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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: A Question of Fairness rss

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Ryan Stripling
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Lowell
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Last night I had quite a memorable gaming session, but at the end I am left with a question about how to resolve an issue and thought I'd see what others thought.

We were playing our last Act II quest of the LoR campaign, Tipping the Scales, and due to some horrible luck and occasional poor play, I was against the ropes and the heroes were near victory. The heroes need to add weights of equal amounts to two different locations, and they only needed to place the last weight and they would win. Logan took the weight from another hero and moved into position. Next turn is all I'd have, and I need three lucky breaks.

Luck favored me, at last, and I was able to eke out a win. However, after we had packed up we were discussing the quest and something occurred to me. I looked at the quest rules again and realized that Logan could have placed the weight in his last turn (we had thought that taking the weight from the other hero was an action, but it wasn't, leaving him a last action to place it). Cursed by honesty, I conceded that we had misplayed and we looked over if there was anything I could have done. I talked about playing grease trap to put Logan out of the way or out of commission, but we realized that even if I had been successful, the trap wouldn’t move him enough away and wouldn’t kill him (side question: can heroes move through other heroes with a grease trap, assuming they have enough movement to end in an empty space? We assumed that they could.). But we never had him roll the dice, but if he had and had passed the test, he would have had to suffer a fatigue, which is what he used for his final movement point to be in place to drop the weight.

The issue is that I didn’t realize this until this morning, after looking at the card again. So, is it fair, in your minds, for me to ask for a roll of the dice to finally determine a victor?

Arguments for:
-I did concede defeat after we had packed up the quest, so perhaps the heroes should be similarly lenient.
-We didn’t actually play out the results as we should have last night, and if we had and the card had been in front of me as I played it, I would have (I think) caught the loss of fatigue.
-It’s not like I’m wanting to play any extra cards or anything new. I just want to play out what we talked through as we should have originally.
-I hate losing :-) 

Arguments against:
-In the words of one of the hero players, this is essentially Monday morning quarterbacking. The statute of limitations on dealing with this ended once they left the house (In response, I would say I would have conceded defeat whenever I realized it).
-I should have forced the roll last night and noticed it last night. Not doing so is on me.
-The heroes haven’t won many quests, and this gives them a chance for winning the campaign, which makes for a more competitive and perhaps more enjoyable finale.

Ultimately, whatever I and my other players agree upon is fair, if we can come to an agreement. And I’ll probably concede if I can’t convince one of them to vote my way (they’re a fair group, but of course this is a hard issue to decide without personal interest clouding both sides). But still, what do you guys think? What would be fair in your eyes?
-ryanjamal
 
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Brian M
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Since it sounds pretty murky, you could just give both sides the bonus for winning and roll a die for which side gets to pick the next quest. Just call the one you just played a tie.
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Kolby Reddish
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If you forgot it, it's on you man. Just give them the win, and stomp them in the finale.
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Rafal Areinu
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Everyone forgot. The rules should be read by all players(usually one player does it aloud). It's up to heroes to remember stuff as important to them. If you played the quest with that mistake done consistently then the outcome you got was the outcome you should have gotten.

Hey, it's Descent. You probably are also making some rule mistakes that profit heroes. Just try to play closer to rules as intended every time and that's fair enough.

But that comes from our "what's done is done" policy on the table. If we realize we did a mistake turn or two ago then we don't rollback, and we keep doing that mistake until end of the quest.
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Markus
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I think you should just let it go.
 
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Isaias Santillano
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Ryan Stripling
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So, to be clear, the consensus is that we should replay that moment to see who would have won, right? :-)

I'll let it go I suppose... maybe.
-ryanjamal
 
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Curtis Delaney
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At our table, if we realize a misplayed rule or such, we do NOT roll back, but from the point forward, we play correctly.

Except one game, where nobody realized the Knight should have been exhausting his Advance skill the whole time. . . we rolled that one back, just a tad. Yeah. That sucked.
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Ryan Stripling
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StormKnight wrote:
Since it sounds pretty murky, you could just give both sides the bonus for winning and roll a die for which side gets to pick the next quest. Just call the one you just played a tie.
In this campaign, I've actually done this before (though I did it not for ambiguity of who won, but as a handicap since they're newer players), but in this case that wouldn't work since the rewards determine which finale to play, though there's also the extra money and XP awarded. But I went ahead and conceded, so I guess I'll just let this one slide.
-ryanjamal
 
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Johannes Benedikt
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I would rule for more excitement.

If the OL has a big advantage, give it to the heroes, otherwise give it to the OL. If it's very close give it to the less expirienced, otherwise no one (relic) or both (XP, gold) get the reward or let the heroes decide between quest-choice and rewards.

This seems to be so close that any bad/good dice roll could've changed the outcome, which means both parties could've won. However you did win the quest played by consistent rules everybody agreed on and could've read themselves when their turn was over, which means you should be allowed to call the winner.
The "only what was happening that night counts" is a cheap argument however, especially when you are playing a campaign across weeks or months, where every game night influences the next.

In the end the game is boring if any party has a huge advantage and I guess it's in the best interest of everyone to set up the finale as close and exciting as possible, otherwise the win would be more of a formality than an exciting battle and why waste your time on boring formalities if you could have an exciting time instead right?
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David Williams
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The mistake was their as much as yours so responsibility is equal. You're the one who noticed and corrected it, and since the rules were effectively changed mid-game many groups wouldn't have done even this (see above).

However going back and rolling dice gets a bit daft I think. What if they see some other ability their other hero could have done, which adds yet another complication?

I guess I might point out that I did still have some chance, but I would say "Nevermind, I conceded, so lets move on!". I might secretly hope they would offer a draw, but I wouldn't pursue it. Not worth falling out over, especially if they have been struggling and this would take away a hard-fought win and moment of victory for them. It's supposed to be fun for everyone, there's no cash prize, right?

But if they don't, I'd suggest you just let it go and whatever happens in the finale, you know you did it with your integrity intact.
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Spencer Myers
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I can see where you're coming from. If you'd proposed the roll to determine outcomes last night during the discussion I would say you had a case to make, but as it stands I believe it all comes to this:

You conceded the win to the heroes, both sides agreed to your proposal and enough time passed that the game has now moved forward to the next stage.

I hate it when my defeat stems from my own negligence, but then when I goof up it is a chance to learn and resolve not to make the same mistake twice. Next time I imagine you'll go through all the possibilities before deciding to concede your victory.
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Ryan Stripling
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spencer_myers wrote:
I can see where you're coming from. If you'd proposed the roll to determine outcomes last night during the discussion I would say you had a case to make, but as it stands I believe it all comes to this:

You conceded the win to the heroes, both sides agreed to your proposal and enough time passed that the game has now moved forward to the next stage.

I hate it when my defeat stems from my own negligence, but then when I goof up it is a chance to learn and resolve not to make the same mistake twice. Next time I imagine you'll go through all the possibilities before deciding to concede your victory. ;)
I agree, and this is ultimately where the other players and I settled. I think it will make for a more exciting finale, anyways.
-ryanjamal
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