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History:

M1.1 by Lindsey: Blue (Lindsey) and Red (Rafael)

Blue (Lindsey) - NO
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - NO
Indigo (VikingJ) - NO
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - NO

M1.2 by Luds: Orange (Luds) and Violet (roffster)

Blue (Lindsey) - NO
Orange (Luds) - YES
Violet (roffster) - YES
Indigo (VikingJ) - NO
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - NO

M1.3 by roffster: Orange (Luds) and Violet (roffster)

Blue (Lindsey) - NO
Orange (Luds) - YES
Violet (roffster) - YES
Indigo (VikingJ) - NO
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - NO

M1.4 by VikingJ: Indigo (VikingJ) and Red (Rafael)

Blue (Lindsey) - NO
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - NO
Indigo (VikingJ) - YES
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - YES

M1.5 by Paul: Yellow (Paul) and Violet (Roffster)

M1 result: PASS, FAIL

M2.1 by Martin: Blue (Lindsey), Indigo (VikingJ), and Green (Martin)

Blue (Lindsey) - YES
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - NO
Indigo (VikingJ) - NO
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - YES
Red (Rafael) - NO

M2.2 by Rafael: Blue (Lindsey), Green (Martin), and Red (Rafael)

Blue (Lindsey) - YES
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - NO
Indigo (VikingJ) - NO
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - YES

M2.3 by Lindsey: Blue (Lindsey), Indigo (VikingJ), and Red (Rafael)

Blue (Lindsey) - YES
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - NO
Indigo (VikingJ) - YES
Yellow (Paul) - YES
Green (Martin) - YES
Red (Rafael) - YES

M2 result: PASS, PASS, FAIL

M3.1 by Luds: Blue (Lindsey),Orange (Luds), and Violet (roffster)

Blue (Lindsey) - YES
Orange (Luds) - YES
Violet (roffster) - NO
Indigo (VikingJ) - YES
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - NO

M3.2 by roffster: Blue (Lindsey), Violet (roffster), and Green (Martin)

Blue (Lindsey) - YES
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - YES
Indigo (VikingJ) - YES
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - NO
Red (Rafael) - NO

M3.3 by VikingJ: Blue (Lindsey), Violet (roffster), and Green (Martin)

Blue (Lindsey) - YES
Orange (Luds) - NO
Violet (roffster) - YES
Indigo (VikingJ) - YES
Yellow (Paul) - NO
Green (Martin) - YES
Red (Rafael) - NO

M3 results: PASS, PASS, PASS

--------MOD STUFF (Please ignore everything below this line)--------

On mission

Blue (Lindsey) -
Orange (Luds) -
Violet (roffster) -
Indigo (VikingJ) -
Yellow (Paul) -
Green (Martin) -
Red (Rafael) -


YES
NO

[b]VOTE! Voting links: YES/NO


Mission Cards Please! Links: PASS/FAIL

Message Requests Please! Links: MESSAGE/NO MESSAGE

Redirection orders: MIRRORWEAVER/WHISPERER
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
Seating Order

Lindsey
Luds
roffster
VikingJ
Paul
Martin
Rafael


Random Order and Roles done by random.org
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
Game Rules:

Rebel Team - The rebel team is comprised of four players:
Merlin - If he is assassinated at the end of the game, rebels lose. Knows the spies but not who is who. Once per game, can send a signed message to any player.
Knights(Plain old Rebels, or PoR)- Starts off with no information

Spy Team - The spy team is comprised of three players:
Mirron(Assassin+messages)- In charge of the assassination at the end of the game. Knows the other spies. Twice per game, can send a signed message to any player.
Mirrorweaver Knows the other spies. Also can predict recipent of Merlin's message each round; if successful, target changes to his choice of another knight.
Whisperer Knows the other spies. Also can predict 2 subject of Merlin's message each round; if one is correct, receipient changes to his choice of the same alignment as original subject.

Role GMs:

Merlin- You are Merlin. You are immune to Mirron's spell, and see the others for who they are, except you can't tell Mirron apart from his illusions. The illusions are Aaron, Aaron, Aaron. You may send a message once per game after a mission.

Knights- You are a knight. You just see 6 copies of yourself.

Mirron- You are Mirron. Your illusions are Aaron and Aaron. You are in charge of the assassination of Merlin at the end of the game. You may send a signed message twice per game, each after a mission. (You may send two messages after the same mission if you so choose.)

