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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: Outlaw verus Minecart. Honest value discussion rss

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Trevor Whiton
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I am at outlaw level right now. I am debating a bump to Mine Cart. Going from $150 to $400+ is kinda freaking me out.

Couple of questions / opinions sought:

(1) The only "exclusive" KS backers get is Outlaw, Correct?
(2) Everything listed on mine cart will be available at retail?
(3) Won't most retail item be available online at the traditional discount? Non backers can technically now get both games for about $130 at CSI with free shipping (I know Outlaw @$150 has more bonuses, but the Mine Cart items bonus only seems to be discount and completion).
(4) What is the ultimate value / goal of Mine Craft Level? Do I lose anything by simply waiting and buying retail at online discount? Do I really save that much going Mine cart versus just waiting?

In a way it seems you get more bang for buck at Outlaw than if you upgrade to Mine Craft. Assuming retail discounts from on line vendors. What am I missing?

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Scott Everts
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From one of the updates they indicated the Mine Cart might lose them money. There is a ton of content in the Min Cart and backers get it months to years earlier then the retail versions. I expect that stuff might go for big bucks on eBay later for those that don't want to wait and missed the KS.

As for Outlaw class, that's the only exclusive as I understand.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Also remember that with Minecart you'll get an extra set of all the mini's from the core box's. Of course you can get that also by bumping up to that $225 level.

I always thought the MSRP's they listed for the items on the KS page were a little high. Now they say the mini's cost them more than they thought. Factor in OLGS discounted prices, and who knows.

Now they say that the items will be released to retail over a course of a few years, namely because they don't think retail wants to carry a whole SoB line of items. But if the game takes off, that could change.

By getting Minecart I feel you are still getting everything at a good price and you will get it sooner than retail. How much sooner is the question.

And will you even need it soon with all the stuff? Will your group move past the game before you can even get everything out to the table. Will you like the game enough to keep playing?

Most importantly, do you even want everything being offered in the MC level? I added up the cost of the (to me) overpriced add-ons and realized I was at the MC price level, so I just nabbed one. If you don't even care for half the MC stuff, it may not be worth it.

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Scott Everts
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I did the same thing. I originally backed the 2 core boxes only and after adding up all the add-ons it was clear it was far more cost effective to back a Mine Cart level.

FFP will probably release a bunch of themed box sets of the various items over the next few years and they will probably be quite expensive. I do feel in this one instance that it was cheaper to get a Mine Cart. Usually its worth waiting for retail but they appeared to have miscalculated how much the minis would cost so I'm sure they will make it up later in the expansion sets. So we might of actually gotten a deal. Look at the games by CMON Limited. They go for a fortune after the KS and it seems a lot of people now just buy them to flip them on eBay later. Could happen here.

But also, do we need so much stuff? Definitely not. Considering my game group usually plays a game once or maybe a few times if its really good, the core boxes were probably enough. I don't regret spending $500 and seems the buzz has been really good. But my biggest job will be figuring out storage and I kind of want to paint it.

This is definitely a "lifestyle" game and I've been slowing down game purchases this year in anticipation of playing this and the many other games that haven't been to the table yet.
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Joel Carr
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I do not want all the MC stuff. I would like it...most of it, but it is not necessary. I am adding on a few items. but mainly I wish for more enemies or to complete 'sets' of enemies eg Scafford gang. But I will happily wait to add things via retail later depending on how much play time SoB gets.
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Gavin Downing
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algernon68 wrote:
I am at outlaw level right now. I am debating a bump to Mine Cart. Going from $150 to $400+ is kinda freaking me out.

Couple of questions / opinions sought:

(1) The only "exclusive" KS backers get is Outlaw, Correct?
(2) Everything listed on mine cart will be available at retail?
(3) Won't most retail item be available online at the traditional discount? Non backers can technically now get both games for about $130 at CSI with free shipping (I know Outlaw @$150 has more bonuses, but the Mine Cart items bonus only seems to be discount and completion).
(4) What is the ultimate value / goal of Mine Craft Level? Do I lose anything by simply waiting and buying retail at online discount? Do I really save that much going Mine cart versus just waiting?

