GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
9,522 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
16 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
8 
 Thumb up
 Hide
77 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Lap Dancing article rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
badge
Love the world.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have no moral objections to any type of consensual sex. But sex work has a host of problems associated with it, from objectification to violence to outright slavery. That's why I'm personally put off by the idea of a game about managing sex workers.

This article might shed more light on that concern:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/19/gender.uk

Here are a couple of key passages:

Quote:
Yet academic research has linked lap-dancing to trafficking, prostitution and an increase in male sexual violence against both the women who work in the clubs and those who live and work in their vicinity. A recent conference in Ireland highlighted the use of lap-dance clubs by human traffickers as a tool for grooming women into prostitution; the clubs also normalise the idea of paying for sexual services. And a report by the Lilith Project, run by the charity Eaves Housing, which looked at lap-dancing in Camden Town, north London, found that in the three years before and after the opening of four large lap-dancing clubs in the area, incidents of rape in Camden rose by 50%, while sexual assault rose by 57%.


Quote:
"The clubs maintain a veneer of no touching, but touching is more standard than not," she continues. "If I had a boyfriend now and he said he was going to a lap-dancing club, I would consider it to be infidelity. The fact is that if you break the rules, you make more money. If one dancer starts breaking the rules then the pressure is on others to do the same. Otherwise a bloke would think, Well, that dancer charged me £20 and stayed three feet away, but that one charged me just the same and she put her breasts in my mouth and sat on my crotch. Once you've been there a while, you learn that certain things are profitable, and no contact is the first rule you learn to break. Eventually you start to wonder, what is the difference between me and a prostitute?"


To me, it's offensive to make a game about sex work, because it trivializes an often oppressive industry that seriously harms some people.

And, before the shitstorm descends, I might as well get these things out of the way.

1. Yes I own and have played war games. There's an interesting discussion to be had about whether that makes me a hypocrite. But accusing me of being a hypocrite is not an argument against the concerns I noted above. It's just an ad hominem distraction.

2. Yes there are other industries that have terrible real world social problems (though the idea that similarly serious problems are the rule is disingenuous). Guess what, I wouldn't want to play a game about sweat shops either and would be mystified if a mainstream euro publisher decide to release a light hearted cartoony treatment of them.

3. I'm not a prude. Concern about sexual exploitation and objectification is not the same thing as moral disapproval of sex as sex.

4. I'm sure there are lots of people who have great fully-volitional experiences as sex workers. But I'm equally sure that the opposite is true for a large number of people and is cause for serious concern.

5. I'm not promoting censorship or even a boycott. I'm just explaining why I personally have a problem with the theme of the game. Artipia must have known that the choice would be controversial. Guess what, it is.

6. I don't need to wait to see the rule book to object to the theme.

7. I don't care if controversy about the game is promoting awareness of it. Good. More discussion is a good thing.

Last thing: I wanted to clearly explain one person's sex-positive reasons for concern, so people might understand where some of the reaction is coming from rather than assuming it's all about prudishness. I'm not really interested in participating in a flame war and will happily ignore people who call me names or erect strawmen (strawpeople?).

Cheers.
29 
 Thumb up
3.56
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Davey Boy
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the "anti-pc" brigade are too busy wrapped up in their own vitriol to say anything other than "shut up you whiny liberal, I want a game about BEWBS!" but I think this sums up everything I feel. Kudos, man.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Drake
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
How do you explain the decrease in violent sexual crime at the same time pornographic/violent media has become more common/acceptable/accessible in the USA (since 2001 to 2010, violent sexual crimes have decreased 49%... and if you go back to the early 90s, the decrease is much greater)?

The fact is, people don't walk through a forest, pick up a playboy, and become a rapist. Those that try to link a certain type of media to criminal activity are often ignoring a whole host of economic, political, and social factors.

Sorry, but almost every type of media has been damned for causing the downfall of civilization. We are talking about comic books, radio programs, rock/rap music, and even chess. The whole idea that this game would somehow have some societal impact is silly, nonsensical, and representative of someone trying to regurgitate their prejudices under the guise of scientific inquiry.

The greater threat to civilization has always been those that try to codified their prejudices by persecuting those that they disagree with.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael
United States
Boulder
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for your respectful and and researched post.

Well said, and thank you for stating "accusing me of being a hypocrite is not an argument against the concerns I noted above. It's just an ad hominem distraction."

In issues of Sexism (and Racism), the problem lurks not necessarily in an individual action or perception, but in the frequency of occurrence of that action or perception.

