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Subject: Scottish Independence: How should Monkeyhandz vote? (POLL) rss

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Liam
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Well, probably, the biggest vote in my lifetime is close at hand (18th of September).

So RSP how should I vote? Feel free to add a comment if you wish.

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Scottish Independence: How should Monkeyhandz vote?
Aye!
Naw!
      115 answers
Poll created by monkeyhandz

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Tim P.
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The most poignant comment that I have heard is that, unlike a General Election, a 'Yes' vote is permanent. Done, forever and no going back. That is indeed an unusual event in many of our lives.

The vote should not be used as a protest vote against the current government, and there are lots of people all over the UK/World who dislike Cameron's mob as much as most of the residents of Scotland do.

Myself, I am for the Union, warts and all; the Scots have the strongest identify and culture of all the people of the UK. It would be a shame to lose them over Alex Salmonds thirst for more power. His oil-fueled Braveheart inspired vision of the future promises more than I think he can deliver.

What does surprise me is that the Government has no contingency plan to offer the Scots real concessions to keep them in the Union.

More regional power and representation for all of the UK's area, not just the Scots (but without going as far as the Federal nature of the USA please)

Tim

Edit: fixed typo


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I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.
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I'd say vote Ya, because well....Scotland!
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.


This is where I'm coming from. An independent Scotland means fewer resources for Scots. What they should be demanding rather than independence is equal representation, so they can retain the benefit of being part of a larger, more stable system, yet have a say in how that system is run.
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frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.

Why would Germany wage another war against any European countries when we already have complete economic control over the whole continent?
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ejmowrer wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.


This is where I'm coming from. An independent Scotland means fewer resources for Scots. What they should be demanding rather than independence is equal representation, so they can retain the benefit of being part of a larger, more stable system, yet have a say in how that system is run.


What do you mean equal representation? The same number of MPs? Scotland has about 1/12th the population as the rest of the UK. So I don't think that would work. British constituencies are worked out on a per head of population basis. Each MP represents approximately 68,175 people. The constituency boundaries are set by an independent body.
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I'd hold out until they clarify the question:

"Should Westminister be an independent country?"

We can then run the referendum throughout the entire UK.
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andyl wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.


This is where I'm coming from. An independent Scotland means fewer resources for Scots. What they should be demanding rather than independence is equal representation, so they can retain the benefit of being part of a larger, more stable system, yet have a say in how that system is run.


What do you mean equal representation? The same number of MPs? Scotland has about 1/12th the population as the rest of the UK. So I don't think that would work. British constituencies are worked out on a per head of population basis. Each MP represents approximately 68,175 people. The constituency boundaries are set by an independent body.


It was the same concern that led to the house vs. the senate in the US. If you only go by population, then issues and concerns unique to Scotland will usually just get steamrollered. The senate in the US is supposed to stabilize that somewhat, giving each state an equal say.
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ejmowrer wrote:
andyl wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.


This is where I'm coming from. An independent Scotland means fewer resources for Scots. What they should be demanding rather than independence is equal representation, so they can retain the benefit of being part of a larger, more stable system, yet have a say in how that system is run.


What do you mean equal representation? The same number of MPs? Scotland has about 1/12th the population as the rest of the UK. So I don't think that would work. British constituencies are worked out on a per head of population basis. Each MP represents approximately 68,175 people. The constituency boundaries are set by an independent body.


It was the same concern that led to the house vs. the senate in the US. If you only go by population, then issues and concerns unique to Scotland will usually just get steamrollered. The senate in the US is supposed to stabilize that somewhat, giving each state an equal say.


Well yes, but that isn't really compatible with a parliamentary democracy. I don't think there is a huge appetite (anywhere in the UK) to ditch parliamentary style democracy. The current thinking by the UK parties (as in those who have representation throughout mainland Britain) is to devolve more decision-making, and a lot more control of tax rates (and the money that taxes raise) to Scotland.
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andyl wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
andyl wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.


