is mainly played with 3 or 4 players, which is good for this ability. 3 players game is the most balanced for their ability.

So Itchi, you seem to think it's ok to have them with their original ability? Or were you saying that you play with the newly modified culture Greece-ability rules, as you might have meant with "change of ability"? I agree that they are just way too powerful. Giving them a culture bonus seems more in line with the Greek civilization as a whole, though it is odd that Alexander the Great gets no military bonuses whatsoever.

Mongols
Chul wrote:
Mongols -> go rush those pacifistic nations and gain that extra loot. Taking a tech just by attacking a scout is pretty sick. basicly fight more(but clever).
But how do you catch the scouts on time early? The risk with rushing is that with only 3 units in your stack, other civs could easily make new armies and ward off your attack. The problem is that Mongols get no bonus helping them to *win* battles in the first place. Are there any examples of PBF games with WW where Mongolians have successfully caught a scout in the early game?

Dulkal wrote:

Gaining one extra loot is deceptively powerful. It doesn't just mean that they can loot twice as much. It also allows them to gain 2-loot benefits (like stealing technology) from a normal battle.

Right, but even then, it would take forever before you actually got to use your special ability, whereas many other civs (like Egypt) start the game with their bonus, which means they get more use out of it throughout the game.

Itchi wrote:

Mongols :

Hard to handle, but with a very destructive potential. They whole point of Mongols is to play wisely. The opponent knows your ability and ain't dumb to let free loot on your way. -> It's up to you to find solution to get free loot. Go for some Culture and get Migrants, Disoriented. Research higher travel speed tech at the good moment when you will move before your opponent.

I guess for me the problem is--how would the Mongolians ever get allies in a 3 or 4 player game of Civ? No one would want to empower the one player who HAS to fight everyone in order to get bonuses, right? Culture makes sense--but then how would the Mongolians be able to both devote to the arts and win their battles relatively early in the game? And later on in the game, civs like Japan I can see would easily fend off Mongolian attacks (due to the samurai +1 attack bonus and their generally good research abilities, which heightens the chance that the Mongolians would be under-teched when they fight you).

India
Everyone seems to agree India is weak. Do you guys boost India when you play them, or no? Arabia in particular seems more powerful culturally.

Relics
Itchi wrote:
They are quite strong, especially the 3 from F&F. Still Confusius has been nerfed to only one GP (even too much nerfed I think... -> in our group we allow to draw 2 GP and choose one, 3 GP with Greece or Organized Religion, 4 GP with Greece and Organized Religion, and choose one).
7 Cities of Gold could also be nerfed to 2 investment but on different card, forbidding a +4 in CB in a single turn, or -1 on culture.
Atlantis is the best one but it asks you to stand on water and so "waiste" a research. Of course it's not a waiste as you will get a free tech after, but the lvl 2 techs are always the most important and somtimes you prefer not have Sailling and have Chivalry instead, because Chivalry is 100 times better than Raildroad.

One thing you can do if you think relics are too easy to take, is to defend them with Barabrian like village (even if it's still quite easy to take it...).
Or allow the Relics token to be looted like a hut -> For this, the Relics ability of Confusius, the Ark and Atilla, would occur during next SoT, like for 7 Cities and Atlantis.

I like the suggested nerfs to School of Confucius. Having the relics defended by barbarians seems sensible too. I did originally think you had to "keep" the token on that space for a turn before being able to use them (so basically they became huts). But that still doesn't allow much opportunity for people to fight over relics. A similarly failed FFG board game mechanic was the PvP "battle" cards in the World of Warcraft board game, which were very much "first come, first served" mechanically, without much of a possibility of fighting over the bonuses. I think removing relics also seems ok, but it does remove some of the awe from the game I guess. I remember my excitement at first seeing the Seven Cities of Gold in the Civ board game, and removing the relics would remove that "feeling" (although for game balance reasons, perhaps it's best to remove them anyway).

Other Overpowered Civs
Itchi wrote:
About overpowered Civ, you should also consider Egypt. For me one of the Strongest Civ for sure (we don't play with the variant because it's broken... Draw Pyramids or Statue of Zeus at start and the wonder being impossible to obsolete = broken).