In a way it seems you get more bang for buck at Outlaw than if you upgrade to Mine Craft. Assuming retail discounts from on line vendors. What am I missing?



1/2: Correct. Everything else will eventually be available at retail. How it's packaged is anyone's guess, or if some things will be grouped together (such as the various Scafford Gang enemies grouped together). (And even the Outlaw rules maybe made available, potentially; just not the cards/mini.)

3: We don't know, because we don't know how they'll be made available. Traditionally, their card-expansions are only sold on their own webstore, and not by retailers. I don't don't have any reason to suspect that any of the miniatures will be webstore exclusives like that, but it's impossible to say, simply because it's up to the Frogs to determine how they're selling it and through which retailers.

4: In my mind (I'm mine-cart), the ultimate value is a few things. I won't need to wait for official release to start playing with some of those expansions. I know I'll enjoy all the expansions, so I'm glad to get them all sooner. It's also one heck of a deal.

Dollar for dollar, mini for mini, the Outlaw IS a better deal, it's true, just due to those stretch goals. It's an insane value at the Outlaw level. But Mine Cart is still an amazing deal, and I'm getting some great additions to the game by going Mine Cart. That's why I made the upgrade.
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Scott Everts
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One of the things FFP did to entice people to the Mine Cart was having incomplete sets in the stretch goals that were completed in the Add-ons. Annoying for those that weren't "all in" and wanted all of them (like Scafford Gang). I bet those sets will be boxed together either at retail or exclusive to their web store.

Though this is all speculation until we know more. And FFP doesn't talk about anything until they are ready. We won't know until they are near ready to ship.
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Irish Man
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So my deal is this: I dont want all of Minecart. I dont really want Trederra, nor the Blasted Wastes. However, to get all the things I *do* want is about $100 bucks shy of minecart. So i dont know if I should just go ahead and upgrade fully to minecart, and then sell off the bits I dont want.

Its SO MUCH..... So many figures to be painted. So many games to be played.
 
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John Belcher
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I wish I would have backed at any level, and while I'm wishing anyways, I wish I would have backed at Minecart. Well... one of the early Minecart levels. The $480 priced Minecart -does- seem like a lot. $325-$350 seems a lot more "Must Have!" (obviously).

It's just a -ton- of stuff. A -ton-. (EDIT: I count, like, $600 worth of stuff by their "add on" prices.)

... Although, hell, Outlaw (with all the stretch goals) is still just an insane amount of stuff.

*continues contemplating things that don't matter, and aren't even options anymore*
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Joanna G
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i was crunching numbers earlier today for the same reason. at outlaw now and debating mc.

the msrp costs of the blue add-ons total: $782
the ffp ks prices of the same add-ons total: $644 (which is ~18% off)
csi's usual 33% off the msrp prices: ~$524

the cost of the minecart (minus the outlaw pledge, since we are just looking at add-on values) is $480-225 = $255 (using deluxe outlaw since MC and deluxe include the duplicate red sprue figures). So $255 for all the add-ons. ($330 if you don't care about the red sprues) $255 is ~73% off the msrp cost of the add-ons. or 58% off if you don't care about the red sprues.

so:

MC 9 = an additional $330 (or $255 if you have deluxe)
CSI = $524
Add-on in PM = $644
full est msrp = $782
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The Rake
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I was struggling with this same issue. As much as I would like to have everything by upgrading from Outlaw to Mine Cart I just don't see myself using all of that stuff so spending the money on it would be a waste. I will buy some of the stuff I want either through the PM or at retail and I'm sure I will not spend as much as the MC price and I will still have plenty of stuff to play with for a long time.
 
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Sebastian Bludd
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It's easy to forget just how many stretch goals are included in an Outlaw pledge. Not counting the base sets or variant figures, Outlaw stretch goals include: 16 new enemy types (including the just-announced Frontier Bandits), 3 hero classes, 4 allies, an additional Otherworld, and 120 cards (split between various mini-expansion decks).