This is where I'm coming from. An independent Scotland means fewer resources for Scots. What they should be demanding rather than independence is equal representation, so they can retain the benefit of being part of a larger, more stable system, yet have a say in how that system is run.


What do you mean equal representation? The same number of MPs? Scotland has about 1/12th the population as the rest of the UK. So I don't think that would work. British constituencies are worked out on a per head of population basis. Each MP represents approximately 68,175 people. The constituency boundaries are set by an independent body.


It was the same concern that led to the house vs. the senate in the US. If you only go by population, then issues and concerns unique to Scotland will usually just get steamrollered. The senate in the US is supposed to stabilize that somewhat, giving each state an equal say.


Well yes, but that isn't really compatible with a parliamentary democracy. I don't think there is a huge appetite (anywhere in the UK) to ditch parliamentary style democracy. The current thinking by the UK parties (as in those who have representation throughout mainland Britain) is to devolve more decision-making, and a lot more control of tax rates (and the money that taxes raise) to Scotland.


His primary option as far as currency goes is to enter into a currency union with the UK; something he claims the scottish people are voting for. despite of course that the Scottish people do not get a say on the matter (or very little anyway). when asked for a plan B he says he has already given three plan Bs (which makes me think he cannot get passed B in the alphabet) but seems to refuse to tell people what those plans are. He claims we cannot stop them using the pound anyway; which is essentially saying "we want independence so we can set our own budgets and decide our own finances... but we dont want financial independence" which makes no sense.

Salmond is on a massive power trip. unfortunately a large proportion of the yes block are swallowing the crap he is feeding them.. being stuck here in norfolk i find very little that will directly impact me.. but i am somewhat worried that scotland is going to completely screw itself if it votes yes..

Salmond claims they will keep the pound (but they cant if they want to be part of the EU)
Salmond claims that scotland will already be a member of the EU (the EU says this isnt the case)
Salmond claims that if scotland isnt automatically part of the EU, that it will hold the same exception that the UK has with regards to joining the euro (the EU says this isnt the case either)
Salmond claims that they will reduce defense spending (but if they want to join NATO then they will have to increase it)
Salmond claims that they will survive for decades on north-sea oil. (but recent forcasts show there isnt as much as he says there. further, standard sea border designation makes even less of it scottish than the line Salmond likes to draw on a map. even further the Shetlands vote independently and could chose to remain in the UK and half of it would be staying british)
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Leo Zappa
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I think in the end Scotland loses more than it gains with independence. I'd vote no.
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Moshe Callen
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desertfox2004 wrote:
I think in the end Scotland loses more than it gains with independence. I'd vote no.
Unless they are distancing themselves from England in order to more greatly integrate into the EU, which is exactly what I took them to be doing.
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whac3 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
I think in the end Scotland loses more than it gains with independence. I'd vote no.
Unless they are distancing themselves from England in order to more greatly integrate into the EU, which is exactly what I took them to be doing.


the whole argument of the yes side is riddled with inconsistencies.

We want to be independent (but not financially independent)
We want to lower military spending (but we want to join NATO)
We want more autonomy (but we want to be closer to europe)

all in all i think leaving the UK is incredibly risky.. there is no guarantee of them getting into the EU any time soon. they dont even know what currency they will have in the meantime or how much of it they will have. they dont know how much oil they will have (although it wont be as much as they say it will). they dont even know how open the border with england will be. there is a possibility (not too likely i admit) that people will have to go through border checks..

then there is the massive headache of actually sorting out the finances and who pays who.. it will be a nightmare for a lot of people, english and scots; and one that probably wont pay off for them in the long run.
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whac3 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
I think in the end Scotland loses more than it gains with independence. I'd vote no.
Unless they are distancing themselves from England in order to more greatly integrate into the EU, which is exactly what I took them to be doing.


Except they don't want to join the Euro but keep the Pound. They also can't join the Schengen area either.

This has absolutely nothing to do with European integration and everything to do with resentment of the "English bastards" who a certain element of the Scottish public like to blame for everything. No doubt this same element will still blame all Scotlands woes on the sassanachs even after independence.

