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Subject: Using dice for Credits, Counters, etc. rss

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J. Chris Miller
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Poll
Is using dice for Credits, counters (such as virus counters, etc.) a viable method for keeping track of such items?
Yes
No
      259 answers
Poll created by coyotemoon722


I've started using dice for most things in Netrunner. I use a D20 countdown spinner for credits, and small D6s for various counters. I have a lot of different types, so I use red ones for virus counters, and I'll use other spindown D20s for things like Eve Campaign and Armitage Codebusting.

Is this acceptable to most players? I also feel like if you just tell your opponent what's going on, it's not a big deal. Thoughts?
 
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Ian Toltz
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Meh.

I find it annoying and inconvenient, personally. I wouldn't really care how my opponent tracks things, though, as long as it was clear and unambiguous.
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David Boeren
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I wouldn't do it, but I don't have a problem with someone else doing so as long as it was clear what was what.
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The Tak
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I don't, but I don't have a problem with it. For cards with a set increment I have started to use power tokens or advancements, one for each 'hit'. So for Kati I just put an advancement on the card each use, and when I pull it off I take X by 3 for credits when I go to collect, for example.

If I had an opponent that had a problem with it I would switch it back to credits, but this is all casual play for me (sadly!) so it's usually not an issue.
 
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Travis Merkle
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I like d6s for virus tokens (red) and power tokens (blue). I also use dice for tags if I go tag me.

I do not like dice that much for credits, but I will take a nice arranged line of dice over a messy pile of credits on an ID or at the table edge. I like the credits out front, where they are visible to everyone.
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Hao Ming Lim
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NavyLock wrote:
That being said, we've all agreed that we will only use d6s. d20's are too mobile and easy to knock over.


I use to have that D20 knocking over problem.

I now bring a small lump of Blu Tack to stick the D20 in place.

Cheers
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Chris Wood
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I use a combination. I always use tokens for credits, and attempt to keep them in neat stacks. But rather than pile 12 credits on an armitage code busting for example, I'll put a D6 on it, and "click it down" as i take credits from my token pile.

But as others have said, as long as you are keeping your tools for tracking the game state clear I have no problem with your method.
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Daniel D
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I've played against a couple people that use dice, never personally liked the idea. It's usually not an issue but there have been a few times (only with things like d20s though) where they'll tick it to the wrong value and I'll have to ask what they were at before they did something. Usually it's something blatantly wrong like ticking to 18 rather than 8 so it's easy to catch and fix. It may sound silly but it also takes me out of the game a little bit, for whatever reason using tokens keeps more of the cyberpunk magic in it.

Though I much prefer people who use dice to people who have some sort of aversion to both the 5-credit piece and stacking their credits in a meaningful manner. I'm sure you feel like Scrooge McDuck every time you dive into the pile of credits, but I sure as hell can't read it.
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Yoshi
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I stopped using counters for dice. Counters are a lot messier, D6 are easy to read and easy to work with. For credits I line the dice up in the corner neatly and don't go over 5, I par them 2 fives together and then start on the next "set" of credits. In this way it is very easy for everyone to, at a glance, see how many credz I have. Virus, power etc, simple with dice too. I really don't see a problem with using them, and saying that they give rise to mistakes is not true, I think players should state what they do no matter if they use dice or counters, e.g. "I take 3 from Adonis so I go from 9 to 12".

One thing I notice is that people (at least where I play) that use counters are very bad at keeping them in a way that it is easy to see how much they have. In many cases they just create a heap, this is far worse than someone using dice, even if the dice are set to 4, 3, 5, 3, 3, at least in this case you can add the dice up (not that I've seen people do this. I guess dice people tend to be more OCD and therefore it is easier to see the board state when they play
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Liz Malette
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I switched to dice a few month ago and I like it. I use regular size dice for credits, hosting them on my ID for my credit pool. Then I have some smaller white and blue dice I use for tokens. This way my dice are distinct from one another and I don't have to carry around 6 times the amount in tokens.

I do keep a small stash of tokens with me. When I take a tag or a bad pub I place one token and host a die (or sometimes dice) beside it to show how many. I was playing a tag me deck that regularly got up to like 17 tags for a while and found this to be much easier to keep track with.

I always count my dice up to 6 before adding another die so I will never have more than one other value die. Occasionally I won't follow it for the moment it makes my turn easier (transferring Kati for instance I may end up with a 3 value and a 4 or something at the same time if I used money dice on her) but I always change then to be as many 6s as possible when my turn ends and it won't slow down the game.
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Zak Jarvis
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Y00shi wrote:
Counters are a lot messier, D6 are easy to read and easy to work with.