That being said, I plan on picking up a few things to round out some of the Outlaw items: Scafford, Dark Stone Brutes, Succubi, maybe the Raptor and/or Guardian. My big "splurge" item is going to be the Derelict Ship Otherworld and everything that comes with it. I don't really care about the Blasted Wastes, and I like Trederra okay, but I'm really excited to run around in a sci-fi/horror spaceship with my old west characters.

I figure that I'll have more than enough to keep me busy until I decide to pick up some of the other mission packs and/or heroes, especially since they seem more stand-alone and complete than some of the other content. My only fear is that they unveil something new in the pledge manager that's completely unexpected and awesome that completely wrecks my budget.
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Scott Everts
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Since I'll have $75 in credit to buy extra stuff I don't expect it will be hard to use it up. Just the paint sets will eat up $50 of it. And I want the darkstone plastic tokens and maybe some themed dice. There's also the spare bear if you want to run two Indian shamans. Actually I expect I'll easily have more then $75 of stuff I'll want!

And they hinted they'll be adding even more extras. I bet they will make a good chunk of change when the pledge manager goes live.
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Joanna G
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I know I definitely want all the hero classes, but if I don't upgrade to MC, I may just wait (and gamble) that they'll eventually be available through online stores like coolstuff.

I'm torn about a number of other add-ons - Trederra, Blasted Wastes, and especially Derelict Ship sound the most interesting to me, but those plus the figures that go with them and the heroes puts me at around $250+ worth of add-ons... so I'm like, well, just another $80 and it's a minecart. My hesitation with the MC is, well, it's A LOT of stuff, loads of minis that would need assembling and painting, plus where will I store all of it?!... and will I even play all of it? and $330 isn't much compared to $644, but sheesh, that's still almost $500 for a game I haven't played... plus if I get a mine cart now, I'll be even more annoyed at myself for not pledging for one last year (I'm still kicking myself for not nabbing a $325 MC the first day of the campaign...) OF COURSE... in a year or two down the road, I may end up kicking myself even MORE if I end up dropping even MORE on it because I didn't switch to MC now. *buufff* Maybe future self will time travel back to now and tell me what to do...
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Mike Mead
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First, let me say that I am a fan of FFP games. I have a very high certainty that this game is going to be as good as I think it will be. Also, I know we are talking about monetary value, but I have to put this out there - what if the game is not that good?

For me, that is the barrier between Outlaw and Mine Cart. It is hard to justify the $180 I'm going to spend (gotta have the Derilect ship otherworld), let alone the nearly $500 cost for the mine cart. I typically don't think about resale until I am ready to get rid of a game. Thus, for me, I am very happy to be a backer at the Outlaw level. I feel like I will have plenty of extra beyond the core sets to last me a long while, and I can then focus any extra money that I'm willing to put in on the game towards the specific aspects I truly like. Therefore, for those reasons, I'm standing firm at the Outlaw level.
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Drake Depew
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Dollar per dollar Outlaw is the better Pledge Value, almost certainly. The first $150 dollars is one of the best values I've seen in a game with over 160 miniatures for $150 dollars. There is no way you are going to beat that value for a board game. Only the Bones Miniature line did better, and that had no cards, no playtesting, no rules, no boards, no actual game and raised over twice what SoB raied.

In comparison the next $330 only gets you about 190 extra minis, with only 110 of those being unique add ons. You double the number of tile sets, but at over twice the cost. The cards don't come close to making up the difference in sheer dollar per game piece value.

That said it's still a great value, and if I had the money to spare I'd probably up my pledge level too. As it stands I think I'm still gonna drop another $117 on the extra worlds and the samurai character. I seriously doubt I'm gonna make it out of the pledge manager without at least $50 more from my pocket.
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Irish Man
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machosancho wrote:
First, let me say that I am a fan of FFP games. I have a very high certainty that this game is going to be as good as I think it will be. Also, I know we are talking about monetary value, but I have to put this out there - what if the game is not that good?