Mirrorweaver- You are the Mirrorweaver. One of Aaron and Aaron is your maker, Mirron, and the other is the Whisperer. After every mission, you may submit a prediction for Merlin's message target (if he sends a message after this mission), along with a knight to redirect the message to if your prediction is successful.

Whisperer- You are the Whisperer. One of Aaron and Aaron is your maker, Mirron, and the other is the Mirrorweaver. After every mission, you may submit two predictions for the subject of Merlin's message (if he sends a message after this mission), each with a player of the same alignment as an alternate subject.

Missions are 2/3/3/4*/4
*The fourth mission requires two fails.

Messaging
Merlin and Mirron can both send messages to players, and indirectly (see PBF rule #4). Use the template that I'll provide to send me a GM, and I will GM your target. They'll be of the form: Aaron is an (Illusion/Knight).

Note that all players that can't (whether due to being a non-messaging role or having used up all messages) or don't want to send messages must send me NO MESSAGE after each mission for play to continue (so that information isn't leaked because someone didn't log on in a particular interval). (If you are the Mirrorweaver or the Whisperer, a prediction will also count as confirmation.)

If you send a message to someone (again, by GMing me, not the target!), that person (the target) will recieve a GM from me before play resumes that will say:

Quote:
You see a reflection of (sender) in a mirror, and suddenly it speaks: (subject) is an (illusion/knight).


The Mirrorweaver and the Whisperer may change the recipient and subject of the message with correct prediction, but their restrictions ensure that if the original message was true, the message received will be true.

Also, their redirection effects do not change the name of the sender on the message. Therefore if you receive a message, the sender is guaranteed to be either Merlin or Mirron. Merlin does not learn if his message was redirected, nor do Mirrorweaver or the Whisperer learn whether their redirection effects were successful.

Merlin and Mirron don't have to use all or any of their messages during the game, nor does the target need to be a Knight (but in Merlin's case, targeting an illusion would be very ill-advised).

Examples of Messaging

Example 1 ("typical"):
Suppose we have the following players:

Player M(Merlin)
Player K1(Knight)
Player K2(Knight)
Player K3(Knight)
Player Mi(Mirron)
Player Mirror(Mirrorweaver)
Player W(Whisperer)

After the results of M2 are revealed, player M GMs me that he wants to tell player K2 that Mi is an illusion, and Mi GMs me that he wants to tell K3 that K1 is an illusion.

Mirror GMs me that he'd like to redirect K2 to M (he can only choose a rebel as the redirect target), and W GMs me that he would like to change subject K2 to K1 and W to Mi. Note that each change must be within the same alignment, so he cannot cause Merlin's message to become false if it was true originally.

The result: M receives a message (from himself!) that says that Mi is an illusion, and K3 receives a message from Mi that K1 is an illusion. Merlin only knows his message was redirected because he happened to receive it.

Mirror's redirection took effect, but not W's (note that Mirron is unaffected by his minion's mischief). Neither of them know whether their prediction did anything.

Note that this scenario isn't as bad as it looks for rebels; now Merlin can safely claim that he got a message that Mi is an illusion.

Example 2 ("very, very WIFOMy"):

Same players as in Example 1.

After the results of M3 are revealed, player M GMs me that he wants to tell player M (himself!) that K2 is a knight, and Mi GMs me "No message" (as do all the other players.) Perhaps Merlin was pretending to strongly suspect K2 as being an illusion, and so illusions figured that Merlin would target him to set him straight.

Mirror GMs me that he'd like to redirect M to K3, and W GMs me that he would like to change subject K2 to M and Mirror to W.

The result: K3 receives a message that says that M is a knight.

Both Mirror's and W's redirections happened, and now the spies likely think that they thwarted Merlin's plan, when in fact, they really didn't!
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
PBF Rules:

1) Official mission proposals should be in bold contain the mission number and proposal number. For example PBF 100: M1.1 Aaron/Aaron. Per standard PBF etiquette, the fifth proposal/hammer will automatically be sent.

1a) You may also, in bold, at any time, say: Message [from Aaron]: Aaron is an (illusion/knight). This will add this to the "claimed messages" section on page 1 for convenience only. Including the sender is optional (and very dangerous to do truthfully; what if you out Merlin?) You may redact this by saying REDACT Message [from Aaron]: Aaron is an (illusion/knight), but the original message will persist, but be stricken through.

2) All votes should be GM to me. Send your vote in the subject line. For example "PBF 105 m1.1 YES".