This may well be true for the player whose dice they are. Dice are most often harder to read from the angle (physically!) of the opponent sitting at the other side of the table. In that sense, it always strikes me as a little selfish in that by using dice you're making things easier for yourself at the expense of your opponent.
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Yoshi
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popeye09 wrote:
Y00shi wrote:
Counters are a lot messier, D6 are easy to read and easy to work with.


This may well be true for the player whose dice they are. Dice are most often harder to read from the angle (physically!) of the opponent sitting at the other side of the table. In that sense, it always strikes me as a little selfish in that by using dice you're making things easier for yourself at the expense of your opponent.


I put my dice in a corner away from me, so it is almost the same distance for the opponent as for me. Even with players placing their dice right in front of them I think it is easy to see the values. I use regular dice with pips, numbers can be more problematic especially numbers with artsy type. In any case, it is easier to read for the opponent than counters 9/10 times, the 10th time it is equal.

If one is sitting so that it is har to read the dice it is even worse with counters in piles or heaps or whatever.
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Neil G
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popeye09 wrote:
Y00shi wrote:
Counters are a lot messier, D6 are easy to read and easy to work with.


This may well be true for the player whose dice they are. Dice are most often harder to read from the angle (physically!) of the opponent sitting at the other side of the table. In that sense, it always strikes me as a little selfish in that by using dice you're making things easier for yourself at the expense of your opponent.


Yeah this is what bugs me about people using dice, it might be easier for them to see how many credits they have, although as long as you organise tokens in a sensible way there's no reason this has to be true, but it's certainly harder for the opponent to read dice from across the table.

I do carry a couple of d20s in my token box for times when the number of datasuckers gets out of hand or I get midseasoned to hell but they only ever go on cards or tag tokens placed near the middle of the table so it's as clear as possible for my opponent, and it's usually only a bookkeeping formality since it tends to happen when the number is effectively 'so big it doesn't matter'

Edit: response to new post above -

Y00shi wrote:
In any case, it is easier to read for the opponent than counters 9/10 times, the 10th time it is equal.


I'm sorry but that's simply not true. If your counters are arranged in a sensible fashion they are much easier to count - the counters are ~10mm across, whereas the pips on dice are what, 1-2mm? How can it possibly be easier to count pips than counters?
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Dave Kudzma
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I use the Broken Egg tokens. I keep them organized by denomination and on an area of my mat that will make the number stand out. In this way even an opponent that I had at regionals, who didn't like those tokens as he was color blind and couldn't see some of the numbers at times, complimented me as he could always tell how many credits I have.

The number of credits, and the number of cards you have in hand, should always be evident; and I think without your opponent needing to ask you. It's not only good sportsmanship but adds to the game for certain cards that require that information but work better if you don't slightly "telegraph" by asking for information.
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Kim Choy
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I'm considering switching to dice (I just use the cardboard counters at the moment). I have used dice for other card games, it's never really an issue for me or my opponents.


On a side note, do BGG polls always have this problem (101%, votes off by 1)?
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Rayne Smith
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Yes, it's a viable method, but I personally don't use dice. I don't care if my opponent does though.
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Grish Noren
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I'm always confused by how many people seem to hate dice.

I love them. I've been a staunch supporter of them for a long time. But I don't ever meet the 50% hatred of dice out in the field like these poles seem to reflect. BGG must attract the really OCD people, that or those trying to sell tokens are flooding the poll.

The poll doesn't make sense. Dice are perfectly viable. That's not even a legitimate question. And FFG has weighed in (via silence) saying that they don't care how you track your state as long as its readable.

So, I'm confused. I used dice right in front of Lukas and didn't hear a complaint. I think AT MINIMUM they're viable.

My games also tend to go a lot faster (when I'm not playing a slow deck) than people playing comparable games while using tokens. And I'm pretty sure it's because dice are just easier to handle and manipulate.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Android: Netrunner is the only competetive *CG I've played that allowed the use of dice. They are too easy to cheat with, too easy to accidentally knock over, and adding in the fact that the game already comes with a variety of tokens, a complete waste of effort.
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Yoshi
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Vapo wrote:


Y00shi wrote:
In any case, it is easier to read for the opponent than counters 9/10 times, the 10th time it is equal.


I'm sorry but that's simply not true. If your counters are arranged in a sensible fashion they are much easier to count - the counters are ~10mm across, whereas the pips on dice are what, 1-2mm? How can it possibly be easier to count pips than counters?