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Jon_1066 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
I think in the end Scotland loses more than it gains with independence. I'd vote no.
Unless they are distancing themselves from England in order to more greatly integrate into the EU, which is exactly what I took them to be doing.


Except they don't want to join the Euro but keep the Pound. They also can't join the Schengen area either.

This has absolutely nothing to do with European integration and everything to do with resentment of the "English bastards" who a certain element of the Scottish public like to blame for everything. No doubt this same element will still blame all Scotlands woes on the sassanachs even after independence.


Hm, yeah. Doesn't sound good.
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I am not entirely sure how the Shengen area works; but it is clear that that scotland would not be covered by it. There would be no automatic right to travel between england/scotland even if you worked just over the border. In the UK we need to prove that we are a UK or EU citizen to be able to work (or have special dispensation ie for students). if you stop being an EU or UK citizen you have no automatic right to keep your job; you could also be let go immediately with no hope of appeal as you (or the company you work for) are not part of the EU. Hopefully of course we will have some free trade/travel agreements.

Scotland will need to rush to join the EU (and the euro) to have much chance. although the EU may not be so accepting as scotland thinks. Spain in particular does not want its citizens to think that they can just up and leave and still get accepted easily into the EU; if the Ukraine joins then they would likely object as well. even so, it has been made pretty clear that scotland would need to reapply to join the EU (and NATO).

also, the map below shows the oilfields that Salmond says they will own (i circled them in black) however the actual amount they will own is significantly less (the lightly shaded area) unless the islands follow them in a separate (held at same time) referendum.

even then those platforms in the shaded zone are not guaranteed to be scottish as the platforms built were funded by the UK tax payer (not just scottish taxpayers) so the UK also has a claim, certainly to the infrastructure.

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also the UK could attempt to enforce current UK sea boarders (this is actually quite likely) which follows the diagonal line in the following image. Salmond claims everything north of the maritime boundary (prior to 1999) is scottish. unfortunately for them the UK already redesignated boundaries 15years ago. it now (the diagonal line) falls under what i believe to be standard international methods of assigning sea borders (parallel to the mean land border between the two countries).

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ejmowrer wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.


This is where I'm coming from. An independent Scotland means fewer resources for Scots. What they should be demanding rather than independence is equal representation, so they can retain the benefit of being part of a larger, more stable system, yet have a say in how that system is run.


Interesting that on NPR this morning Irving Welsh said that Scotland was a resource rich country and talked about a report ( or news item, something) that indicated that Scotland should be in the top 20 in Europe for wealth.
Needless to say he is voting yes.
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As someone with some scottish ancestry, the idea sounds cool, but everything I've read makes it sound like a very bad idea as a practical matter for the people of Scotland.
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rylfrazier wrote:
As someone with some scottish ancestry, the idea sounds cool, but everything I've read makes it sound like a very bad idea as a practical matter for the people of Scotland.


Can I use your quote for my answer?
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Simon Mueller wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.

Why would Germany wage another war against any European countries when we already have complete economic control over the whole continent?


Maybe Scotland should join Germany instead. That would blow some minds.
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femgoth wrote:
...
also, the map below shows the oilfields that Salmond says they will own (i circled them in black) however the actual amount they will own is significantly less (the lightly shaded area) unless the islands follow them in a separate (held at same time) referendum.

...


Have you got any links for this as I can't find any info on it (except a petition to have a further referendum after this one that was turned down by the Scottish Government)

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TheChin! wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
frumpish wrote:
I haven't done much studying on the issue, but it seems to me like larger states are likely more stable than smaller ones.

I know for myself that I would rather be a part of GB the next time Germany decides to try and take over the subcontinent than small and alone like Belgium.

Why would Germany wage another war against any European countries when we already have complete economic control over the whole continent?


Maybe Scotland should join Germany instead. That would blow some minds.

Great idea! I mean, who can tell the difference?


Scotsman German
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