3) There is a non-strict time limit of 24 hrs on every official game action. If you are going to take much longer than that, please post in the thread in advance. Weekends are usually not included.

4) No game-related discussion is allowed outside the thread until the game is completed. This includes GMs between players and posts in other threads. (Role-related messaging is done through me!) If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to ask! No question is too n00bish!

5) Do not edit posts, except in the first minute or so to fix typos. Deleting is an extreme form of editing which is also forbidden. If you do edit, please type why you are editing.

Example: Edit - For spelling mistakes.

6) No dice have been provided to you. You may not use the Geekroller in this thread.

7) Please subscribe to the thread and check in at least daily (exceptions for weekends).

8) Submission changes rule: You can change a submitted card any number of times (eg PASS/FAIL, ACCEPT/REJECT, MESSAGE/NO MESSAGE) but as soon as I receive the card from the last player, no more changes are allowed, even if I'm not there to post the results yet. If you made changes after all the cards were in, I'll tell you which submitted card was the final one.

9) Feel free to message me anytime. It makes the game fun for me seeing what your thoughts are as you figure things out.

10) Remember everyone is here to have fun! Bullying, cursing, and other unsportsmanship like conduct is frowned upon.
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
Claimed messages:
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
Results:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Lindsey - Knight
Luds - Mirron
roffster - Knight
VikingJ - Merlin
paulhar - Whisperer
Martin - Knight
Rafael - Mirrorweaver
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
This game is an Avalon variant, with private messages (done through me, the mod). Signup is closed; I'll post to the Waiting List if a replacement is needed.
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
Prologue:

King Arthur and his loyal subjects were reclining one evening around the Round Table, telling tales of their cunning defeat of Mordred and his deceitful minions. Sir Gawain was particularly proud of his deduction of Mordred's spies, drawing the assassination toward him. (Merlin, of course, was able to stop the assassination.) The knights (and Mordred's spies) thought his exclaimation "GG spies, resign and kill me now! WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM!" rather arcane, and some wondered if he was reciting some sort of arcane magical spell that hypotized the spies into the failed assassination attempt. Was Sir Gawain taking magic? What does "WIFOM" stand for anyway?

Unfortunately, the evening festivities were marred by yet another seemingly insane messenger from a nearby village that was claiming that everyone in his village looks exactly like him. This was the third such messenger in the last week, and each heralded from different villages. This one was from a village near Darkling woods, the closest village to Camelot yet. The last two had been dismissed as lunatics, but this time Merlin heard it, and knew that it wasn't mere insanity. This has to be the work of Mirron, the evil mirror mage.

Mirron's lair is hidden deep in the mountains of Isgard. Mirron studied magic long ago with Merlin (and was named Robert then), but while Merlin and Mirron were initially close, Mirron was absorbed into the study of mirrors in his intense narcissism, to the detriment of his relationships and other studies. Eventually, he was driven insane with vanity and could only stand to see himself, himself, and himself.

So according to rumors, Mirron built a lair hidden in the mountains of Isgard. The rumors all agree that his lair is comprised entirely of mirrors. A few survivors of adventuring parties that claim to have approached the lair have reported that he has even created illusionary copies of himself, and even bestowed special powers upon them. However, these few travelers were visibly insane and have yet to recover from whatever happened to them, and it's not clear if anything they say is reliable.

Merlin suspects that Mirron's madness has reached a tipping point, and that he plans on expanding his empire. Furthermore, mirror magic hasn't been studied for a long time, and Merlin is one of the few remaining with any knowledge of mirror magic, and thus the only wizard with any hope of being able to fight it. Therefore, King Arthur agrees to send Merlin and 3 of his best knights to seek out Mirron's lair and to end the threat.

As the party of 4 approach the mountains, they see a house that looks like Mirron may have had a say in how it was built...

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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze
Reserved.
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Only Merlin and Minion can send messages to any player they choose that signs up?
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Indeed - only Merlin and Mirron (the evil mirror mage) can send messages to any player under the current scheme.

The main game balance issue that I had to go through was how to make sure that rebels can't just break the game with coordinated signals. Perhaps there's a way to allow private messaging for rebels in Avalon, but that would require more thought.

Now others can certainly fakeclaim they have messages, and sometimes even rebels might want to do so if they have a strong read in order to deceive spies as to who Merlin is. They might also want to conceal their messages too in certain cases.
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Maybe they send the messages to you first and you send it to the others? Would that help?
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
I assumed that this was the case before - sorry! Yeah, people don't actually GM each other; they GM me and then GM their target.

