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Space Empires: 4X» Forums » Rules

Subject: DMs and WPs rss

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Chris McKerron
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Do DMs use WPs or would they be attracted to a ship through a WP?
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Niko
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17.4 says that terrain other than asteroids and planets do not affect DMs and the solo scenarios also say that DMs are unaffected by system markers. It seems weird to me that they can fly through supernovas yet not through warp points, but that's how I interpret the rules.

In the end it's really up to you and the other players though. As long as you agree on a ruling either way before the game either choice will work.
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Kimmo Viitanen
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
17.4 says that terrain other than asteroids and planets do not affect DMs and the solo scenarios also say that DMs are unaffected by system markers. It seems weird to me that they can fly through supernovas yet not through warp points, but that's how I interpret the rules.


I wonder if it really should say "DMs have no effect on any other terrain" and not "Any other terrain has no effect on DMs." Because, planets and asteroids don't really have any effect on DMs to begin with, other than movement, and the section is talking about the effects DMs have on systems.

16.5 says: "Warp points are considered adjacent in every way, including retreats." So I'd say DMs use warp points.
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Niko
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Singbird wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
17.4 says that terrain other than asteroids and planets do not affect DMs and the solo scenarios also say that DMs are unaffected by system markers. It seems weird to me that they can fly through supernovas yet not through warp points, but that's how I interpret the rules.

I wonder if it really should say "DMs have no effect on any other terrain" and not "Any other terrain has no effect on DMs." Because, planets and asteroids don't really have any effect on DMs to begin with, other than movement, and the section is talking about the effects DMs have on systems.

16.5 says: "Warp points are considered adjacent in every way, including retreats." So I'd say DMs use warp points.

Yeah, that gave me pause too. However, between the "Terrain has no effect" and the part from the solo rules that specifically says that DMs are unaffected by system markers (admittedly a weak argument, since it's the solo rules and the warp point doesn't really affect the DM) I'd probably still say that RAW is that they don't.

As for why the current wording is used; I believe that it's mainly with regard to danger tokens, nebulae, and supernovas, which all do not affect the DMs.
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Kimmo Viitanen
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:

As for why the current wording is used; I believe that it's mainly with regard to danger tokens, nebulae, and supernovas, which all do not affect the DMs.


Right, of course! Curiously, the unofficial FAQ says asteroids do affect the DM attack class. Doesn't say where it got this information, though. It all hinges on what is "terrain", I suppose. Sadly, this seems the only place in the rulebook the word is used... Sounds like a contradiction.

I'd still make them use Warp points. I'd argue that the wording is there so you cannot cheese a DM into a black hole or other negative effects. A Warp point is not inherently negative and would only serve to make the game more interesting by allowing greater movement for the DMs.
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Chris McKerron
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Yes, I have been going back and forth over 17.4 and 16.5. The question is how can a DM see through a WP and know there are units on the other side to guide its movement? If a DM is next to a WP and say there is another WP on the other side of the board with a unit on it, does it randomly move one hex or does it use its two hex movement to go through the WP and attack? I pm'd the designer on this question. Perhaps we will get an answer.

BTW your file Kimmo....question is for another game I am in.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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FWIW I have never had DMs use Warp Points, but I can see the argument for why they could. Please don't feel limited by the way I have played it. You know I encourage house rules.
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Chris McKerron
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Thanks for your imput Jim.
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