I find it important to consider that Sexism is not simply a sexist act, or word, but, by my definition, Sexism is a systemic form of Bias which favors Men and punishes women. I say it is systemic because while individual actions can be judged as bigotry, or sexist, they can also be judged on circumstantial factors which justify the action is some way. Because a single action can be justified from a number of reasonable perspectives, it is easy to conclude that a given event, or game, was not the product of sexism, or was not sexist. Indeed no event relies upon a single causal factor. Every event that occurs is dependent upon the entire history of the universe. Given that a variety of perspective hold forms of validity, how do we discern truth? Single events can guide what wrongs we observe but we must look at systemic patterns to see how truth is arrived upon and then question and observe how the truth of that story arose. When we look at patterns on a broader scale, we can see who has benefited, and who has suffered. Women have suffered. Women's rights have been compromised. Women have been objectified. In this game the objectification could hardly be more overt. The very goods that are dealt with in this game are Money and Women. This game reduces women to a commodity to be bought and sold.

You may choose to buy this game, but what values are you supporting if you do so? And yourself why you find the idea of "profiting from selling women to men" entertaining?

5 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
badge
Love the world.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BaBang wrote:
The whole idea that this game would somehow have some societal impact is silly, nonsensical, and representative of someone trying to regurgitate their prejudices under the guise of scientific inquiry.


It's a good thing I didn't say that then.

The notion that I'm "persecuting" anyone is also unsupported.

Also, not trying to codify anything.

(Didn't I say I wasn't going to respond to strawmen? Ok, starting now!)
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael
United States
Boulder
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BaBang wrote:
The whole idea that this game would somehow have some societal impact is silly, nonsensical, and representative of someone trying to regurgitate their prejudices under the guise of scientific inquiry.


I would say that this game is more an effect of Sexist Societal Bias than this game is causing people to cultivate a sexist view. That being said, the incredible volume of representations which objectify and diminish women I would say does have a societal impact. Do you believe that sexism has no societal impact? I would suggest perhaps watching a documentary like "Miss Representation."

BaBang wrote:
The greater threat to civilization has always been those that try to codified their prejudices by persecuting those that they disagree with.


You seem to be arguing that calling something prejudiced is prejudiced. You could argue in the same way as you have, that Slaveholders were being persecuted by abolitionists.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken B.
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
erect strawmen



That's a whole 'nother game entirely. Look for it next sprung. Er, spring.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
↓ first, last name ↓
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hobbes wrote:
1. Yes I own and have played war games. There's an interesting discussion to be had about whether that makes me a hypocrite.

No, there isn't. The simple fact is that this does not make you a hypocrite. This is not, and has never been, an example of what the word "hypocrite" means. It's possible that there's an interesting discussion about why so many people fail to understand the meaning of the word.

Quote:
But accusing me of being a hypocrite is not an argument against the concerns I noted above. It's just an ad hominem distraction.

And also a distortion of language.

"I object to X, but not Y." - not hypocrisy

"I object to X, but not a lighthearted game about X." - not hypocrisy

"I don't object to Y, but I do object to a lighthearted game about Y." - a bit odd perhaps, but not hypocrisy

"In real life, I think X is worse than Y. But as a theme for boardgames, X is not worse than Y." - not hypocrisy

"Many people think X is worse than Y, but I think Y is worse than X." - not hypocrisy

"I object to both X and Y in real life. I object to X as a board game theme, but I don't object to Y as a board game theme." - not hypocrisy
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Romero
Spain
Tarragona
Tarragona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The topic creator made no mention of sexism whatsoever. As a matter of fact I think most people agree that this game is in fact not sexist because it depicts both men and women in the same situations, which is against the very definition of sexism.
The topic creator simply said he wasn't comfortable with the topic, which is perfectly ok. I, for example, would feel uncomfortable while playing a game about bullfighting, and yet it is true that I have no problem playing games about war and stuff. Some people are more sensible to certain topics than others. That's just the way things are. As long as there's no bad feelings between those who share his feelings and those who don't I don't see any problem.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kossoff wrote:
I think the "anti-pc" brigade are too busy wrapped up in their own vitriol to say anything other than "shut up you whiny liberal, I want a game about BEWBS!" but I think this sums up everything I feel. Kudos, man.


Has nothing to do with being anti-pc or not. I'm not anti-pc and I've found the vitriol from does against this game in the other threads has been unwarranted. This OP on the otherhand has very politely stated his view point and explained his stance without villifying the other side.

I applaud that.

I'll admit I didn't read the link you posted but I've also read and seen research indicating that for the most part the sex industry does have a lot of good and can be empowering to both women and men.

That being said that doesn't mean that every game about the industry is good either. So far I feel that the publisher is making an attempt at equality and keeping it light.