Counters may be 10mm across, but the thickness is not. A stack of counters is harder to count, is it 4 or 5....or maybe 6?

How far apart are you sitting? I have no problem seeing if a die has 1, 2 5 or 6 pips from across the table.

Basically it all comes down to how players organize their counters/dice. If counters/dice are neatly placed in rows they are both about equally easy to count. If not, dice tend to be easier to read, and imo easier to work with.

However, if I could get my hands on a couple of sets of Team Covenant's credit tokens (without paying a ridiculous amount in shipping) I'd probably use them, the 1, 2, 3 and 5 denominations make them good to work with and they're pretty
 
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My big complaint with dice use is the players that use tons of D6's all over the place of random colors for everything. At some point you are obfuscating the board state information that should be clearly evident to your opponent by the design of the game. Last year at worlds I had a hard time adjusting to all the different ways players were using dice. The games played with tokens that at least mirrored the original tokens were the ones I didn't completely misjudge the game state. Not being able to visually recognize how many credits your opponent has clearly and quickly is a big handicap in a game of careful calculation. It only gets worse as the variety of dice increases. If I ever play someone with a D10 that is label (10, 20, 30, 40, etc) being used to represent 10's of credits with two D6's for 1-9 credits again...

Especially since if everything is just random dice... some virus counters could just accidentally become some credits. Personally I use the Team Covenant tokens which are clearly identifiable as separate tokens.
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Wesley Kinslow
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I use dice for counters only (advancement, virus, etc) - dice as credits is a terrible idea in my opinion.
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Captain Frisk
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This question is poorly worded, I don't care for it when my opponents use dice, but its certainly a viable method. I don't understand how you could truthfully answer "no" to this question. People have done it without exploding, it must be viable.

The only time that i use dice is when token counts get out of control (e.g. someone lands a midseason for 15)

My ranking (in order of preference)

Tokens - cleanly arranged

-- big gap

Dice - opaque d6 only, and minimal haphazard splashing (6 dice with 2,3,3,3,5,6 representing 22 credits)

-- gap again

Tokens - splashed in a giant pile
Dice - d10 to represent credits
Broken egg credit sticks
Dice - mixed sizes, maybe with some d20s. Translucent d4s

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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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gumOnShoe wrote:
I'm always confused by how many people seem to hate dice.

I love them. I've been a staunch supporter of them for a long time. But I don't ever meet the 50% hatred of dice out in the field like these poles seem to reflect. BGG must attract the really OCD people, that or those trying to sell tokens are flooding the poll.

The poll doesn't make sense. Dice are perfectly viable. That's not even a legitimate question. And FFG has weighed in (via silence) saying that they don't care how you track your state as long as its readable.

So, I'm confused. I used dice right in front of Lukas and didn't hear a complaint. I think AT MINIMUM they're viable.

My games also tend to go a lot faster (when I'm not playing a slow deck) than people playing comparable games while using tokens. And I'm pretty sure it's because dice are just easier to handle and manipulate.


I don't think that "hate" is the correct term. I played many times against players who used dice and had no issues with this. OTOH if someone asks me what I think about using dice, I honestly answer that I don't like them.

Also YMMV, but IMVHO dice are sometimes messier. You have to pick it up, rotate to find the correct number and sometimes it takes a second or two.

To each his own. I don't complain and play against cool and really nice people. Usually it doesn't matter what they use to keep track of the game state. I ask about credits/hand size all the time
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Adam Perry
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i use color coded legos to count credits. the pips on top are how many credits they're worth. i use them in values of 1,2, and 4. they easily assemble into chunks of ten, and it's easy to click off things like armitage, adonis, kati, libaccounts, etc.....

if you use dice for credits, i will keep track of your credits seperately. i don't trust dice for credits at ALL.

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Zeb
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
This question is poorly worded, I don't care for it when my opponents use dice, but its certainly a viable method. I don't understand how you could truthfully answer "no" to this question. People have done it without exploding, it must be viable.

The only time that i use dice is when token counts get out of control (e.g. someone lands a midseason for 15)



I think the majority of people ignored the actual wording of the question and voted according to preference.

I think tokens and opaque, contrasting d6 are equal when it comes to credits, but dice are superior for datasucker, atman, draco, ice wall, etc. It's nice to play atman and putting a d6 over the strength number. Likewise, d6 are much easier for Armitage, Kati, Eve, etc.

The biggest problem I've come across with dice is Psi games. You really need tokens and sometimes you forget to take the credits you spent.

 
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