I agree that Egypt is really strong, and I have no idea why the FAQ 2.0 suggested making Egypt immune to having their wonder obsoleted. Makes no sense to me at all.

Are they ever going to come out with a FAQ for WW I wonder--there are certainly enough balance issues to warrant it.

Re-balance mod
kungfro wrote:
Have a look at a re-balance I did. It includes the civs, the governments, the social policies, the relics, and the start configurations:

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/93694/re-balanced-civs-gov...

I like some of your changes. Here are some of my thoughts: having civs start with different resources (like iron) seems a bit arbitrary to me. I also don't like the imposed starting policies, which seem too restrictive. I am really fond of starting buildings like the Cathedral for the French, however, which seem thematic and strategic without being overly restrictive. I am particularly fond of the Mongol bonus, though it would be hard to keep track of that throughout the game (there would be a lot more mathematical calculation going on for sure, and calculating the military combat bonuses was enough math for me in WW to begin with). The most major problem with the mod seems to be civs with too many abilities to keep track of (like the Russians or the Zulu). I think it would be impractical, and potentially unbalanced, to keep them as they are in the mod. Maybe more powerful single abilities would be best. I think the Russians are fine as they are in the base game, though the Zulu definitely appear to need a boost.
 
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Mythdracon wrote:
England
Well, that doesn't seem clear. The way I read it, civilization starting sheets trump cards and other abilities and are intended to break the rules, so I read it as mandating that the English could never have troops stop movement on the sea. This might be an absurdist result, admittedly, but there hasn't been any clarification on the matter. If the text said "The English begin the game with the ability to cross water but not end movement in it," then that might have clarified it would be possible for the English to later learn a tech that would allow them to end movement in water.


It is almost exactly the same wording as the navigation tech. I think it is pretty clear that it is intended to give the same benefit.

Or would you also interpret navigation the same way: That a player who researches navigation can never learn to stop on water?
 
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A way to buff England could be by giving them Monarchy as starting tech insted of navy but let them keep the Water movement ability. It would also make sense because England / Britain as a long history of Monarchy.

I think that would actually make them quite strong.
 
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Chul wrote:
A way to buff England could be by giving them Monarchy as starting tech insted of navy but let them keep the Water movement ability. It would also make sense because England / Britain as a long history of Monarchy.

I think that would actually make them quite strong.


As nice as it sounds thematically, this might be overdoing it.

The new monarchy would basically double the city actions of England, and the resource ability counters early wonders, which alone is often a good reason for researching the tech.
I think Monarchy went from a "meh" tech to one of the best lvl2 techs; imho letting England start with it plus the flexibility from its armies would make it overpowered.
 
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New Questions: What do you guys think about ways to improve America, India and the Zulus? America's starting GP is nice, but is a temporary bonus ultimately. Do people house-rule the production conversion? I'm unsure how to fix India--arguably they are better with the Education tech now, but they still lack any real potent ability. Zulus are really disappointing--a military civ with no military bonuses beyond extra starting artillery units.

Dulkal wrote:

It is almost exactly the same wording as the navigation tech. I think it is pretty clear that it is intended to give the same benefit.

Or would you also interpret navigation the same way: That a player who researches navigation can never learn to stop on water?

Good point--but the problem is that some detriments, like the Zulu's inability to fight barbarian villages by choice, appear impossible to change. It would be much easier to go with your interpretation if the designers clarified that the detriment only lasts until the English research sailing, etc. I do acknowledge that researching sailing would be largely pointless if the detriment were permanent.

Assuming that your interpretation is correct, the English definitely begin the game as a weak Spain. Spain has Navigation (same ability to cross water), but also has faster units and extra buildings from the get-go, whereas England only starts with some measly production.

CJWF wrote:
Chul wrote:
A way to buff England could be by giving them Monarchy as starting tech insted of navy but let them keep the Water movement ability. It would also make sense because England / Britain as a long history of Monarchy.

I think that would actually make them quite strong.


As nice as it sounds thematically, this might be overdoing it.