Note that PBF rule #4) No game-related discussion is allowed outside the thread until the game is completed. This includes GMs between players and posts in other threads. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to ask! No question is too n00bish!

is still intact in this game.

So everyone would send to me, and then I'd send to the target. If Merlin could GM people directly, this would be a really broken game! I'm just wary that giving everyone messages could give rise to coordination strategies (or maybe not.) I'll clarify this in bold on the rules thread - thanks Natalie!
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
This is an interesting idea. I'll take a shot at it.

I'm in.
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Sounds fun. I'l give this a shot. mb
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
I've just completed Mission 1 of my first BGG resistance game, but would like to give this interesting variation a try if you will have me. I'll take Yellow.
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
paulhar wrote:
I'll take Yellow.


Damn you to hell traitor!
 
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Martin Hall
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
I will try something new, though I generally dislike Merlin games.

What is the scope of Merlin's one permitted message? Is there a limit (word count, content, etc)?

Obviously Mirron would have the same constraints.

My concern is that the message is potentially game breaking.

Let's say Merlin discloses the 3 spies to person X. X can now disclose this to the group and propose they all be excluded. If the group agrees then rebels win.

Conversely let us say that Mirron discloses 3 people to Person Y instead. He has to make sure that his "spy group" includes Merlin, because otherwise non-tagged Merlin can message Y and Y knows for sure that it is true Merlin message (because if initial message was from Merlin, then non-tagged person cannot be Mirron).
Now, if the a mission is sent without any of the tagged group and fails, then Y knows it was a message from Mirron and can safely disclose this to the group.

So Mirron's message is essentially 1-shot (until proven false), whereas Merlin's can persist (because true).

I think that imbalance makes this variant highly rebel-friendly.
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Luds wrote:
paulhar wrote:
I'll take Yellow.


Damn you to hell traitor!


I'm assuming you want yellow. I'm not married to yellow, I'll pick another color if you like.
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Martin: The messages of both Mirron and Merlin are constrained to be the following format:

Quote:
You see a reflection of (sender) in a mirror, and suddenly it speaks: (target) is an (illusion/knight).


(sender) and (target) are player names, and (illusion/knight) is either illusion or knight. All the other words are fixed.

I don't think that Merlin can break the game with just this message, and I've thought about this quite a bit.

(If you don't have Mirron in the game, Merlin can reveal the identity of at least 3, and often 4, people, with a single message of the above format with rebel coordination! See if you can devise such a scheme.)

Also, Luds and Paul both want yellow. Luds, did you add the yellow pawn on the edit? Would you like to play rock-paper-scissors for it?

Welcome in, everyone!
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Luds has yellow. I'll take whatever is left and hope I can tell the difference between blue, violet, and purple. (maybe one of the last two should be brown instead?)
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
When the person sees the image of the sender, it is the actual sender and not someone who the sender wishes to place in that field, right?

Also, I was thinking that the evil genius had an option to message his teammate as to which would fail the mission if both of them went. Clearly that is not the case now, it appears that the only thing the evil genius can do is try to fool a rebel. Since it's not obvious to me what the best time to do that is, it seems like it could be a good variation, at least until somebody figures it out.
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Indeed, it is the actual sender. I thought of letting Mirron fake-claim that the message was from someone else but decided not to. Maybe that could be a slightly more pro-spy variant of this game.

And Mirron sending a message or even two to his own illusions(spies) can be a good thing for coordinating their web of deceit. Remember, spies don't want to let anyone who says that a mirror told him something be a confirmed rebel, after all!
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
Luds wrote:
paulhar wrote:
I'll take Yellow.


Damn you to hell traitor!


Damn is a word reserved for Yankees laugh

(for those that are confused, look at Luds's profile)
 
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Re: PBF #164: The Mirror Maze (7p Avalon with messaging variant)
absnook wrote:
Indeed, it is the actual sender. I thought of letting Mirron fake-claim that the message was from someone else but decided not to. Maybe that could be a slightly more pro-spy variant of this game.

And Mirron sending a message or even two to his own illusions(spies) can be a good thing for coordinating their web of deceit. Remember, spies don't want to let anyone who says that a mirror told him something be a confirmed rebel, after all!
Spies don't need to get a message to claim that they got one. (Technically, I suppose the good guys could lie about this also, but not sure why they would).
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