Once the components are revealed and the gameplay, we'll know if they actually did provide an environment that's welcoming or if the attempt is shallow and simply going for shock value.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mkaup366 wrote:

You may choose to buy this game, but what values are you supporting if you do so? And yourself why you find the idea of "profiting from selling women to men" entertaining?



I'm not even sure if I will buy this game or not, that will depend on the mechanics and content. that being said the game has nothing about selling women to men. It's about managing a strip club which caters to both men and women as well as the homosexual and heterosexual crowd (from the publisher themselves.

I have no problem with men or women dancing naked or providing various services including prostitution as long as everyone involved is doing so of their own free will.

Questioning someone about their values as well based on the game they play is logical fallacy. It's equivalent to me asking if by playing Puerto Rico do you support slavery. Or if someone plays Nazis in a wargame do they support that ideal. It's ridiculous.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MGS
United States
Weston
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
KeyForge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"To me, it's offensive to make a game about sex work, because it trivializes an often oppressive industry that seriously harms some people."

This is the part of your post that really matters and it summarizes your feelings very nicely.

Let's first situate that article, it is published in the general media with a clear objective and therefore cannot be taken as scientific evidence of anything. The numbers are not put in any sort of perspective and are difficult to interpret. What happened in the years leading to the opening of the clubs? Is the baseline number an increase compared to the years prior to that or was it improving? How about the city as a whole? Was the increase specific to that area? How big of a population are we talking about, that number is alarming either way but the baseline number was alarming too. It is mandatory to know the real impact of the opening of those clubs, much like in medicine we use the number need to treat rather than percent increase/decrease to assess the impact of an intervention.

I can see how somebody could find the theme objectionable and I respect that. I object to a few themes myself and this is why I don't see myself ever buying Cash'n'Guns which glamorizes other sort of criminal activity. On the other hand, I have no problem with playing Sheriff of Nottingham even on its original and more criminal version.

I would hate to see a crusade against this game. There are other games that have objectionable themes and we don't make a crusade against them and I think it is fair to expect the same treatment here.

My point being, let's not take that article for more than it is really worth. A general media article that had its own agenda.

Let's respect your right to object to the theme.

Let's respect my right to object to other themes.

Let's continue to be discerning and knowing to separate what a game really represents. Playing the Germans in Memoir '44 doesn't make me a Nazi, playing a Warhammer god in Chaos in the Old World doesn't make me a a rapist or playing Cash'n'Guns doesn't make me a hit man. Playing Lap Dance does not mean I condone violence or any other disrespect towards women (or men).



10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Firstly, putting men on the cover does not excuse objectifying women.

Secondly, any time this kind of controversy arises about a board game, whether it's sexism or classism or racism, there's always plenty of people rushing to the defense of it. This is simply put, because tabletop games continue to be mainly a hobby populated by middle/upper class white males, who are incapable of understanding what it means to be oppressed.
6 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Brimer
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Men don't have to objectify women. They do a good enough job at it without us getting involved.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
↓ first, last name ↓
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Qualizium wrote:
This is simply put, because tabletop games continue to be mainly a hobby populated by middle/upper class white males, who are incapable of understanding what it means to be oppressed.

That's an incredibly bigoted statement, and has no basis in fact.
11 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Drake
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Qualizium wrote:
This is simply put, because tabletop games continue to be mainly a hobby populated by middle/upper class white males, who are incapable of understanding what it means to be oppressed.

That's an incredibly bigoted statement, and has no basis in fact.


It is a convenient way to ignore criticism. If someone doesn't agree with you... simply say their class/race makes them ineligible to understand your self-righteous view.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You know what's a really convenient way of ignoring criticism? Walking around banging a huge drum while telling everyone that you're not offended about something to which you have no frame of reference, and you don't know why anyone else is, and everyone needs to lighten up about the systematic objectification and oppression of half the human population, musing about how an industry that abducts underage girls from third world countries to force into sexual slavery is actually empowering women.

Please, before you make it a point to try to tell anyone what is and what isn't repugnant (hint: the theme of this game is repugnant) check your privilege.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Drake
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Qualizium wrote:
...the systematic objectification and oppression of half the human population, musing about how an industry that abducts underage girls from third world countries to force into sexual slavery is actually empowering women.


I can't imagine anyone here defending sex slavery.

Qualizium wrote:

Please, before you make it a point to try to tell anyone what is and what isn't repugnant (hint: the theme of this game is repugnant)...


No one here is saying the theme isn't offensive/repugnant to some people. Instead, people are challenging the rationality of such feelings. For instance, many humans (past and present) are offended by women voting, homosexuality, and freedom of religion... but that doesn't mean that view is unimpeachable.

Qualizium wrote:

...check your privilege.