The new monarchy would basically double the city actions of England, and the resource ability counters early wonders, which alone is often a good reason for researching the tech.
I think Monarchy went from a "meh" tech to one of the best lvl2 techs; imho letting England start with it plus the flexibility from its armies would make it overpowered.


I see both sides here. Monarchy is arguably more powerful than an Egypt start with the Hanging Gardens because it is much more flexible (Hanging Gardens is limited to making armies and units). But it wouldn't take too long to get up to Monarchy tech wise (especially if you were Japan), and allowing the English extra actions at the start doesn't seem too bad given that the Japanese get a research bonus and a free harvest from the start of the game. I think allowing the English to have Monarchy at the start would make them really powerful, but not overly so. But I hesitate to change any civ's abilities because it would harm the integrity of the game (though some obvious missteps like the relic implementation, or the Greeks, have led me to be more willing to alter civs generally). I do wonder how much playtesting FFG did with these civs.
 
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Pete Gume

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After playing Civilization (with W+W, no social policies) a lot, the balance issue of the game annoyed my gaming group (4players) more and more.
We tried different modification suggested on BGG. (Modification of cultures, biddingsystem on cultures, playing with no culture abilities)
The last two games we tried this variant and were all happy with it:

0) No civilization abilities.

1) Every player gets a pile face down and random with: 1 ancient wonder, 2 tech II cards*, 2 tech I cards.

*The techs card should come from one tech deck to prevent equal techs; "Monarchy" is forbidden/ sorted out before.

2) Each player picks: The ancient wonder OR 1 of the 2 Tech II cards OR both tech I cards.
The wonder is played like normal (Egypt), the tech II card is put on the culture tableau*, one tech I card is put in the tech tree, the other is put on the civilization tableau.

*Techs on the civilization tableau are count like abilities of the civilization and are not part of the techtree.

3) After each player made his choice he chooses a starting (additional) Technology (I).
He gets 2 starting tile at random and chooses one of them.

pro: Different Civilization abilities, every Player can choose his ability, nearly no balancing problems.

contra: No original civilization abilities

Try it!

 
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Peterico wrote:
After playing Civilization (with W+W, no social policies) a lot, the balance issue of the game annoyed my gaming group (4players) more and more.
We tried different modification suggested on BGG. (Modification of cultures, biddingsystem on cultures, playing with no culture abilities)
The last two games we tried this variant and were all happy with it:

0) No culture abilities.

1) Every player gets a pile face down and random with: 1 ancient wonder, 2 tech II cards*, 2 tech I cards.

*The techs card should come from one tech deck to prevent equal techs; "Monarchy" is forbidden/ sorted out before.

2) Each player picks: The ancient wonder OR 1 of the 2 Tech II cards OR both tech I cards.
The wonder is played like normal (Egypt), the tech II card is put on the culture tableau*, one tech I card is put in the tech tree, the other is put on the culture tableau.

*Techs on the culture tableau are count like abilities of the culture and are not part of the techtree.

3) After each player made his choice he chooses a starting (additional) Technology (I).
He gets 2 starting tile at random and chooses one of them.

pro: Different Culture abilities, every Player can choose his ability, nearly no balancing problems.

contra: No original cultureabilities

Try it!



Sounds interesting, though many players will prefer playing with the asymmetric abilities. One minor correction, I think you need to replace Culture for Civilization
 
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CJWF wrote:
Sounds interesting, though many players will prefer playing with the asymmetric abilities. One minor correction, I think you need to replace Culture for Civilization

ooooh, he is talking about the abilities of the individual civilizations?? Wow, now it makes more sense I thought he wants to take out the culture cards and replace them with tech abilities - which made me dismiss this variant immediately^^
 
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Pete Gume

Essen
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Ohh sorry, my english gets rusty.

I mean the civilization abilities on the civilization tableau are taken out

At first we also did not want to leave the civ abilities out. It takes away a little bit of the feeling of Civilization. But if you playing against a civ like Aztecs, Japan, Mongolia, Russia (we dont play with f+f) you feel like playing in slow motion compared to the stronger ones.

with the describes variant the asymmetrie comes with the individual draft of the civilization ability.
 
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