Well, some people have already got copies of the game, and are playing it, and have reviewed it. It has gotten some very positive reviews, but I suggest reading them here and seeing if you like how the game plays.
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Mike Mead
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irishman wrote:
machosancho wrote:
First, let me say that I am a fan of FFP games. I have a very high certainty that this game is going to be as good as I think it will be. Also, I know we are talking about monetary value, but I have to put this out there - what if the game is not that good?


Well, some people have already got copies of the game, and are playing it, and have reviewed it. It has gotten some very positive reviews, but I suggest reading them here and seeing if you like how the game plays.


I've read many of the reviews, and the positive vibe contributes to my expectation that I will love the game. However, I really will not know for sure until I bring it to my table.
 
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Mike Daneman
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I did a calculation during the Kickstarter to determine if The $475 MC was worth it. My criteria was that it should be cheaper than if I got all of the items at a 30% discount. The total msrp for MC, not including the double base set figures, was $789. With 30% discount that came out to $552. The MC7 cost of $400 (plus $75 credit) was definitely worth it. Even at $480 MC9 price (with no credit) it's still a good deal.

I should mention that my calculation was done before the base set retail price went up to $99, so it's an even better deal now.
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Julien Le Jeune
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Did anyone made the maths as to how many minis you're getting at MC?

 
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Shoogoo wrote:
Did anyone made the maths as to how many minis you're getting at MC?


A few times in the comments. It's over 300, I know that much, but it's worth noting that a pile of those are the red plastic duplicates.

Ugh, here we go.

32 minis per box, doubled with the red versions, comes to 128 minis for the core boxes plus duplicates.

Plus 80'ish figures in the stretch goals (including the Outlaw, terrain and whatnot, but things like the Mule and Dog ally don't specify if they're getting a figure), so that's 208(+?).

And what seems to be 113 (again, some are unclear, like the canon MC upgrade that is presumably 3 figures (2 guys and the gun), but doesn't say exactly), bringing us to around 321'ish (possibly more) figures.

But it's worth noting that not all figures are created equal. Some are tiny, some are enormous, and I'm not sure "omg 321 figures" really conveys just how huge some of these things are, and how important size, detail and whatnot are will vary from person to person.

Apologies if I'm slightly off, if someone else wants to go stare at the home page and correct me, be my guest.
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Ken H.
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If you're interested in the extra large monsters, Outlaw only has 4 (Goliath, Harbinger, Belial, and the Hydra). Minecart adds six more, for a total of 10. Admittedly, three of them are kind of similar (different riffs on the giant worms from Dune and/or Tremors), but the Dinosaur, Guardian, and Ancient One are must-haves, in my opinion.

I feel like the boss monsters will add more utility and re-playability to the game than the smaller monsters, since they will be part of the final epic battles.
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Adam Canning
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Shoogoo wrote:
Did anyone made the maths as to how many minis you're getting at MC?



Minecart/Outlaw

Monster types 46/25
Board Tiles 115/55
Total Figures 325+/148+

Normal 269+/124+ Includes 8/2 terrain pieces [6 decor+ 2 Pylons]
Large 41/20 Includes 8/0 terrain pieces [6 Doorways and 2 Gates]
XL 11/3
XXL 4/1


+ due to only counting 2 Frontier Bandits due to not knowing how many there will be.

Minecart includes at least 116 sculpts, outlaw at least 71.
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Julien Le Jeune
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Thanks both for the maths. 116 different sculpts? This game is completely crazy.
 
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Joanna G
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Rubric wrote:
If you're interested in the extra large monsters, Outlaw only has 4 (Goliath, Harbinger, Belial, and the Hydra). Minecart adds six more, for a total of 10. Admittedly, three of them are kind of similar (different riffs on the giant worms from Dune and/or Tremors), but the Dinosaur, Guardian, and Ancient One are must-haves, in my opinion.

I feel like the boss monsters will add more utility and re-playability to the game than the smaller monsters, since they will be part of the final epic battles.


Hmmn that's a good point... Was kindof a similar reason why at least getting the otherworlds and mission packs and all hero classes would be the best bc they are adding the most amount of replayability in my opinion. I prob need to do the math again, bc with the xl monsters added to the must have list, im prob at or over the cost of a mc now...
 
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