Really now? Really...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
↓ first, last name ↓
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Qualizium wrote:
Please, before you make it a point to try to tell anyone what is and what isn't repugnant (hint: the theme of this game is repugnant) check your privilege.

And before you actually post something repugnant (hint: your previous post was repugnant) check your bigotry.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Blair Fraser
Canada
London
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hobbes wrote:

1. Yes I own and have played war games. There's an interesting discussion to be had about whether that makes me a hypocrite. But accusing me of being a hypocrite is not an argument against the concerns I noted above. It's just an ad hominem distraction.


I haven't been arguing against that concern, my main issue is with the possible hypocrisy or double standard. But I admit I may not fully understand the situation. Consider the following phrases (I borrowed your wording).

"To me, it's offensive to make a game about war, because it trivializes an often oppressive industry that seriously harms some people."

"Yes there are other industries that have terrible real world social problems (though the idea that similarly serious problems are the rule is disingenuous). Guess what, I wouldn't want to play a game about war and would be mystified if a mainstream euro publisher decide to release a light hearted cartoony treatment of it."

(Feel free to replace war with a violent theme of your choice).

Maybe I'm missing something but in my mind most of the major violence themes should be even more problematic but we don't see it happening here on BGG. Why? This is not a jab at the OP, I am really trying to understand it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
badge
Love the world.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bfraser wrote:
Hobbes wrote:

1. Yes I own and have played war games. There's an interesting discussion to be had about whether that makes me a hypocrite. But accusing me of being a hypocrite is not an argument against the concerns I noted above. It's just an ad hominem distraction.


I haven't been arguing against that concern, my main issue is with the possible hypocrisy or double standard. But I admit I may not fully understand the situation. Consider the following phrases (I borrowed your wording).

"To me, it's offensive to make a game about war, because it trivializes an often oppressive industry that seriously harms some people."

"Yes there are other industries that have terrible real world social problems (though the idea that similarly serious problems are the rule is disingenuous). Guess what, I wouldn't want to play a game about war and would be mystified if a mainstream euro publisher decide to release a light hearted cartoony treatment of it."

(Feel free to replace war with a violent theme of your choice).

Maybe I'm missing something but in my mind most of the major violence themes should be even more problematic but we don't see it happening here on BGG. Why? This is not a jab at the OP, I am really trying to understand it.


In fact, I wouldn't want to play a game that presents a light-hearted cartoonish treatment of war. I've never played Nuclear War or Manhattan Project for that very reason.

In my experience, most wargames don't trivialize war.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bfraser wrote:
Hobbes wrote:

1. Yes I own and have played war games. There's an interesting discussion to be had about whether that makes me a hypocrite. But accusing me of being a hypocrite is not an argument against the concerns I noted above. It's just an ad hominem distraction.


I haven't been arguing against that concern, my main issue is with the possible hypocrisy or double standard. But I admit I may not fully understand the situation. Consider the following phrases (I borrowed your wording).

"To me, it's offensive to make a game about war, because it trivializes an often oppressive industry that seriously harms some people."

"Yes there are other industries that have terrible real world social problems (though the idea that similarly serious problems are the rule is disingenuous). Guess what, I wouldn't want to play a game about war and would be mystified if a mainstream euro publisher decide to release a light hearted cartoony treatment of it."

(Feel free to replace war with a violent theme of your choice).

Maybe I'm missing something but in my mind most of the major violence themes should be even more problematic but we don't see it happening here on BGG. Why? This is not a jab at the OP, I am really trying to understand it.
Most wargames have a deep respect for the people involved in the wars they set out to represent. They respect the history. They allow us to understand that time and place better.

Lap Dance does none of those things, and in fact trivializes its theme.

This is, coincidentally, exactly the issue most people have with how slavery is handled in the new release Five Tribes.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antonio Ferrari
Italy
Bagnolo Cremasco
Cremona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
... and what about Tanto Cuore?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
josh willhite
United States
La Junta
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After Bible study we have a meal and then play some board games, a lot of the group consists of my daughters and their female cousins. I don't think this game is a good fit for the group.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Snowball
Belgium
n/a
flag msg tools
badge
Gender: pot*ato. My opinion is an opinion.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hobbes wrote:

3. I'm not a prude. Concern about sexual exploitation and objectification is not the same thing as moral disapproval of sex as sex.


I don't approve of prostitution. Concern about a game is not the same as concern about sex exploitation.

The problem is not here that you voice your concern which is fair (even though *I* find it ridiculous but understand the pointlessness of discussing it with you), the problem is that there are too many threads about that.

As for the game itself, you are only doing it a great service since it is now the topmost game in the "hotness".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.